The Hotness
Games|People|Company
Dominion: Dark Ages
Fantastiqa
Mage Knight: Board Game
Mice and Mystics
Eclipse
Among the Stars
Collapsible D: The Final Minutes of the Titanic
Thunder Road
Agricola: All Creatures Big and Small
Lords of Waterdeep
Descent: Journeys in the Dark (Second Edition)
Dungeon Fighter
Virgin Queen
Skyline
The Lord of the Rings: The Card Game
A Game of Thrones: The Board Game (Second Edition)
Twilight Struggle
Dominion
Android: Netrunner
1989: Dawn of Freedom
Agricola
The Big Bang Theory: The Party Game
Total War
Arkham Horror
7 Wonders
Village
Dungeon Command: Sting of Lolth
Wrong Chemistry
The Castles of Burgundy
Ace of Spies
War of the Ring
Through the Ages: A Story of Civilization
Alien Frontiers
Ora et Labora
Le Havre
Kingdom Builder
Twilight Imperium (third edition)
Trajan
Glory to Rome
The Swarm
Race for the Galaxy
Caylus
Battlestar Galactica
Tammany Hall
Small World
Zombicide
Hawaii
Quarriors! Quarmageddon
Power Grid
Space Alert
Recommend
7 
 Thumb up
 Thumb up
50 Posts
1 , 2  Next »   | 

BoardGameGeek» Forums » Gaming Related » General Gaming

Subject: Non-destructive shuffling techniques? How do you SHUFFLE? rss

Your Tags: Add tags
Popular Tags: [View All]
A boy named Sioux
United Kingdom

flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Curious to know about everyone's shuffling techniques with and without sleeves. The balance between speed, damaging the cards, and getting a good mix is something of an art that I've yet to master.

So how do you shuffle?
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Thumb up
Paul DeStefano
United States
Long Island
New York
designer
It's a Zendrum. www.zendrum.com
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Every day I'm shufflin'...
29 
 Thumb up
0.25
 tip
 Thumb up
Ed Bradley
United Kingdom
Haverhill
Suffolk
The best things in life aren't things.
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I riffle.
But I also sleeve.

There is no way to shuffle unsleeved cards that won't damage them, that I know of.
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Thumb up
A boy named Sioux
United Kingdom

flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Riffle? How do you riffle? (I think I want to riffle)
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Thumb up
Gustavo
Brazil
Hattiesburg
Mississippi
mbmbmbmb
Siouxfire wrote:
Riffle? How do you riffle? (I think I want to riffle)


Riffle is recommended for non-sleeved cards only, because sleeved cards can get one inside of the other.

http://boardgamegeek.com/thread/755091/how-to-shuffle-in-ord...

For a demonstration of shuffling with sleeves, visit the Maydaygames website. There is a video there.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Thumb up
A boy named Sioux
United Kingdom

flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Thank you, Gustavo.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Thumb up
Adrian Pop
Romania
Cluj-Napoca
Cluj
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I do pile shuffling. It's always an excellent shuffle and keeps the cards safe from wearing.

A 5 or 7 pile shuffle is usually enough.
10 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Thumb up
A boy named Sioux
United Kingdom

flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Tretiak wrote:
I do pile shuffling. It's always an excellent shuffle and keeps the cards safe from wearing.

A 5 or 7 pile shuffle is usually enough.

I do that at the moment and it's fine for the start of the game, but I find it's a little cumbersome mid-game. That said, it is kind to the cards.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Thumb up
Brian Gomez
United States
Bellevue
Nebraska
flag msg tools
SPOOON!!!
badge
Whale's Vagina bound!
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb


I riffle as I did as a blackjack dealer.
Here's a video I posted in a Munchkin thread showing the technique, which although slowed down, still is relatively quick. First, I "wash" the cards by spreading them out on my playing surface and mix them well. For large decks, I'd split the deck into two stacks, call them stacks A and C. I grab a manageable portion from each half and riffle them, placing the results into a stack in the middle, which I'll refer to as stack B. Then I grab from stacks A and B and repeat, placing the results back in stack B. Then I grab a bit from B and C and repeat. Alternate between shuffling a little from stacks A and B, and B and C until all cards are in stack B. It's kind of like a braid.

For smaller decks, I'll still wash them and riffle them, but rather than the elaborate method with 3 stacks, I'll just riffle them 3-8 times, depending on how picky my opponents are and how sure we want to be that they're adequately shuffled.

Note that the riffle involves taking about a half inch of cards per hand, stacking them, pulling a third of the cards off the bottom, placing them back on top, split halfway, taking half of the stack per hand, hold each half angled kinda like this -> //\\ and while gently resting your hand and fingers over each stack, run your thumbs up the side of the stacks closest to you, all while gently pressing the corners of each deck into each other. The video demonstrates this, although this is a lot easier with bigger cards vs. tiny cards like found in Arkham Horror or the 1st run of Ticket to Ride train cards.

