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Dominion» Forums » Variants

Subject: Playtested with card art; I present you with Dominion: Impetus rss

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Mike Young
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For Circus, does that include cards opponents may have in play, such as Durations?
 
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Joseph Nall
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kevincos wrote:
allstar64 wrote:
Quote:
Name: Infrastructure
Card Type: Action
Text: +1 Card, +2 Actions
Cost: When you discard this card from play reveal the bottom card of your deck. If the revealed card os an infrastructure you may place this card on top of your deck otherwise place this card at the bottom of your deck.


Interesting set. Seems more thought has been put into it than most variants I've seen. The only card I see that seems blatantly too strong is Infrastructure cause once you play 2 of them you are guaranteed to get 1 back every turn from then on. If you get more than 2 say 4 you are guaranteed to get 3 Infrastructure in your hand every turn until the end of the game which just seems way too strong.


I'm inclined to agree. I really like the idea and flavor of the card though. What if instead of the +1 card, it was +1 coin or something? That way, sure, you could guarantee your hands will be full of infrastructures (could be a cool duchy rush strategy), but doing so has more of a cost to it, forcing you to actually combo it with card draw to be really useful. Or maybe give it a "discard 1 card". Again, I really like the idea, but as is it seems like too much of a no brainer to grab 2 and basically never want for actions again.

When I first made the card it was +$1 +2 Actions with the other effect but after a few tests that turns out to be too powerful. After a while it became what it is today. While infrastructure still seems powerful in application it is not as powerful as it seems. The cycling of infrastructure takes longer than it seems it should take. I’d be interested in hearing both of your feedback on Infrastructure if you every try it.

I Eat Tables wrote:
kevincos wrote:
Axxle wrote:
Blockade seems a little broken, if there's no trashing I can very easily see someone get into a state where they only have their starting coppers and estates in their deck, unable to draw any of the cards they buy.


I don't really like the blockade attack either. My problem isn't that its strong on average. Its just that sometimes it literally does nothing, and other times it just buries the opponent in a miserable way. I like the non-attack part though.

Blockade indeed seems totally whacky broken. A single play in a decent engine and you win forever. Each turn you shuffle bad cards (coppers, estates, non-drawing cards etc) into their deck until they only have 10 cards which they alternate between The best they'll do is buy a victory card, at which point your engine throws that in and a copper out. Meanwhile you build up until you win. It could be that often isn't the dominant strategy, but all it needs is an engine and it should be do-able.

While Axxle’s observation is right, it is unlikely it will happen. If you’re playing a game where one person buys most of the blockades that person would still has to use the attack at the period where players don’t have any purchased cards still in their deck. Likely the only way that a person’s initial 10 cards are cycled with blockade is if there is a good trash card in the game and a player ignores it, in which case that player has already lost.
The attack on Blockade is hit or miss but the “discard a treasure” option cover those times.
Blockade is strong, but if each player buys at least one blockade (if it gets played) than your opponent’s blockades are stifled too.
Ultimately, Blockade is a bit powerful, but does its strength negatively impact the game? For me the answer was no. I’d like to see if your opinions are the same after a few games with Blockade.

rodentfield wrote:
FlatOnHisFace wrote:
Heirloom makes big money decks unstoppable

Ooh, yeah. Heirloom + Horn of Plenty.

Buy Province or Colony with most your Treasure cards, use Horn of Plenty to gain Heirloom, shuffle only Treasure cards into your deck (don't bother shuffling in Heirloom!), repeat until the game ends or Heirlooms run out. It's actually pretty cool but maybe only for that once-in-a-while when they're both available.

I prefer to look at it this way: Heirloom makes Big Money decks more fun and slightly more intricate.

Heirloom + Horn of Plenty is an interesting strategy, but the cycle you’re describing is difficult. You would need 2 x Gold, 2 x Platinum, 2 x Silver, 2 x Copper (or any other treasure) and 2 x Horn of plenty oh and an empty deck. If you could pull that off I think your deserving of playing that unstoppable cycle.

JackRudd wrote:
Visionary is probably well-balanced, but not good card design: a Silver-with-a-bonus at $4 is uninteresting, because people buy Silver for $4 a large proportion of the time anyway.

