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whac3 wrote: Do you suppose that all home-schooled children are locked in their rooms or something? Get serious. The children in the OP are from an organization that specifically caters to students, business-people and travelers who have nothing in common except being Jewish AND they go round the world to non-Jewish areas specifically. So they're probably more exposed to diversity than most people on this thread objecting.
So to expose them to diverse cultural and religious beliefs, they spend the majority of their time being educated with... people with the same background of cultural and religious beliefs.
More importantly, homeschooling does rather allow for bizarre indoctrination and poor quality (especially as the checks are so hard to do) education which do not produce good citizens as a general rule.
Edit: Spelling, punctuation, forgot to include reason for edit.
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Lynette
United States
Richland
Washington
Yep, I am a girl Scientist. Come for the breasts; Stay for the brains!
For as long as I shall live I will testify to love; I'll be a witness in the silences when words are not enough.
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Euroncrowseye wrote: I was homeschooled for the last two years of high school (a distance thing rather than any particular ideology).
The people homeschooling due to political/religious beliefs were very much out there- Either Lutheran ministers who preached about the sin of homosexuality and worshipping false idols, or vegan hippies who celebrated solstice.
I think there we were the only family even approaching anything which could loosely be described as mainstream political beliefs!
Personally I always am both amused and frustrated by the double message western society likes to broadcast. Be yourself! Conformity is BAD!! ... well unless it is conforming in a way the majority of us have decided is the right way to be of course.
Seriously... as a political moderate who finds both extremes exceedingly tiresome personally... I am still unwilling to try to insist my vegan hippie OR my fundie friends conform to what I consider to be the better path. And I certainly am not going to try to insist they raise their kids to conform to MY IDEAS of what is best for them.
That is what freedom and tolerance are all about. Allowing people to be genuinely outside of the mainstream.
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Moshe Callen
Israel
Jerusalem
I like to exchange ideas but I have no interest in a pissing contest.
If you want me to review your game, just GM me and send me a copy. Abstracts, wargames and euros equally welcome. No party or dexterity games please.
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Euroncrowseye wrote: whac3 wrote: Do you suppose that all home-schooled children are locked in their rooms or something? Get serious. The children in the OP are from an organization that specifically caters to students, business-people and travelers who have nothing in common except being Jewish AND they go round the world to non-Jewish areas specifically. So they're probably more exposed to diversity than most people on this thread objecting. So to expose them to diverse cultural and religious beliefs, they spend the majority of their time being educated with... people with the same background of cultural and religious beliefs. More importantly, homeschooling does rather allow for bizarre indoctrination and poor quality (especially as the checks are so hard to do) education which do not produce good citizens as a general rule. Edit: Spelling, punctuation, forgot to include reason for edit.
Um, no. Please read the above post.
For example, my sister teaches in a homeschooling group. She is Jewish. Other parents are Muslim, Christian, Hindu and atheist-- just of the ones she has mentioned to me. Some are gay, and some are not. Some are black people, others East Asian, some others South Asian and some white. Some are Liberals, others Conservatives and of course moderates.
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Англичанин або Англiєць?
Germany
Bremen
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MyTwoCents wrote: whac3 wrote:
Lovely but irrelevant. Did you not notice my comments in this thread saying Israel is not a country associated with the Jewish people?
Really? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Emblem_of_Israel.svg So whats that? A decorative candelabra? Why's that star in the middle of the flag? Hardly inclusive or secular symbols, are they?
I don't want to put words in Moshe's mouth. But if there are three things we know about him, they are that he (a) is Jewish, (b) lives in Israel and (c) isn't stupid.
Therefore, when he says that "Israel is not a country associated with the Jewish people" he is doing so for a reason and not out of ignorance. If it doesn't accord with what you know or perceive, that is probably because he is using at least one of the terms in a different way to the way you are.
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Moshe Callen
Israel
Jerusalem
I like to exchange ideas but I have no interest in a pissing contest.
If you want me to review your game, just GM me and send me a copy. Abstracts, wargames and euros equally welcome. No party or dexterity games please.
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MyTwoCents wrote: whac3 wrote:
Lovely but irrelevant. Did you not notice my comments in this thread saying Israel is not a country associated with the Jewish people?
Really? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Emblem_of_Israel.svg So whats that? A decorative candelabra? Why's that star in the middle of the flag? Hardly inclusive or secular symbols, are they?