Edit: Here's the riffle shuffle video from the other thread which does a good job of demonstrating a riffle, though as a dealer, I'm used to covering the decks with my hands rather than grabbing the "bottom" of each stack, so as to obscure and prevent any cards from being seen.

[youtube=C6OehfdLz00#!]

Note that I don't sleeve my cards. I don't have the bankroll necessary to futilely try to protect my cards from wear. Certain games get more play than others and as expected, the cards will wear with time and use, but since they wear evenly, there's no issues with marked cards. If a deck finally kicks the bucket, it would only be after many years of play, in which case I'd consider the game to have been worth the expenditure, and perhaps worth purchasing again. If the game is OOP, then I simply shrug and say "oh well", and get on with life. It sucks, but it's not the end of the world.
23 
 Thumb up
0.30
 tip
 Thumb up
  • Last edited Wed Feb 1, 2012 3:01 pm (Total Number of Edits: 2)
  • Posted Wed Feb 1, 2012 2:52 pm
    • Choose your Dice
      • Roll
      • Comment (Optional)
    • QuickReply
    •  
    • QuickQuote
    •  
    • Reply
    •  
    • Quote
Ludere Cum Dignitate
United States
Carrollton
Texas
flag msg tools
"[hyperbole], it's pretty much the best and most exceptional and effective way of expressing oneself all the time ever." ~MScrivner
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I shuffle in the traditional way (I think). I just do it carefully and have noticed no problems with card bending or uber quick card aging or anything else...
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Thumb up
A boy named Sioux
United Kingdom

flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
So much great feedback! I hope others will find this as useful as I do.

(Feeling mighty welcome on my first post - thanks)
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Thumb up
Gert Meyer
Denmark

Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
When sleeved, you can basically take two piles of cards and push one inside the other. The sleeves will allow them to slide with no damage to the cards.

However, this can bend the corners of the sleeves a bit if you are too rough AND very importantly it requires that all your cards are facing the same way with regards to the opening on the sleeves as you do not want cards pushed inside the sleeves of other cards.

When shuffling unsleeved cards (or tiles) I do what I call a messy shuffle. Spread them out and and move them around gently amongst each other, then reform the pile. This does require a bit of table space so is often only practical when shuffling is done ahead of game start.
5 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Thumb up
  • Last edited Wed Feb 1, 2012 3:11 pm (Total Number of Edits: 1)
  • Posted Wed Feb 1, 2012 3:08 pm
    • Choose your Dice
      • Roll
      • Comment (Optional)
    • QuickReply
    •  
    • QuickQuote
    •  
    • Reply
    •  
    • Quote
Brian Gomez
United States
Bellevue
Nebraska
flag msg tools
SPOOON!!!
badge
Whale's Vagina bound!
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Redward wrote:
I shuffle in the traditional way (I think). I just do it carefully and have noticed no problems with card bending or uber quick card aging or anything else...


Yeah, most game companies are producing good quality cards that wear slowly, but even the best of cards can become creased. I make a point to not bridge shuffle to avoid any clumsy shuffling screw ups, but even with a bridge, the worst you'll see is even bowing of the cards. If you're anal you can backbend them, but if they're getting bowed, it's due to the way you shuffle and is likely to happen again, so for those that have this problem, they're probably better off not fighting nature and just accepting how the cards bend a bit.

I would suggest people be wary of new game manufacturers though. Yeah, they're trying to earn a living too, but often they just don't have the knowledge and connections necessary to find the quality card manufacturers, or they go to generic printing companies with little to no card making experience, and the results show. Consider Flying Frog, whose games contain cards that are thick and so you'd think they'd be durable, but they don't have a satin finish, so they stick together something fierce and shuffling those beasts are a bitch.
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Thumb up
  • Last edited Wed Feb 1, 2012 3:13 pm (Total Number of Edits: 1)
  • Posted Wed Feb 1, 2012 3:09 pm
    • Choose your Dice
      • Roll
      • Comment (Optional)
    • QuickReply
    •  
    • QuickQuote
    •  
    • Reply
    •  
    • Quote
Ian Toltz
United States
Revere
Massachusetts
designer
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I'd say it depends on the deck a bit. If it's a game where the cards will all see equal amounts of usage and the cards are well-made, I think the little nicks and dirty edges that come from riffle shuffling actually add a bit of personal charm to the deck.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Thumb up
Brian Gomez
United States
Bellevue
Nebraska
flag msg tools
SPOOON!!!
badge
Whale's Vagina bound!
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
gert74 wrote:


When shuffling unsleeved cards (or tiles) I do what I call a messy shuffle. Spread them out and and move them around gently amongst each other, then reform the pile. This does require a bit of table space so is often only practical when shuffling is done ahead of game start.


