steven slater
England
County of Essex
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A Thread about an attack on jewsiness led me to this http://jonahweb.org/index.php, it would seem that intolerance is universal.
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Donald Hargnett
United States
New Alexandria
Pennsylvania
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I always thought "poofs" was the plural.
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Jon
United States
Vancouver
WA
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Werewolves again?
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Proud Father and Diabetic Underachiever
United States
State College
Pennsylvania
Grata
Bastard of Internet Ridicule
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Who the hell are any of us to argue with Rabbi Shmuel Kamenetsky?
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Daniel Edwards
United Kingdom
London
Unspecified
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"Light in the Closet"
Catchy!
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Англичанин або Англiєць?
Germany
Bremen
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Donald wrote: I always thought "poofs" was the plural.
No, clearly Pooves--two syllables--is a Yiddish word for the a special tax levied by the tsar on Jews in the Pale of Settlement in the 19th century. Jewish opposition to Pooves, as so eloquently put in the thread title (Jews against Pooves), was a central feature of the Haskalah in Eastern Europe, yet towards the end of the century also served as a training ground for socialist activists who went on to found the Bund.
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Jasper B
Netherlands
Leiden
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Salo sila wrote: Donald wrote: I always thought "poofs" was the plural. No, clearly Pooves--two syllables--is a Yiddish word for the a special tax levied by the tsar on Jews in the Pale of Settlement in the 19th century. Jewish opposition to Pooves, as so eloquently put in the thread title (Jews against Pooves), was a central feature of the Haskalah in Eastern Europe, yet towards the end of the century also served as a training ground for socialist activists who went on to found the Bund.  
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Англичанин або Англiєць?
Germany
Bremen
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Venga2 wrote: Salo sila wrote: Donald wrote: I always thought "poofs" was the plural. No, clearly Pooves--two syllables--is a Yiddish word for the a special tax levied by the tsar on Jews in the Pale of Settlement in the 19th century. Jewish opposition to Pooves, as so eloquently put in the thread title (Jews against Pooves), was a central feature of the Haskalah in Eastern Europe, yet towards the end of the century also served as a training ground for socialist activists who went on to found the Bund. Man, even though I know of the bund and the Pale of settlement (thank you Norman Davies), that just sounds so....... obscure. :) :p
Indeed. I think we should be very grateful to stevenslater for providing us with the opportunity to discuss this oft-overlooked yet important step in the struggle towards emancipation.
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Jasper B
Netherlands
Leiden
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Salo sila wrote: Venga2 wrote: Salo sila wrote: Donald wrote: I always thought "poofs" was the plural. No, clearly Pooves--two syllables--is a Yiddish word for the a special tax levied by the tsar on Jews in the Pale of Settlement in the 19th century. Jewish opposition to Pooves, as so eloquently put in the thread title (Jews against Pooves), was a central feature of the Haskalah in Eastern Europe, yet towards the end of the century also served as a training ground for socialist activists who went on to found the Bund. Man, even though I know of the bund and the Pale of settlement (thank you Norman Davies), that just sounds so....... obscure. Indeed. I think we should be very grateful to stevenslater for providing us with the opportunity to discuss this oft-overlooked yet important step in the struggle towards emancipation.
Now on topic, do you think the Tsar was justified in singling out an ethnic minority for extra tax burdens? He was, afterall, the supreme ruler all who resided in the Russian lands!
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Англичанин або Англiєць?
Germany
Bremen
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Venga2 wrote: Salo sila wrote: Venga2 wrote: Salo sila wrote: Donald wrote: I always thought "poofs" was the plural. No, clearly Pooves--two syllables--is a Yiddish word for the a special tax levied by the tsar on Jews in the Pale of Settlement in the 19th century. Jewish opposition to Pooves, as so eloquently put in the thread title (Jews against Pooves), was a central feature of the Haskalah in Eastern Europe, yet towards the end of the century also served as a training ground for socialist activists who went on to found the Bund. Man, even though I know of the bund and the Pale of settlement (thank you Norman Davies), that just sounds so....... obscure. :) :p Indeed. I think we should be very grateful to stevenslater for providing us with the opportunity to discuss this oft-overlooked yet important step in the struggle towards emancipation. And rightly so! I think Stevens contributions for the discussing of ibscure topics are often overlooked. Here Steve, have a tip for this one! Now on topic, do you think the Tsar was justified in singling out an ethnic minority for extra tax burdens? He was, afterall, the supreme ruler all who resided in the Russian lands!
Well, I think that's the slippery slope to moral relativism!
Instead of discussing whether the tax was justified, I think we have to look at the political and social context of the legislation and ask whether it achieved what it set out to do.