What constitutes a good card design? For me a good card design is 1) Balance 2) Adds something to the game it’s in (how ever small) and 3) Is fun. Visionary passes that test with flying colors. It is true that “people buy Silver for $4 a large proportion of the time anyway” but isn’t it more interesting and more fun to be able to get that silver and a small bonus?

Thanks for all the feedback. Thanks for all the kind comments.
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Joseph Nall
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Buggy wrote:
For Circus, does that include cards opponents may have in play, such as Durations?


thanks for pointing that out. As it is becoming more apparent my wording is not 100%. It should be:

Name: Circus
Card Type: Action
Text: +1 Card, +1 Action, +1 Buy, +$2. Circus costs $1 less per differently named cards you have in play. When circus is trashed it is worth $8
Cost:11
 
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Kevin Costello


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Undrdatree wrote:

What constitutes a good card design? For me a good card design is 1) Balance 2) Adds something to the game it’s in (how ever small) and 3) Is fun. Visionary passes that test with flying colors. It is true that “people buy Silver for $4 a large proportion of the time anyway” but isn’t it more interesting and more fun to be able to get that silver and a small bonus?


Well, you've playtested it, so if your experience is that Visionary works, then I'll take your word for it, but on a more theoretical level, what he's getting at is that having a Silver+ at 4$ takes away an important decision from the game. Specifically, what should I do if I have 4$? Do I buy a silver or a 4 cost action card? Note that the VAST majority of 4 cost actions are either terminal or offer no coin (or have a significant cost or restriction). An argument could be made that the "what to do with 4$" decision is generally one of the most important tactical decisions in dominion. Having a Silver+ like this seems like it could hurt that quite a bit.

Have you tested Visionary in a Big Money variant? A Big Money deck with filtering that doesn't sacrifice any of its coin value might be unpleasantly strong relative to the simplicity of executing it.
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Undrdatree wrote:

When I first made the card it was +$1 +2 Actions with the other effect but after a few tests that turns out to be too powerful. After a while it became what it is today. While infrastructure still seems powerful in application it is not as powerful as it seems. The cycling of infrastructure takes longer than it seems it should take. I’d be interested in hearing both of your feedback on Infrastructure if you every try it.



Please explain. You haven't actually addressed any of our concerns which it the fact that once you play 2 different infrastructures you are guaranteed +1 additional action (more if you get more infrastructures) at the start of every future turn barring certain attacks/cards which might change the bottom card of your deck. I don't need to play test your set to know this is too powerful.
 
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D snowMan
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Herbalist + Edict = one supply pile turned upside down each turn you do it, without turning back up.

King's Court + Scheme + Herbalist + Edict = guaranteed way to do this every turn, until the entire kingdom is upside down.

Slightly broken. Not a huge deal, but not ideal
 
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Joseph Nall
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kevincos wrote:

Well, you've playtested it, so if your experience is that Visionary works, then I'll take your word for it, but on a more theoretical level, what he's getting at is that having a Silver+ at 4$ takes away an important decision from the game. Specifically, what should I do if I have 4$? Do I buy a silver or a 4 cost action card? Note that the VAST majority of 4 cost actions are either terminal or offer no coin (or have a significant cost or restriction). An argument could be made that the "what to do with 4$" decision is generally one of the most important tactical decisions in dominion. Having a Silver+ like this seems like it could hurt that quite a bit.

Have you tested Visionary in a Big Money variant? A Big Money deck with filtering that doesn't sacrifice any of its coin value might be unpleasantly strong relative to the simplicity of executing it.


I see what your getting at. The majority of the games we played visionary in did not out shine any of the competing fours. I have yet to play visionary with a constructed big money deck, but on a few occasions visionary was paired with venture and bank and did not seem to (overly) impose on the other action four choices.

allstar64 wrote:

Please explain. You haven't actually addressed any of our concerns which it the fact that once you play 2 different infrastructures you are guaranteed +1 additional action (more if you get more infrastructures) at the start of every future turn barring certain attacks/cards which might change the bottom card of your deck. I don't need to play test your set to know this is too powerful.


I'm sorry i did not realize that the +1 action for next turn was what you were concerned with.

Having a guaranteed extra action does not seem too powerful to me. The complaint about the way infrastructure gives the extra action is was is appealing to me. I look at the opportunity cost of buying two infrastructures and find that sufficient enough to level Infrastructure out.

DsnowMan wrote:
Herbalist + Edict = one supply pile turned upside down each turn you do it, without turning back up.