*sigh*
Chiddler;
Go learn some damned history and start with Hertzel. He wasn't exactly religious.
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Moshe Callen
Israel
Jerusalem
I like to exchange ideas but I have no interest in a pissing contest.
If you want me to review your game, just GM me and send me a copy. Abstracts, wargames and euros equally welcome. No party or dexterity games please.
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MyTwoCents wrote: Meerkat wrote: Euroncrowseye wrote: I was homeschooled for the last two years of high school (a distance thing rather than any particular ideology).
The people homeschooling due to political/religious beliefs were very much out there- Either Lutheran ministers who preached about the sin of homosexuality and worshipping false idols, or vegan hippies who celebrated solstice.
I think there we were the only family even approaching anything which could loosely be described as mainstream political beliefs! Personally I always am both amused and frustrated by the double message western society likes to broadcast. Be yourself! Conformity is BAD!! ... well unless it is conforming in a way the majority of us have decided is the right way to be of course. Seriously... as a political moderate who finds both extremes exceedingly tiresome personally... I am still unwilling to try to insist my vegan hippie OR my fundie friends conform to what I consider to be the better path. And I certainly am not going to try to insist they raise their kids to conform to MY IDEAS of what is best for them. That is what freedom and tolerance are all about. Allowing people to be genuinely outside of the mainstream. Allowing ADULTS to be genuinely outside the mainstream is tolerance, allowing people to keep their CHILDREN outside the mainstream is more problematic, and not a simple black and white argument. The idea that a parent has an absolute right to raise a child how they wish without any outside agency having any right to an opinion or even sanction does not sit right with me. It is absolutely moral to intervene if a parent is raising a child to be a white supremacist or a suicide bomber. Allowing homeschooling without any rules or oversight is turning a blind eye to all manner of potential abuses. If you consider something to be the better path, have the courage of your convictions
Who said anything about "without oversight"?
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whac3 wrote: who have nothing in common except being Jewish
Um, no. Please read the above post.
I have. It says they have nothing in common apart from being Jewish. Ie, a cultural/religious group.
I agree with Mark on the whole subject of indoctrination: The problem is not that the ideas are not mainstream, the problem is that children are essentially being indoctrinated into a set of beliefs which are completely at odds with societal values.
This doesn't occur in all or even most cases, but the fact that it does is enough reason to have strict legislation about homeschooling, and the person in the OP seems to have run afoul of this legislation.
But to be honest, I think the more important point there was the poor quality unsupervised education.
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Also, re homeschool groups promoting contact with other beliefs etc:
Firstly, the pool of people to meet is far smaller. Secondly, the pool is self selecting and therefore not really representative.
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steven slater
England
County of Essex
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TheChin! wrote: Chad_Ellis wrote: I think a society has a legitimate interest in a modest level of integration and in determining what the rules of integration are for those choosing to live there.
My personal view is that forbidding home schooling (or, rather, not letting it replace a generic education) goes too far, regardless of whether it's targeting a specific group (which would make it far worse). I guess my question would be, what is a legitimate level of forced integration? A standard language for business and government transactions/interactions possibly, but what else? Basic laws of right and wrong based on infringing on other people's rights for sure. But any forced culturization seems too far. If a society wants to fly the "free" banner there must be a bare minimum of forced integration. People should be driven to increased integration just because it makes life easier and increases the ability to succeed and achieve security for themselves and their families.
Stereotypes? The OP’s source has a link to this, http://jonahweb.org/index.php, site offering to rid people of unwanted same sex attraction. Why would someone not want to have a sexual attraction unless they had been taught its wrong? Why would the site be linked to unless this homeschooling campaigner (the sites author) agreed with its principles?
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Learn to swim, learn to swim, learn to swim, learn to swim..
United States
Cleveland Heights
Ohio
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slatersteven wrote: Stereotypes? The OP’s source has a link to this, http://jonahweb.org/index.php, site offering to rid people of unwanted same sex attraction. Why would someone not want to have a sexual attraction unless they had been taught its wrong? Why would the site be linked to unless this homeschooling campaigner (the sites author) agreed with its principles?
Well, at the risk of going into a libertarianism discussion, the question would be: Is one of the functions of a free-society forcing the dismantling of stereotypes, or just protecting people from them? If a stereotype is built into a religion, do we have the power to curtail religious freedom to eliminate it? If the religion wasn't trying to actively take rights from the sterotyped people, I would say no. Recommending that gay people seek a "cure" isn't necessarily taking their rights. Preventing them from seeking secular marriage rights is.
