Learn to swim, learn to swim, learn to swim, learn to swim..
United States Cleveland Heights Ohio
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fizzmore wrote: TheChin! wrote: No, I think he is saying you just can't teach your children that there are forms that are wrong. ...so you (or he) think the parents should not be allowed to teach that any sort of sexuality is wrong, is that right?
Not me, I think you are free to tech your kids whatever you want as long as it respects the rights of others and doesn't cause harm to your children. He is saying that we need to break the cycle of stereotypes by preventing parents from reinforcing them, either by religious means or just plain old edumakashun.
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Paul W
United States Eugene Oregon
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I was merely raising the point that (hopefully) we can all agree that some sexual behaviors are moral and others are immoral. He is of course, simply stating his desire that the state enforce his views on sexual morality as the correct ones when it comes to instruction...not to the point of having his view be the state-sponsored one, but beyond that forbidding the instruction of any view but that which he supports.
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Chad Ellis
United States Brookline Massachusetts
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fizzmore wrote: I was merely raising the point that (hopefully) we can all agree that some sexual behaviors are moral and others are immoral.
An interesting question is whether sexual behaviors that are immoral are immoral exclusively for reasons that aren't to do with sex, i.e. they are immoral because they involve force/coercion, violence, deception, reckless endangerment, etc.
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Learn to swim, learn to swim, learn to swim, learn to swim..
United States Cleveland Heights Ohio
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Chad_Ellis wrote: fizzmore wrote: I was merely raising the point that (hopefully) we can all agree that some sexual behaviors are moral and others are immoral. An interesting question is whether sexual behaviors that are immoral are immoral exclusively for reasons that aren't to do with sex, i.e. they are immoral because they involve force/coercion, violence, deception, reckless endangerment, etc.
I think that is where we would get more universal agreement for certain immoral acts. When someone tries to conflate unnatural (i.e. doesn't promote procreation) with immoral is where the consensus really starts to break down.
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Not Just Wrong- SPECTACULARLY WRONG.
Spain
Texas
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Alright-
What is this thread about now?
Is it about Jewish national identity in Israel?
Is it about proving Markmiwerdz is Chiddler?
Is it about homeschooling?
Or is it about how Chad is just generally oblivious, mostly because he shuttles over to Austin every day in order to live out his second life as my friend Jon Wolf, who really does look almost exactly like him???
(I hadn't seen Jon in about 7 months- certainly not since BGG.Con- and when I ran into Jon at work, for a moment I thought Chad had come by. True Story.)
Or is this just about how far we can disrupt the current topic into obscure reaches of ChitChatCanery?
Enquiring Minds Want to Know!!!
Darilian
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Shane Yeager
United States Medford Massachusetts
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chidler wrote:
Who is trying to sully my good name now?
Can you finally put to rest the rumors (sorry, rumours) that you require your wife to wear a wool sweater in order to engage in intercourse, in the interests of "feeling more natural?"
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Lynette
United States Richland Washington
Yep, I am a girl Scientist. Come for the breasts; Stay for the brains!
For as long as I shall live I will testify to love; I'll be a witness in the silences when words are not enough.
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slatersteven wrote: TheChin! wrote: slatersteven wrote: Stereotypes? The OP’s source has a link to this, http://jonahweb.org/index.php, site offering to rid people of unwanted same sex attraction. Why would someone not want to have a sexual attraction unless they had been taught its wrong? Why would the site be linked to unless this homeschooling campaigner (the sites author) agreed with its principles? Well, at the risk of going into a libertarianism discussion, the question would be: Is one of the functions of a free-society forcing the dismantling of stereotypes, or just protecting people from them? If a stereotype is built into a religion, do we have the power to curtail religious freedom to eliminate it? If the religion wasn't trying to actively take rights from the sterotyped people, I would say no. Recommending that gay people seek a "cure" isn't necessarily taking their rights. Preventing them from seeking secular marriage rights is. Only if they are not ecnouraged to see thier sexuality as wrong. If however they activly propogandise the idea that homisexuality is imoral and/or unnatural then they shold not be allowed to do it, for any reason.