King's Court + Scheme + Herbalist + Edict = guaranteed way to do this every turn, until the entire kingdom is upside down.

Slightly broken. Not a huge deal, but not ideal


Thanks for pointing that out. I did not see that combination, unfortunately I'll have to add some "can't leave play" clause.
 
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  • Last edited Thu Feb 2, 2012 7:44 pm (Total Number of Edits: 1)
  • Posted Thu Feb 2, 2012 7:44 pm
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Kevin Costello


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Undrdatree wrote:

I see what your getting at. The majority of the games we played visionary in did not out shine any of the competing fours. I have yet to play visionary with a constructed big money deck, but on a few occasions visionary was paired with venture and bank and did not seem to (overly) impose on the other action four choices.


I don't really have the time to actually print these out and playtest on my own, but my advice to you when you do playtest is to have someone play a completely vanilla big money strategy in some of the tests as a benchmark. Just like everyone goes action crazy when they first start playing dominion, its easy to get into that mindset when any new expansion comes out. When you're going out of your way to playtest new cards, its probably even easier to lose sight of how your strategies stack up against big money and big money plus.

I say this because I'm skeptical that visionary didn't seem to outshine any of the "competing fours". This is suspicious to me because as a typical game drags on, its pretty common for silver to start to outshine the competing fours once you're crunched for actions, by virtue of it being a treasure card. So if a Silver+ isn't getting a ton of play, its possible that either a lot of your other cards are way overpowered, or that you're getting distracted by shiny new things and playing poorly. Its also possible that your set (or how you choose your cards) tends to skew things very far in favor of lots of actions, which may or may not be a good thing, but would mask the potentially detrimental effect of visionary.
 
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Undrdatree wrote:

I'm sorry i did not realize that the +1 action for next turn was what you were concerned with.

Having a guaranteed extra action does not seem too powerful to me. The complaint about the way infrastructure gives the extra action is was is appealing to me. I look at the opportunity cost of buying two infrastructures and find that sufficient enough to level Infrastructure out.


In that case you and I have a very different idea of what is considered powerful in this game. I personally see starting not just your next turn but every future turn with an additional action more than worth 2 4 cost buys. Walled Village, a very similar card, only goes on top of your deck if it wasn't useful the previous turn. To never have to worry about drawing 2 terminal actions together again I'd gladly make the buys.
 
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Roberta Yang


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I'm surprised nobody has mentioned Cattle yet, since it looks to me like a ridiculously strong trasher. For the same price as Spice Merchant, it has the same effect on your hand size, your Action total, and your deck size each turn... except it can trash Estates and Curses as well as Coppers and triggers once per turn instead of once per shuffle through your deck. And turning it into a Copper is hardly a cost, because a) All that does is reduce the total trashing done from 3 Estates + 7 Coppers to 3 Estates + 6 Coppers, and b) I'd rather have a Copper in my deck than a not-for-profit trasher when I have nothing left I want to trash.

I can't believe that Cattle didn't vastly outshine most traditional trashing power in playtesting.
 
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Dennison Milenkaya
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Ditto to what Salty just said but I guess after a Hunter finds ... any tract of land? ... to become a chainable Baron, Philosophers required a die roll, Commune included twice as many cards in its supply pile, and Copper Mine looked like a really weak way to avoid using Silvers, I decided I wasn't going to pick too many nits.

For as weird as they all seem, most of them look fun to play in whatever situation. I've seen worse on official cards (I'm talking to you, Goons; listen up, Possession & Alchemist!) and I got to thinking if they were official cards, we'd probably accept most of them at face value or at least give them a chance first.

For Cattle, perhaps it is the best trashing you can buy but it is different and available to everyone or no-one so it can't really be imbalancing.
 
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  • Last edited Fri Feb 3, 2012 2:04 am (Total Number of Edits: 1)
  • Posted Fri Feb 3, 2012 2:02 am
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Undrdatree wrote:

DsnowMan wrote:
Herbalist + Edict = one supply pile turned upside down each turn you do it, without turning back up.

King's Court + Scheme + Herbalist + Edict = guaranteed way to do this every turn, until the entire kingdom is upside down.

Slightly broken. Not a huge deal, but not ideal


Thanks for pointing that out. I did not see that combination, unfortunately I'll have to add some "can't leave play" clause.