After the Napoleonic Wars, Alexander I needed new sources of revenue so he decided to levy taxes on certain folk customs. He chose to tax folk dancing on a Tuesday in the Pale. However, many people realised that they could circumvent the tax by performing their folk dances on a Monday or a Wednesday and the Pooves failed to bring in the revenue desired.
Nevertheless, it's easier to make than repeal a bad law and so it remained on the statute books as a symbol of tsarist oppression right up to 1905, when it was swept away by the First Russian Revolution.
When discussing the Pooves it is essential to remember this context.
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Jasper B
Netherlands
Leiden
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So we can move on to the history of bad law making. I mean seriously, taxing folk-dances on a wednesday alone? How silly is that? Was the Tsar advised by Poles on that?
Seriously though, thanks for hose nuggest. Its interesting and funny stuff. Would you say the Pooves and other measures targeting jews has any influence on the rate of assimilation of jews with the general Russian population?
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steven slater
England
County of Essex
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quozl wrote: Werewolves again?
As I did not write the story no.
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steven slater
England
County of Essex
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Venga2 wrote: Salo sila wrote: Venga2 wrote: Salo sila wrote: Donald wrote: I always thought "poofs" was the plural. No, clearly Pooves--two syllables--is a Yiddish word for the a special tax levied by the tsar on Jews in the Pale of Settlement in the 19th century. Jewish opposition to Pooves, as so eloquently put in the thread title (Jews against Pooves), was a central feature of the Haskalah in Eastern Europe, yet towards the end of the century also served as a training ground for socialist activists who went on to found the Bund. Man, even though I know of the bund and the Pale of settlement (thank you Norman Davies), that just sounds so....... obscure. :) :p Indeed. I think we should be very grateful to stevenslater for providing us with the opportunity to discuss this oft-overlooked yet important step in the struggle towards emancipation. And rightly so! I think Stevens contributions for the discussing of ibscure topics are often overlooked. Here Steve, have a tip for this one! Now on topic, do you think the Tsar was justified in singling out an ethnic minority for extra tax burdens? He was, afterall, the supreme ruler all who resided in the Russian lands!
Of course not, unless they were bankers. Its nice by the way to see that Homophobia is treated so lightly.
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Proud Father and Diabetic Underachiever
United States
State College
Pennsylvania
Grata
Bastard of Internet Ridicule
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slatersteven wrote:
Of course not, unless they were bankers. Its nice by the way to see that Homophobia is treated so lightly.
Just because you call it homophobia, that doesn't make it so. The widely-held belief that homosexuality is an inherently unnatural, behavioral lifestyle choice may be all wet, but nobody has actually, so far as I'm aware, proven it to be all wet. Have you?
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steven slater
England
County of Essex
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MisterCranky wrote: slatersteven wrote:
Of course not, unless they were bankers. Its nice by the way to see that Homophobia is treated so lightly.
Just because you call it homophobia, that doesn't make it so. The widely-held belief that homosexuality is an inherently unnatural, behavioral lifestyle choice may be all wet, but nobody has actually, so far as I'm aware, proven it to be all wet. Have you?
Hold on, I seem to recall that when this is done by Chrisitan pasters its called Homophboa, so why not ? Or do you say that its not homophobic to claim that it can be cured period?
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Proud Father and Diabetic Underachiever
United States
State College
Pennsylvania
Grata
Bastard of Internet Ridicule
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slatersteven wrote:
Hold on, I seem to recall that when this is done by Chrisitan pasters its called Homophboa, so why not ? Or do you say that its not homophobic to claim that it can be cured period?
Am *I* someone that you have heard calling Chrisitan pasters homophobes? Where in this web site you have proffered do you see anybody offering "a cure?"
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steven slater
England
County of Essex
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MisterCranky wrote: slatersteven wrote:
Hold on, I seem to recall that when this is done by Chrisitan pasters its called Homophboa, so why not ? Or do you say that its not homophobic to claim that it can be cured period?
Am *I* someone that you have heard calling Chrisitan pasters homophobes? Where in this web site you have proffered do you see anybody offering "a cure?"
Did I say *you*.
"educate, nurture, and provide an opportunity for those struggling with unwanted same-sex attractions to journey out of homosexuality." What if that if tis not offering a cure for Homosexuality (sorry they must be talking about Night club in Tel Aviv that has trouble with its doors)?
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Proud Father and Diabetic Underachiever
United States
State College
Pennsylvania
Grata
Bastard of Internet Ridicule
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slatersteven wrote:
Did I say *you*.
It's really quite simple--when you seek to justify laxity of thought by suggesting that other people are lax in their thinking, I find it immediately necessary to distance myself from the lax thinkers in whose company you seek to reside.
slatersteven wrote:
"educate, nurture, and provide an opportunity for those struggling with unwanted same-sex attractions to journey out of homosexuality." What if that if tis not offering a cure for Homosexuality (sorry they must be talking about Night club in Tel Aviv that has trouble with its doors)?