So if a westerner were living in say Saudi Arabia or Egypt or Iran, and wanted to "Homeschool" so as to teach their liberal western values to their kids and the STATE made this illegal and insisted that all the kids go to a State School so that the common values of their culture, their views on women and history, and politics and religion could be impressed up all kids for X hours a day you would be just fine with it. Right?
Because trust me those "homeschoolers" would be teaching things the STATE aka the cultural majority thinks are horrible ideas that children could be protected from.
Again I am amazed that the very oppression people are so offended by from "history" they are perfectly willing to INFLICT on others once they have the power to do so.
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Georg von Lemberg
Canada Toronto Ontario
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BlueMountain wrote: Meerkat wrote: BlueMountain wrote: I went to a US government school for a year. Every morning during the pledge they push the idea of a god upon the students. To find a decent secular school it might be necessary to home school if the private system doesn't offer local options.. I would like to point out that NOBODY is actually required to say the Pledge of Allegiance in US Pubic Schools. You may have to hear it, but nobody has to say it. And it isn't even as if anybody is paying attention to see if you do or not. It's pushing "god" in an educational environmet full of young minds. For all intents and purposes it is endorsed and encouraged by the powers that be in the school. It's absurd that home schooling should even be considered an option for someone wanting a secular school environment..
Absurd perhaps in a secular society, but America is hardly a secular society. You'd think that after spending a year there you'd have enough cultural sensitivity to cotton on to that. The US consistently ranks as one of the most religious of any "western" country. You may not like, and there are certainly many Americans that agree with you, but I get the sense that most Americans are rather more comfortable with religion in their public lives than you are.
Can you even remember the last time some prominent politician in America ran on a platform of separating church and state? Here's a hint, they didn't get elected. And sure, coming from a country (Canada) where people tend to be a lot more private about religious convictions, I do find the very public protestations of faith in the US to be quite over the top and often outrightly hypocritical, but they seem to like it that way..
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steven slater
England
County of Essex
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TheChin! wrote: slatersteven wrote: Where does it say that in any religious text? And I don't agree that this should be the case. it just reinforces my view that religion should recive no special status. May I ask do you agree that children can be tuaght to be anti-semitic, as long as its for reasons of religion?
I'm sure that many religious texts have sections about teaching your children the "word" and that you are bad if you don't. I don't think that children should be taught to be anti-semitic, but if your religion said that Jews were actually agents of Satan, how can you justify not teaching them that? As long as you don't teach children to beat up Jews or steal from them, then one of the warts of freedom is the existence of irrational beliefs and opinions. I think it is irresponsible to parent this way as it dooms your children to be anti-social to some extent or another, but what is the alternative, to have society be responsible for children instead of parents? This gets into the realm of reproductive rights/freedoms and what rights you actually have as a parent of your offspring. Leaving religion out for a second, should people be able to teach their children that liberals or conservatives are immoral?
No you have a system where the parents can trach them what they like, but a system that also ensures they are given other persepctives.
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steven slater
England
County of Essex
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fizzmore wrote: slatersteven wrote: Only if they are not ecnouraged to see thier sexuality as wrong. If however they activly propogandise the idea that homisexuality is imoral and/or unnatural then they shold not be allowed to do it, for any reason. ...so you believe that there are no forms of sexuality that should be considered wrong, and furthermore you think that this notion of yours should be the only one allowed circulation in the market of ideas?
So are you saying that homosexuality is wrong?
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steven slater
England
County of Essex
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TheChin! wrote: fizzmore wrote: slatersteven wrote: Only if they are not ecnouraged to see thier sexuality as wrong. If however they activly propogandise the idea that homisexuality is imoral and/or unnatural then they shold not be allowed to do it, for any reason. ...so you believe that there are no forms of sexuality that should be considered wrong? No, I think he is saying you just can't teach your children that there are forms that are wrong.
No you cannot teach your children soomething that others would not be allowed to, just becuase its religious bigotry.
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steven slater
England
County of Essex
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fizzmore wrote: TheChin! wrote: No, I think he is saying you just can't teach your children that there are forms that are wrong. ...so you (or he) think the parents should not be allowed to teach that any sort of sexuality is wrong, is that right?
