Sweden has some relatively well know race problems.
Although the quote from one the effected people calling this a "last fight against communism" leads me to think they might not have the most sensible view of what's going on either.
Sweden has some relatively well know race problems.
Although the quote from one the effected people calling this a "last fight against communism" leads me to think they might not have the most sensible view of what's going on either.
I get something of a similar impresion. But they do seem to have a point as there does seem to be issues in Sweeden over Jewdaism.
Last edited Wed Feb 1, 2012 2:15 pm (Total Number of Edits: 1)
I think it's a good idea to allow or make exceptions for groups that might be at more risk in the public than others (like for racism), but I don't think home schooling is a particularly effective way to bring about change in the long term (as well as the issues I have with home schooling in general).
Having gone to schools (very good schools) that were faith based (albeit not strongly), I'm very firmly against faith based education. At best, it somewhat isolates groups from the rest of the world and other ideas, and it's generally and very easily used as a way to get one group of kids, generally from affluent backgrounds, a better education.
My school for example was in a relatively poor area of town, and yet had a student population coming from fairly well off families on average, purely due to the fact it had some system of selection.
I think not allowing home-schooling on religious grounds is a great idea.
Why exactly?
I'm not a huge fan of any religiously-based schooling. And I say this as a former pupil of a faith school.
I was pretty alarmed when a Saudi-funded moslem school in London was found to be teaching pure, vile anti-semitism a year or so back. Down with that sort of thing.
I have no problem with publicly-mandated schooling being secular. The religious stuff can take place in the home. Out of school hours. Where it belongs.
If the Swedes have laws against homeschooling then those should apply to everyone. So it does not seem a case of Sweden 'banning' jewish home schooling rather then an effort to uphold existing law.
If some do not like this laws, the normal democratic avenues are open to them to try and chnage them. Until such time, they too need to abide bythat law.
I don't see how the religous affiliation of people involved here have any bearing on this. If the current action is motivated by prejudice, then that is an issue that deserves attention. The fact that everyone is bound by the laws of the state in which they reside is not.
EDIT: It would be interesting to know the motivation behind the ban on homeschooling, but I am reasonably confident anti-semitism isnot one of them (but I could be wrong)
I like to exchange ideas but I have no interest in a pissing contest.
If you want me to review your game, just GM me and send me a copy. Abstracts, wargames and euros equally welcome. No party or dexterity games please.
Fwing wrote:
whac3 wrote:
Fwing wrote:
I think not allowing home-schooling on religious grounds is a great idea.
Why exactly?
I'm not a huge fan of any religiously-based schooling. And I say this as a former pupil of a faith school.
I was pretty alarmed when a Saudi-funded moslem school in London was found to be teaching pure, vile anti-semitism a year or so back. Down with that sort of thing.
I have no problem with publicly-mandated schooling being secular. The religious stuff can take place in the home. Out of school hours. Where it belongs.
You haven't said why there shouldn't be religious home-schooling.
I like to exchange ideas but I have no interest in a pissing contest.
If you want me to review your game, just GM me and send me a copy. Abstracts, wargames and euros equally welcome. No party or dexterity games please.
Venga2 wrote:
If the Swedes have laws against homeschooling then those should apply to everyone. So it does not seem a case of Sweden 'banning' jewish home schooling rather then an effort to uphold existing law.
If some do not like this laws, the normal democratic avenues are open to them to try and chnage them. Until such time, they too need to abide bythat law.
I don't see how the religous affiliation of people involved here have any bearing on this. If the current action is motivated by prejudice, then that is an issue that deserves attention. The fact that everyone is bound by the laws of the state in which they reside is not.
I strongly suspect that these are foreign citizens, without a local vote, but fulfilling the same local and international requirements they have been working under quite legally for nigh-on twenty years.
I do not tolerate kids being taught in exclusive, religious schools, whether those are home-schools or not. Every child has a right to secular education. Parents have all evenings and weekends to do their religious/political/whatever indoctrination of their children. If this was just about homeschooling, I'd be divided, but if it's homeschooling on religious grounds then the alarm bells ring high and loud. Same as if someone kept their children outside public school in order to make them good socialists/conservatives/anarchists/nazists whatever. Children aren't owned by their parents; they're owned by themselves. Because we have religious freedom, children should not be allowed to be isolated within one certain religious context from the day they're born.