This is the "wash" I was referring to earlier, presumably called a wash due to the motion both hands make on the table as you're mixing them about. It's standing operating procedure in casinos to wash and adequately shuffle the cards from every deck that's opened prior to using them on the table.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Thumb up
A boy named Sioux
United Kingdom

flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Now I know what a "wash" and a "riffle" is. Thanks, meeple. (I mean "people")
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Thumb up
Adrian Hague
United Kingdom
Leamington, Warwickshire
West Midlands
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
For sleeved I use the Greek-style shuffle (cards are pushed together along their long side) combined with the hindhu-style shuffle (similar to a running cut, small packets are stripped off the top of their deck). For non-sleeved I use an open tabled-riffle shuffle (card magic is another hobby of mine). For a rundown of shuffling techniques see: The Expert At The Card Table S.W.Erdnase and Card College (Volume 1) by Roberto Giobbi.

For a real challenge, try the de Courcy One-Handed Riffle Shuffle:


Despite the commentators view, a lot of people do the flourish, the most famous being one Rene Lavand (of Argentina) arguably one of the finest close-up magic artists in recent decades, despite the fact that he is only capable of using one arm.
5 
 Thumb up
0.05
 tip
 Thumb up
  • Last edited Wed Feb 1, 2012 5:53 pm (Total Number of Edits: 2)
  • Posted Wed Feb 1, 2012 3:41 pm
    • Choose your Dice
      • Roll
      • Comment (Optional)
    • QuickReply
    •  
    • QuickQuote
    •  
    • Reply
    •  
    • Quote
Mike Urban
United States
Los Angeles
California
gert74 wrote:
When sleeved, you can basically take two piles of cards and push one inside the other. The sleeves will allow them to slide with no damage to the cards.

However, this can bend the corners of the sleeves a bit if you are too rough AND very importantly it requires that all your cards are facing the same way with regards to the opening on the sleeves as you do not want cards pushed inside the sleeves of other cards.


Which is why I do the 'push' sleeved-card shuffle by pushing together the long edges of the cards rather than the short ones.

I riffle-shuffle unsleeved cards. This doesn't really work for tiny cards, though. I don't have a satisfactory technique for these.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Thumb up
Joe Salamone
United States

Aggravating people worldwide since 1964
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I use various shuffles. A riffle shuffle is not very destructive unless you put a serious bend in the cards when you do it. I believe the "gentlest" shuffle is the Hindu Shuffle - no bending involved with that one.

1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Thumb up
Gustavo
Brazil
Hattiesburg
Mississippi
mbmbmbmb
Here's the video that was originally in the Maydaygames website demonstrating a good way of shuffling with sleeves:

2 
 Thumb up
0.25
 tip
 Thumb up
  • Last edited Wed Feb 1, 2012 5:23 pm (Total Number of Edits: 2)
  • Posted Wed Feb 1, 2012 5:21 pm
    • Choose your Dice
      • Roll
      • Comment (Optional)
    • QuickReply
    •  
    • QuickQuote
    •  
    • Reply
    •  
    • Quote
Adrian Hague
United Kingdom
Leamington, Warwickshire
West Midlands
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
That's the Greek-style shuffle I alluded to earlier.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Thumb up
Dave Horn


msg tools
Sleeved. I do the shuffle in the video above. Non-sleeved overhand. And everyone else does overhand with my cards too. No bending my cards!
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Thumb up
Matthew Tadyshak
United States
Allen
Texas
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I riffle softly. That way the cards don't get bent.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Thumb up
David Boeren
United States
Marietta
Georgia
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I mainly riffle, and occasionally intersperse some overhand shuffles.

It surprises me how often gamers don't know how to do a riffle when it's the best way to shuffle effectively and non-damaging to the cards. Seriously, it's well worth your time to watch a video and learn, it doesn't take that much practice.

It's really easy to perform the "wash" poorly and damage the cards because you're making very large motions so that if cards get crammed together there's sufficient force to hurt them. I never recommend this technique. Amateurs are likely to damage the cards and mix very poorly, someone who knows better techniques can just plain do better. If it's used at all it should be in ADDITION to something else. I do feel there is some value to using more than one technique which is why I mix riffles and overhands, each technique seems to have different "artifacts" which can cancel each other out when mixed. I also see the point of washing once on a brand new deck to break apart cards which were stuck together in the box perhaps.

Finally, a poorly done wash (the way most amateurs do it) just looks stupid, like you're a drunken walrus stirring cards with your flippers.
4 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Thumb up
Frog
United States

flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I always pile shuffle. I use 6-8 piles depending on the size of the deck.

It saves cards and is quite effective (at both shuffling cards and angering poker players)!

2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Thumb up
1 , 2  Next »   | 
Front Page | Welcome | Contact | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertise | Support BGG | Feeds RSS
Geekdo, BoardGameGeek, the Geekdo logo, and the BoardGameGeek logo are trademarks of BoardGameGeek, LLC.