See my replies.
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steven slater
England
County of Essex
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TheChin! wrote: fizzmore wrote: TheChin! wrote: No, I think he is saying you just can't teach your children that there are forms that are wrong. ...so you (or he) think the parents should not be allowed to teach that any sort of sexuality is wrong, is that right? Not me, I think you are free to tech your kids whatever you want as long as it respects the rights of others and doesn't cause harm to your children. He is saying that we need to break the cycle of stereotypes by preventing parents from reinforcing them, either by religious means or just plain old edumakashun.
There is evidacen that 'gay curing' does casue harm.
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steven slater
England
County of Essex
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fizzmore wrote: I was merely raising the point that (hopefully) we can all agree that some sexual behaviors are moral and others are immoral. He is of course, simply stating his desire that the state enforce his views on sexual morality as the correct ones when it comes to instruction...not to the point of having his view be the state-sponsored one, but beyond that forbidding the instruction of any view but that which he supports.
At what point did I say that parents arn't allowed to teach thoier children, at what point does this law stop it? Its the parents who what to force thier children to have only one view on the subject.
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steven slater
England
County of Essex
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Chad_Ellis wrote: fizzmore wrote: I was merely raising the point that (hopefully) we can all agree that some sexual behaviors are moral and others are immoral. An interesting question is whether sexual behaviors that are immoral are immoral exclusively for reasons that aren't to do with sex, i.e. they are immoral because they involve force/coercion, violence, deception, reckless endangerment, etc.
Precisely, the attempt (by inference) to equate Homosexuality with paedophilia is too sully for words. One is about choice the other is about coercion. I would hope that those making this connection really don’t believe it.
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steven slater
England
County of Essex
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TheChin! wrote: Chad_Ellis wrote: fizzmore wrote: I was merely raising the point that (hopefully) we can all agree that some sexual behaviors are moral and others are immoral. An interesting question is whether sexual behaviors that are immoral are immoral exclusively for reasons that aren't to do with sex, i.e. they are immoral because they involve force/coercion, violence, deception, reckless endangerment, etc. I think that is where we would get more universal agreement for certain immoral acts. When someone tries to conflate unnatural (i.e. doesn't promote procreation) with immoral is where the consensus really starts to break down.
No it breaks down when you try to conflate immoral with coersive.
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steven slater
England
County of Essex
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Meerkat wrote: slatersteven wrote: TheChin! wrote: slatersteven wrote: Stereotypes? The OP’s source has a link to this, http://jonahweb.org/index.php, site offering to rid people of unwanted same sex attraction. Why would someone not want to have a sexual attraction unless they had been taught its wrong? Why would the site be linked to unless this homeschooling campaigner (the sites author) agreed with its principles? Well, at the risk of going into a libertarianism discussion, the question would be: Is one of the functions of a free-society forcing the dismantling of stereotypes, or just protecting people from them? If a stereotype is built into a religion, do we have the power to curtail religious freedom to eliminate it? If the religion wasn't trying to actively take rights from the sterotyped people, I would say no. Recommending that gay people seek a "cure" isn't necessarily taking their rights. Preventing them from seeking secular marriage rights is. Only if they are not ecnouraged to see thier sexuality as wrong. If however they activly propogandise the idea that homisexuality is imoral and/or unnatural then they shold not be allowed to do it, for any reason. So if a westerner were living in say Saudi Arabia or Egypt or Iran, and wanted to "Homeschool" so as to teach their liberal western values to their kids and the STATE made this illegal and insisted that all the kids go to a State School so that the common values of their culture, their views on women and history, and politics and religion could be impressed up all kids for X hours a day you would be just fine with it. Right? Because trust me those "homeschoolers" would be teaching things the STATE aka the cultural majority thinks are horrible ideas that children could be protected from. Again I am amazed that the very oppression people are so offended by from "history" they are perfectly willing to INFLICT on others once they have the power to do so.
ytes, as no one is saying they cannot teach thier children thiose values, they are only saying they cannot teach them in isolation.
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