I propose the following text for Edict, to solve this problem (I hope I have understand the meaning of the previous text):
Place a supply pile facedown. All facedown cards cannot be gained. When Edict leave the play area, return one facedown supply pile to face up position. At the start of your next turn discard Edict.
 
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Jaren Maddock
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Some of the cards are interesting and have good concepts, but there are a few that strike me as flawed.

Epic is a interesting card idea that shouldn't exist. All cards that give +1 victory point in prosperity are very careful about it. Bishop and Goons both require you either buy or trash cards, which require a well constructed deck to buy cards and trash them. Monument is a terminal action so in order to make good use of it you have to find natural combos to play it and still have enough money to improve your deck.

When epic is in play the most optimal strategy is buying nothing but epics. With 5 epics in hand you get 5 VP and have enough money to buy another epic. That's it, the optimal strategy for epic. Your deck will never be bloated and you can keep doing it forever. I don't think any +VP effect should exist on a treasure card, but maybe my instinct is off.

Copper Mine seems incredibly weak. For the same price as a silver it's essentially giving you +1 coin when everything is said and done, except that it requires you bloat your deck with copper. Compared to silver it's overpriced or underpowered.

The wording of Commune needs to be specified. I'm assuming the extra Commune you get comes from the supply pile, but that makes this card ridiculous as written. (When you gain a Commune place a Commune in your discard pile.) Since anytime you acquire a card in dominion it is considered "gained" when you buy one Commune you gain another, which in turn gains you another Commune, and another, and so on.

My favorite card from this set is cattle, I like the concept and it seems like it would lead to interesting decisions.
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Greg Slagel


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Just wanted to chime in:

Cool looking set! I can tell attention and thought went into the designs, and as someone else said, its a fan set that I'd really like to play with. Several of the cards are really interesting and offer unique strategic opportunities or just look flat out fun to play with. Nice work.
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Dennison Milenkaya
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Typpo:

You make an excellent point about Epic. In the Secret History of Prosperity, Don talks about how Bishops and Goons cannot hang a game forever because the point tokens are only picked up if a card is trashed or a card is gained and thus some game-ending condition will eventually be met. [1] Monument provided enough coins that people naturally wanted to use, especially if multiple Monuments are played, and collects too few points to worry about without. Playtesters forced a game into that condition and decided that the amount of time setting it up for an endless game of collecting enough points this way to be worthwhile didn't compete against other, easier strategies and they weren't worried about it.

Thus, we can conclude that Epic is a terrible idea. Five (or more) of these (with some card draw, no extra actions required!) could easily out-pace a Province-buying deck and forces the Province-buyer to empty piles without the help of the Epic player, which natually slows down those decks that are already being out-paced.

As to Commune, there are special rules for buying and gaining cards. He specifically chose the wording on Commune to avoid the loop you mention. I read the thread where the discussion took place. Perhaps this is not the best way to word it, because it is really hard to skirt the game term for "gain" but it does avoid saying "When you gain a Commune, gain a Commune." The card is still silly but it is obvious that he's addressed the issue you mention here.

[1] Of course, this isn't strictly true, since Bishops can be played for +1 token without holding any other cards to trash but eventually this becomes only 1 token per turn (or 2 with some crazy Golem combo but that's a bit too complex and still too slow to gain points; or 2 with Throne Rooms but that's still unlikely to be competitive, alone).
 
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  • Last edited Wed Feb 8, 2012 6:07 pm (Total Number of Edits: 2)
  • Posted Fri Feb 3, 2012 7:12 pm
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Matt N


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Typpo wrote:
Some of the cards are interesting and have good concepts, but there are a few that strike me as flawed.

Epic is a interesting card idea that shouldn't exist. All cards that give +1 victory point in prosperity are very careful about it. Bishop and Goons both require you either buy or trash cards, which require a well constructed deck to buy cards and trash them. Monument is a terminal action so in order to make good use of it you have to find natural combos to play it and still have enough money to improve your deck.

When epic is in play the most optimal strategy is buying nothing but epics. With 5 epics in hand you get 5 VP and have enough money to buy another epic. That's it, the optimal strategy for epic. Your deck will never be bloated and you can keep doing it forever. I don't think any +VP effect should exist on a treasure card, but maybe my instinct is off.