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steven slater
England
County of Essex
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TheChin! wrote: slatersteven wrote: Stereotypes? The OP’s source has a link to this, http://jonahweb.org/index.php, site offering to rid people of unwanted same sex attraction. Why would someone not want to have a sexual attraction unless they had been taught its wrong? Why would the site be linked to unless this homeschooling campaigner (the sites author) agreed with its principles? Well, at the risk of going into a libertarianism discussion, the question would be: Is one of the functions of a free-society forcing the dismantling of stereotypes, or just protecting people from them? If a stereotype is built into a religion, do we have the power to curtail religious freedom to eliminate it? If the religion wasn't trying to actively take rights from the sterotyped people, I would say no. Recommending that gay people seek a "cure" isn't necessarily taking their rights. Preventing them from seeking secular marriage rights is.
Only if they are not ecnouraged to see thier sexuality as wrong. If however they activly propogandise the idea that homisexuality is imoral and/or unnatural then they shold not be allowed to do it, for any reason.
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Learn to swim, learn to swim, learn to swim, learn to swim..
United States
Cleveland Heights
Ohio
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slatersteven wrote:
Only if they are not ecnouraged to see thier sexuality as wrong. If however they activly propogandise the idea that homisexuality is imoral and/or unnatural then they shold not be allowed to do it, for any reason.
So you are saying that not only should they lose their freedom of religion, but also their freedom of speech. I agree that people who say that being gay is immoral and and unnatural are deluded fools, but unless they actively prevent people from being gay, expressing their homosexuality or exercising their rights because they are gay, they can say whatever they want. I don't think a government of free people has the right to make you think a certain way regardless of how irrational your thoughts are, unless of course you act on those thoughts to take freedoms from others.
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steven slater
England
County of Essex
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TheChin! wrote: slatersteven wrote:
Only if they are not ecnouraged to see thier sexuality as wrong. If however they activly propogandise the idea that homisexuality is imoral and/or unnatural then they shold not be allowed to do it, for any reason.
So you are saying that not only should they lose their freedom of religion, but also their freedom of speech. I agree that people who say that being gay is immoral and and unnatural are deluded fools, but unless they actively prevent people from being gay, expressing their homosexuality or exercising their rights because they are gay, they can say whatever they want. I don't think a government of free people has the right to make you think a certain way regardless of how irrational your thoughts are, unless of course you act on those thoughts to take freedoms from others.
How are they losong thier freedom of religion, they are not being stoped from practising or teaching anything. And Yes O agree that no one has a right to restict what you can say or think. But they do have a right to stop you forcing your views on others, including children. How cana child that is taught something is wrong be free to make up its own mind if that is the only view it is presented with? Freedme is the right to think for yourself, its not the right to imppose your values on your children.
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Learn to swim, learn to swim, learn to swim, learn to swim..
United States
Cleveland Heights
Ohio
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slatersteven wrote:
How are they losong thier freedom of religion, they are not being stoped from practising or teaching anything. And Yes O agree that no one has a right to restict what you can say or think. But they do have a right to stop you forcing your views on others, including children. How cana child that is taught something is wrong be free to make up its own mind if that is the only view it is presented with? Freedme is the right to think for yourself, its not the right to imppose your values on your children.
The freedom of religion includes, for better or worse, the freedom to impress your values on your children.
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steven slater
England
County of Essex
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TheChin! wrote: slatersteven wrote:
How are they losong thier freedom of religion, they are not being stoped from practising or teaching anything. And Yes O agree that no one has a right to restict what you can say or think. But they do have a right to stop you forcing your views on others, including children. How cana child that is taught something is wrong be free to make up its own mind if that is the only view it is presented with? Freedme is the right to think for yourself, its not the right to imppose your values on your children.
The freedom of religion includes, for better or worse, the freedom to impress your values on your children.
Where does it say that in any religious text? And I don't agree that this should be the case. it just reinforces my view that religion should recive no special status. May I ask do you agree that children can be tuaght to be anti-semitic, as long as its for reasons of religion?
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Learn to swim, learn to swim, learn to swim, learn to swim..