The article also mentions restrictions on meat preparation. I personally have no idea which kind of animal slaughter is the more painful, but I don't doubt that any restrictions on koscher/halal is purely out of care for the animals. If it was entirely up to me, regular "secular" abuse of animals should be banned as well. (That said, when the Nationalist party wants to go even tougher on cultural slaughtering practices, I doubt their intentions are sincere.)
The article also mentions proposed bans on circumcision. That is not disrespecting a religion, that is respecting the integrity of the children. We don't allow people (not even parents) to mutilate children (even if the parents were cut by their own parents). Let people go and have their foreskins removed on their 18th birthday if they wish, same as for piercing the ears.
But I give the article authors right in that antisemitism is a very real problem in Sweden, and won't argue if someone says it's worse here than in other places. It could be because 1) We were on Hitler's side but not auspiciously enough to be purged for it, hence it hasn't been outrooted enough 2) We have a large Muslim population who have good reasons to dislike the state of Israel, something which easily (and unfortunately) spill over into anti-semitism 3) We have a political tradition of standing up for oppressed people everywhere, from Vietnam to South Africa to Palestine. There is definitely a "marriage" between some leftists and some Muslim activists, and I'm afraid that the antisemitism in Malmö, a city rich with both leftists and Muslims, is not a coincidence.
But explanations are not excuses; there is no excuse for racism, including antisemitism. It must be fought at every corner. But that fight is not fought with scalpels and homeschooling. On the contrary, publicly monitored schooling with a democratic curriculum teaching kids about historical conflicts and world religions from a neutral point of view is precisely the best way to fight racism. And that schooling should involve all kids. Indeed, excluding kids of one particular race, religion or nationality from the law - that would be racism. This is no racist country so kids of all sorts have to go to school, including Orthodox Jews. The parents are free to spend all night telling them that much of what they learned during the day are lies. And then the kids can make up their own mind. That's religious freedom.
If the Swedes have laws against homeschooling then those should apply to everyone. So it does not seem a case of Sweden 'banning' jewish home schooling rather then an effort to uphold existing law.
If some do not like this laws, the normal democratic avenues are open to them to try and chnage them. Until such time, they too need to abide bythat law.
I don't see how the religous affiliation of people involved here have any bearing on this. If the current action is motivated by prejudice, then that is an issue that deserves attention. The fact that everyone is bound by the laws of the state in which they reside is not.
I strongly suspect that these are foreign citizens, without a local vote, but fulfilling the same local and international requirements they have been working under quite legally for nigh-on twenty years.
You should still be subject to the laws of the host nation. If they have been given leeway that others have not been then that would be unfair.
Just to point out that Sweden isn't exceptional: as I understand it, in Germany homeschooling is also banned. This is a general ban and has nothing to do with religion. However, one of the groups that dislikes it the most is Russian Baptists. I've also heard of English speaker expats trying to challenge this law.
I appreciate the fact that I live in a country that respects religious freedom. Stories like this make me appreciate it even more.
So, which would give these kids (not their parents) more religious freedom: that they spend all their life in a context similar to the one below, or that the "education" below was completed with a standard one, giving them two reference points to relate to?
I think not allowing home-schooling on religious grounds is a great idea.
Why exactly?
I'm not a huge fan of any religiously-based schooling. And I say this as a former pupil of a faith school.
I was pretty alarmed when a Saudi-funded moslem school in London was found to be teaching pure, vile anti-semitism a year or so back. Down with that sort of thing.
I have no problem with publicly-mandated schooling being secular. The religious stuff can take place in the home. Out of school hours. Where it belongs.
You haven't said why there shouldn't be religious home-schooling.
Bolded for you. I think children should be allowed to grow up without being indoctrinated into a religion.
I know. Not the most popular idea. But there you go.
Why am I not suprised to see the rightists defending the right to ignore the law?
Tell you what you ignore the laws you want with impunity and I'll ignore the ones I want, can I have your address.
I'm not defending the right to ignore the law. I'm disappointed that so many people in this thread agree with this law. I appreciate the fact that I live in a country that respects religious freedom. Stories like this make me appreciate it even more.
What good would my address do you? Are you threatening me or something?
It does not restict your freedome of religion, it restricts your right to force it on your kids.