I agree, and am glad that you wrote it out first.

I think a treasure card that said, "+1 coin; While this is in play, +1 VP chip for every card of value 5 or greater that you buy" would be a better way to try the treasure route. I make no claims that the card is balanced, however.

Typpo wrote:
Copper Mine seems incredibly weak. For the same price as a silver it's essentially giving you +1 coin when everything is said and done, except that it requires you bloat your deck with copper. Compared to silver it's overpriced or underpowered.


It's meant to combo with select cards. Whether it should be two instead of three, or have some effect like "When you buy this, each other player gains two coppers", is an open question.
 
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Kevin Costello


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Stunna wrote:

It's meant to combo with select cards. Whether it should be two instead of three, or have some effect like "When you buy this, each other player gains two coppers", is an open question.


Also its worth noting that as much as we generally don't like gaining coppers, on the turn its played, copper mine is essentially +1 Card, +1 Action, +1$, which is a good deal at 3. Obviously having to take a copper is a big downside, but if you can mitigate that, or even better turn it to your advantage with strategies that like having coppers, the card could become really good. Like you said, there are a lot of knobs that can be turned to make it better, but in terms of the underlying ideas, copper mine is easily one of my favorites in this bunch.
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Dennison Milenkaya
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It might, Kev, provided that Counting House, Coppersmith, or Apothecary are available but even then it isn't the greatest strategy. I'd really hate to see something more powerful than the typical Workshop or Ironworks to vamp up a Gardens deck--mostly because I don't see that as an interesting combo but an exercise of seeing who does it more.

But the way I see it is that early on, your likely +1 Card is going to pull up another Copper. Later on, after extensive use of this card (and other copies of it; it is chainable and cheap), you'll have crapped so many Coppers into your deck that the +1 Card is still likely to pull another Copper. So the +1 Card, +1 Action, pseudo +1 coin is really just worth a Silver.

Of course, the card draw might be more useful than Copper but it might also not be. Unlike most chainable cards, this one really ups the frequency with which it will be exactly a Copper.

This is why earlier, I said that it looks like a way to merely avoid Silver.
 
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  • Last edited Fri Feb 3, 2012 10:21 pm (Total Number of Edits: 1)
  • Posted Fri Feb 3, 2012 10:18 pm
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Roberta Yang


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Yeah, Cattle is far from the biggest problem with this set; it just jumped out at me because I'd seen it posted here before a long time ago, with exactly the same effect. Apparently all that rigorous playtesting didn't actually bring about any changes for two solid years.

Cards that combo with Copper Mine:

Counting House
Coppersmith
Apothecary
Gardens
Spice Merchant (late-game)
Moneylender (late-game)
Trader
Ambassador (late-game)
Foundry
Exchange Square

And, um, that's all I can find.

But let's pretend I've overlooked a third of the cards that like Copper Mine's extra Coppers and there are actually 15 of them (and that Foundry and Exchange Square are indeed well-balanced cards in their own right). Then between this set and official Dominion, there are 178 other Kingdom cards. The probability of a game containing Copper Mine also containing one of those 15 others is then only about 55% - so even if I'm being absurdly generous, this will still be unsupported in half of the games in which it appears. Meanwhile, because it fattens your deck with junk, it has negative synergy with any card that benefits from combos, or any card that provides draw power, or any card that likes being in a deck that isn't terrible.

Ill-Gotten Gains' effect of gaining a Copper in hand works where this fails for two reasons. First, it's not the main point of the card. The primary purpose of Ill-Gotten Gains is the Curse it gives everyone else; the Copper gain is just something else tacked on. Second, it's optional. If you don't absolutely need the Copper to buy something this turn, you can still play Ill-Gotten Gains for its own +$1 effect. But if you don't want Copper Mine's Copper this turn, you can't even play it for its self-replacing effect.

Outside of extremely obvious combos like Exchange Square, I doubt I would ever buy this.
 
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Joseph Nall
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Thanks everyone for this awesome discussion about my set!
I have been busy writing mid terms so i haven't had time to check much less respond to many of your comments. I hope to be able to comment tomorrow.

oh and however awkwardly bank and copper mine is an interesting combo.
 
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Joseph Nall
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kevincos wrote:
Undrdatree wrote:

I see what you’re getting at. The majority of the games we played visionary in did not out shine any of the competing fours. I have yet to play visionary with a constructed big money deck, but on a few occasions visionary was paired with venture and bank and did not seem to (overly) impose on the other action four choices.