United States
Cleveland Heights
Ohio
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slatersteven wrote:
Where does it say that in any religious text? And I don't agree that this should be the case. it just reinforces my view that religion should recive no special status. May I ask do you agree that children can be tuaght to be anti-semitic, as long as its for reasons of religion?
I'm sure that many religious texts have sections about teaching your children the "word" and that you are bad if you don't.
I don't think that children should be taught to be anti-semitic, but if your religion said that Jews were actually agents of Satan, how can you justify not teaching them that? As long as you don't teach children to beat up Jews or steal from them, then one of the warts of freedom is the existence of irrational beliefs and opinions. I think it is irresponsible to parent this way as it dooms your children to be anti-social to some extent or another, but what is the alternative, to have society be responsible for children instead of parents? This gets into the realm of reproductive rights/freedoms and what rights you actually have as a parent of your offspring.
Leaving religion out for a second, should people be able to teach their children that liberals or conservatives are immoral?
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post-Essen syndrom
Sweden
Stockholm
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TheChin! wrote: Leaving religion out for a second, should people be able to teach their children that liberals or conservatives are immoral? Of course, and their social science teacher should tell them that it's possible to want the same thing, but arrive at different conclusions, that for example some conservatives love the poor like themselves but don't think general welfare systems are a long-term solution for getting rid of poverty.
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Learn to swim, learn to swim, learn to swim, learn to swim..
United States
Cleveland Heights
Ohio
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Mondainai wrote: TheChin! wrote: Leaving religion out for a second, should people be able to teach their children that liberals or conservatives are immoral? Of course, and their social science teacher should tell them that it's possible to want the same thing, but arrive at different conclusions, that for example some conservatives love the poor like themselves but don't think general welfare systems are a long-term solution for getting rid of poverty.
Which comes back around to the nature of "school". If you want your children to be open minded about people different from themselves and ideas different from your own, then public school is an option. If you want less emphasis on the different ideas, you choose a like minded private school. If you want to remove as much distraction from your ideas and opinions you home school. In all three cases, the government should be limited to ensuring all students are educated to a certain standard in the skill sets that allow them to function in society. It can also promote harmony in society through public school curriculum, but it shouldn't be able to control what parents teach their children unless, again, it infringes on the freedoms of others.
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Chad Ellis
United States
Brookline
Massachusetts
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whac3 wrote: MyTwoCents wrote:
*sigh* Chiddler
Wait, MyTwoCents is Chiddler?
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Learn to swim, learn to swim, learn to swim, learn to swim..
United States
Cleveland Heights
Ohio
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Chad_Ellis wrote:
Wait, MyTwoCents is Chiddler?
So some have surmised
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Marc MiWerdz
New Zealand
Perendale
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Chad_Ellis wrote: whac3 wrote: MyTwoCents wrote:
*sigh* Chiddler Wait, MyTwoCents is Chiddler?
Who is trying to sully my good name now?
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Paul W
United States
Eugene
Oregon
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slatersteven wrote: Only if they are not ecnouraged to see thier sexuality as wrong. If however they activly propogandise the idea that homisexuality is imoral and/or unnatural then they shold not be allowed to do it, for any reason.
...so you believe that there are no forms of sexuality that should be considered wrong, and furthermore you think that this notion of yours should be the only one allowed circulation in the market of ideas?
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Learn to swim, learn to swim, learn to swim, learn to swim..
United States
Cleveland Heights
Ohio
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fizzmore wrote: slatersteven wrote: Only if they are not ecnouraged to see thier sexuality as wrong. If however they activly propogandise the idea that homisexuality is imoral and/or unnatural then they shold not be allowed to do it, for any reason. ...so you believe that there are no forms of sexuality that should be considered wrong?
No, I think he is saying you just can't teach your children that there are forms that are wrong.
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Paul W
United States
Eugene
Oregon
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TheChin! wrote: No, I think he is saying you just can't teach your children that there are forms that are wrong.
...so you (or he) think the parents should not be allowed to teach that any sort of sexuality is wrong, is that right?
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Marc MiWerdz
New Zealand
Perendale
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fizzmore wrote: TheChin! wrote: No, I think he is saying you just can't teach your children that there are forms that are wrong. ...so you (or he) think the parents should not be allowed to teach that any sort of sexuality is wrong, is that right?
Here in the civilized world, no one believes such a thing.
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Posted Fri Feb 3, 2012 2:39 am