As to askiing for your address, its what we British call a joke (you may have heard of them).
So, which would give these kids (not their parents) more religious freedom: that they spend all their life in a context similar to the one below, or that the "education" below was completed with a standard one, giving them two reference points to relate to?
Wow. What a ridiculous outlier to throw out there. I'm not sure how to even have a conversation with someone who thinks the government should have veto power over the wishes of the parent when it comes to educating their own children. That's such a despicable idea to me.
Just in case you missed it: A "Jesus Camp" like the one above is perfectly legal here. It just has to be completed with normal school.
Now answer the question: "Which gives kids more religious freedom, Jesus Camp School or Normal School + Jesus Camp School?"
If the Swedes have laws against homeschooling then those should apply to everyone. So it does not seem a case of Sweden 'banning' jewish home schooling rather then an effort to uphold existing law.
If some do not like this laws, the normal democratic avenues are open to them to try and chnage them. Until such time, they too need to abide bythat law.
I don't see how the religous affiliation of people involved here have any bearing on this. If the current action is motivated by prejudice, then that is an issue that deserves attention. The fact that everyone is bound by the laws of the state in which they reside is not.
I strongly suspect that these are foreign citizens, without a local vote, but fulfilling the same local and international requirements they have been working under quite legally for nigh-on twenty years.
I suspect you are right, in which case the questions shifts to why the Goteburg municipality cares all off the sudden. If the case just came to their attention then its fair play. If the are seeking ways to 'get at' jews then that is an umitigated bad. As Harald explained, Sweden is by no means free of racism.
However if it is fair play, the discussion shifts to whether or not home schooling can or should be banned (as I believe NL has similar regulations as Sweden). I am so far undecided myself, not having put too much thought into it yet.
It does not restict your freedome of religion, it restricts your right to force it on your kids.
Oh good grief. What a silly statement.
Why, does this law stop parents teaching your kids about religion? or does it just mean that the kids are exposed to more then just the ignorance and prejudice of thier parents. So they get a balanced view, you tell tehym your bollocks and schools tell them thiers and the kids a free (yes free) to make up thier own minds (what a terrible idea that must be).
I like to exchange ideas but I have no interest in a pissing contest.
If you want me to review your game, just GM me and send me a copy. Abstracts, wargames and euros equally welcome. No party or dexterity games please.
I'm not sure what people here are picturing because this is labelled "religious" education. Probably it's something like either British relgious education or hard core indoctrination. That's not at all what is going on here.
A German student learn German literature, law, history and culture-- as well as international subjects like mathematics. Similarly a Swedish student learns Swedish literature, law, history and culture-- along with mathematics, etc.
Non-Jews and non-traditional forms of Judaism think of it as a religion. In fact, Judaism is an English rough equivalent of a word which means "Jewishness"-- namely, being a member of the Jewish people, a nation albeit not a country (and no, Israel is not relevant here). A Jewish education teaches the student the literature, history, Law and culture of the Jewish people as a nation-- as well as mathematics, etc.
Laws like this one try to form Jews to assimilate in the sense of adopting local culture and losing our own. If Jewish education is religious, then from our point of view so is the so-called secular education of Sweden, German, the UK, etc. It ust happens the "religion" is not Jewish.
I like to exchange ideas but I have no interest in a pissing contest.
If you want me to review your game, just GM me and send me a copy. Abstracts, wargames and euros equally welcome. No party or dexterity games please.
Fwing wrote:
whac3 wrote:
Fwing wrote:
whac3 wrote:
Fwing wrote:
I think not allowing home-schooling on religious grounds is a great idea.
Why exactly?
I'm not a huge fan of any religiously-based schooling. And I say this as a former pupil of a faith school.
I was pretty alarmed when a Saudi-funded moslem school in London was found to be teaching pure, vile anti-semitism a year or so back. Down with that sort of thing.
I have no problem with publicly-mandated schooling being secular. The religious stuff can take place in the home. Out of school hours. Where it belongs.
You haven't said why there shouldn't be religious home-schooling.
Bolded for you. I think children should be allowed to grow up without being indoctrinated into a religion.
I know. Not the most popular idea. But there you go.
No, I got what you said. It's just not relevant to the point.
If you want me to review your game, just GM me and send me a copy. Abstracts, wargames and euros equally welcome. No party or dexterity games please.