When you're going out of your way to playtest new cards, its probably even easier to lose sight of how your strategies stack up against big money and big money plus.
I say this because I'm skeptical that visionary didn't seem to outshine any of the "competing fours". This is suspicious to me because as a typical game drags on, its pretty common for silver to start to outshine the competing fours once you're crunched for actions, by virtue of it being a treasure card. So if a Silver+ isn't getting a ton of play, its possible that either a lot of your other cards are way overpowered, or that you're getting distracted by shiny new things and playing poorly.

I took your advice and played vanilla big money games and some big money + games. I got crushed; 3rd more times than I care to recount. (in games w/o and w/ my cards)
salty53 wrote:
I'm surprised nobody has mentioned Cattle yet, since it looks to me like a ridiculously strong trasher...
I can't believe that Cattle didn't vastly outshine most traditional trashing power in playtesting.

Yes it outshines most trash cards but not all. Chapel, Remake, Forge and Trade route (mid game) are, in my opinion, better in most games. Cards slightly less powerful than cattle: spice merchant, Trade Route(early game), lookout and loan. For me trash cards are difficult to measure superiority, many times the kingdom cards determine the best trashing strategy. For me, it is more important to create a trash card which functions well with other cards, which causes me to ignore how powerful it potentially would be in a vacuum. For instance in a kingdom card set that includes both cattle and upgrade, I would buy cattle with my $4 then my first $5 would be upgrade. Does that mean cattle = upgrade or cattle > Upgrade? If cattle were “better” than upgrade I should then buy cattle with my $5? Since Upgrade is less concerned with removing numbers from your deck and more focused on, well, upgrading the cards it functions well with cattle because cattle removes those pesky copper from your deck instead of wasting Upgrade. Now add chapel to that set up (chapel upgrade cattle) there become two trashing strategies Chapel + Cattle or Cattle + Upgrade. I might play Cattle + Upgrade because they function better together than Cattle + Chapel. Does that mean Upgrade > Chapel?
FlatOnHisFace wrote:
Ditto to what Salty just said but I guess after a Hunter finds ... any tract of land? to become a chainable Baron

Don’t forget the buy on Baron… secondly imagine a 5 card hand, estate, hunter, x, y, z. Player hunter, hand is: estate, x, y, z; discard estate +1 card +1 action (replacing hunter) hand is: w, x, y, z. after playing hunter your hand has lost a card (down to 4) and you’ve gained $2. Effectively hunter turns victory cards into silver, and without other draw cards hunter can only be played 4 times even in the luckiest situations.
FlatOnHisFace wrote:
Commune included twice as many cards in its supply pile

I have heard that complaint about Commune, why is a double sized supply pile bad?
FlatOnHisFace wrote:
kevincos wrote:
Stunna wrote:
Typpo wrote:
Copper Mine seems incredibly weak. For the same price as a silver it's essentially giving you +1 coin when everything is said and done, except that it requires you bloat your deck with copper. Compared to silver it's overpriced or underpowered.

It's meant to combo with select cards. Whether it should be two instead of three, or have some effect like "When you buy this, each other player gains two coppers", is an open question.

Also its worth noting that as much as we generally don't like gaining coppers, on the turn its played, copper mine is essentially +1 Card, +1 Action, +1$, which is a good deal at 3. Obviously having to take a copper is a big downside, but if you can mitigate that, or even better turn it to your advantage with strategies that like having coppers, the card could become really good. Like you said, there are a lot of knobs that can be turned to make it better, but in terms of the underlying ideas, copper mine is easily one of my favorites in this bunch.

It might, Kev, provided that Counting House, Coppersmith, or Apothecary are available but even then it isn't the greatest strategy. I'd really hate to see something more powerful than the typical Workshop or Ironworks to vamp up a Gardens deck--mostly because I don't see that as an interesting combo but an exercise of seeing who does it more.
But the way I see it is that early on, your likely +1 Card is going to pull up another Copper. Later on, after extensive use of this card (and other copies of it; it is chainable and cheap), you'll have crapped so many Coppers into your deck that the +1 Card is still likely to pull another Copper. So the +1 Card, +1 Action, pseudo +1 coin is really just worth a Silver.
Of course, the card draw might be more useful than Copper but it might also not be. Unlike most chainable cards, this one really ups the frequency with which it will be exactly a Copper.
This is why earlier, I said that it looks like a way to merely avoid Silver.