Obviously this is directed, and I point you merely to the words that you've quoted, toward people who have UNWANTED same-sex attractions. If a person is perfectly happy and wants their same-sex attractions, I see nothing in what you've provided to indicate that this group has any mandate to interfere. By insisting on using the word "cure" here, it is you who is calling homosexuality a disease, not them. That you're willing to put those words into their mouths suggests that you have some agenda that's not nearly as educational nor nurturing as JONAH's. Why do you hate Jews, stevenslater, who merely seek to educate and nurture people of their own religious affiliation regarding the possibilities of discarding unwanted same-sex attraction? Why are you JONAHphobic?
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Chad Ellis
United States
Brookline
Massachusetts
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MisterCranky wrote: slatersteven wrote:
Of course not, unless they were bankers. Its nice by the way to see that Homophobia is treated so lightly.
Just because you call it homophobia, that doesn't make it so. The widely-held belief that homosexuality is an inherently unnatural, behavioral lifestyle choice may be all wet, but nobody has actually, so far as I'm aware, proven it to be all wet. Have you?
How do you propose someone disprove a value judgment? Some bigoted claims can at least in theory be disproved but many can't. If I think Jews are inherently more greedy or selfish, how would you prove that view to be false?
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MisterCranky wrote: slatersteven wrote:
Of course not, unless they were bankers. Its nice by the way to see that Homophobia is treated so lightly.
Just because you call it homophobia, that doesn't make it so. The widely-held belief that homosexuality is an inherently unnatural, behavioral lifestyle choice may be all wet, but nobody has actually, so far as I'm aware, proven it to be all wet. Have you?
"Unnatural" and "lifestyle choice" and not the issues here. If those were the motivations we would also have programmes to cure boardgame addiction (Heaven forbid).
It has been shown that attempts at "curing" homosexuality don't generally help those treated (cited more extensively here). And if it's not done for the benefit of the "patients", why do it?
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Proud Father and Diabetic Underachiever
United States
State College
Pennsylvania
Grata
Bastard of Internet Ridicule
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Chad_Ellis wrote:
How do you propose someone disprove a value judgment? Some bigoted claims can at least in theory be disproved but many can't. If I think Jews are inherently more greedy or selfish, how would you prove that view to be false?
The easiest way to disprove a value judgment is to prove something else that contradicts it. Or do you believe that human sexuality is simply a value judgment that everybody makes for themselves? If you believe that, then you no doubt have no issue with JONAH's approach to nurturing people who find themselves disappointed with their own values.
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Proud Father and Diabetic Underachiever
United States
State College
Pennsylvania
Grata
Bastard of Internet Ridicule
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hsquid wrote: It has been shown that attempts at "curing" homosexuality don't generally help those treated (cited more extensively here). And if it's not done for the benefit of the "patients", why do it?
I think a simple reading of the web site in question explains exactly why they are doing it. I'm extremely tired of being offered links to ever more tedious information when the tedious information already on offer has not been fully digested by the participants of the thread.
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Daniel Edwards
United Kingdom
London
Unspecified
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MisterCranky wrote: slatersteven wrote:
Of course not, unless they were bankers. Its nice by the way to see that Homophobia is treated so lightly.
Just because you call it homophobia, that doesn't make it so. The widely-held belief that homosexuality is an inherently unnatural, behavioral lifestyle choice may be all wet, but nobody has actually, so far as I'm aware, proven it to be all wet. Have you?
Absolutely. I proved it without a doubt. It was the 2nd of June 2003. A Wednesday I believe and it was raining ironically.
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MisterCranky wrote: hsquid wrote: It has been shown that attempts at "curing" homosexuality don't generally help those treated (cited more extensively here). And if it's not done for the benefit of the "patients", why do it? I think a simple reading of the web site in question explains exactly why they are doing it. I'm extremely tired of being offered links to ever more tedious information when the tedious information already on offer has not been fully digested by the participants of the thread.
Um, you mean the American Psychological Association?
The other link is just there so you don't have to pay to read the relevant elements of the original paper. If you ask for proofs you might get links to tedious information.
Do you disagree that attempts to "cure" homosexuality usually do more harm than good to those receiving the "treatment"? If not, I'm not sure what your point is.
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Proud Father and Diabetic Underachiever
United States
State College
Pennsylvania
Grata
Bastard of Internet Ridicule
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hsquid wrote:
Do you disagree that attempts to "cure" homosexuality usually do more harm than good to those receiving the "treatment"? If not, I'm not sure what your point is.
Perhaps I'll start a group to nurture and educate people who don't understand other people's points. Don't hold your breath.
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