The way Kev looks at copper mine is very similar to how I look at copper mine. There are A LOT of “knobs” some more effective than others. I went real quickly through the randomizer deck and these are some cards found:
1) Counting House
2) Bank (lots of treasure in hand)
3) Ambassador (giving opponents copper)
4) Wishing Well (most of the deck will be copper)
5) Coppersmith
6) Trader (gain silver instead)
7) Conspirator (another action to chain)
8) Stables (mitigates all the copper)
9) Hunting Party (mitigates all the copper)
10) Trading Post (trash gained copper for silvers)
11) Moneylender (once you ran out of initial copper)
12) Trade Route (once you ran out of initial cards)
13) Spice Merchant (once you ran out of initial copper)
14) Philosopher’s Stone (Makes for big decks)
15) Foundry
16) Exchange Square
17) Apothecary
18) Gardens
19) Bishop (once you ran out of initial cards)
20) Hamlet (Free card to discard)
21) Stash (mitigates the copper for one turn)
22) Inn (put a bunch of copper mines into deck w/o copper)
23) Mine (upgrade the copper same turn)
24) Possession (punishes the possessor w/ copper)
25) Transmute (quick way to gain transmute)
I feel like I’ve missed a few. If I find some more I’ll edit this post.
salty53 wrote:
Apparently all that rigorous playtesting didn't actually bring about any changes for two solid years.

Apparently you still haven’t played it.
FlatOnHisFace wrote:
For as weird as they all seem, most of them look fun to play in whatever situation. I've seen worse on official cards (I'm talking to you, Goons; listen up, Possession & Alchemist!) and I got to thinking if they were official cards, we'd probably accept most of them at face value or at least give them a chance first.

Thanks again for all the conversation and kind comments.


 
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Dennison Milenkaya
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Undrdatree wrote:
Don’t forget the buy on Baron ... Effectively hunter turns victory cards into silver, and without other draw cards hunter can only be played 4 times even in the luckiest situations.


I get it. I think it is thematically awkward (not the worst criticism of Dominion, that's for sure!) A Hunting Party is launched to rescue errant Nobles and looks through the deck for something that's missing and escorts it to the hand. Hunters just find land and -voila!- money.

But there's already stuff to do with Victory cards that make them more than the dead weight that the game gains most of its complexity from. These tend to be "Discard to redraw," "Improve to something else," or "Discard for a coin each." If you have them replace decent money, it might just turn into a matter of Victory cards are always good. You make 'em all as useful as a Harem this way.

And as far as that goes, don't you totally erase the validity of getting a Harem? You'd either never use Hunters on one or else you'd never need the Harem to have that 2 on it.

Undrdatree wrote:
I have heard that complaint about Commune, why is a double sized supply pile bad?


I suppose that nothing unto itself is bad about it but that it isn't the kind of card you'd usually want in bulk. Still, for Gardens and Silk Roads, it could be really cool to get them in bulk like this. There might be other reasons you'd want a bunch of these but extra stuff (like not forgetting to leave a Duration card out or taking an extra Commune) adds more to keep track of. Duration cards are rather numerous so we get used to it and they are nicely colored differently to flag us that we need to pay attention to them.

I really don't think it is a bad thing but I can't help but feeling "Do we need this?" Still, I know that even though the answer is "No, we don't need it," it could still add something new and interesting to the game, which is why I said it is worth giving a chance and if it were part of an official release, we'd just accept it as-is.

Undrdatree wrote:
The way Kev looks at copper mine is very similar to how I look at copper mine. There are A LOT of “knobs” some more effective than others. I went real quickly through the randomizer deck and these are some cards found:
1) Counting House
2) Bank (lots of treasure in hand)
3) Ambassador (giving opponents copper)
4) Wishing Well (most of the deck will be copper)
5) Coppersmith
6) Trader (gain silver instead)
7) Conspirator (another action to chain)
8) Stables (mitigates all the copper)
9) Hunting Party (mitigates all the copper)
10) Trading Post (trash gained copper for silvers)
11) Moneylender (once you ran out of initial copper)
12) Trade Route (once you ran out of initial cards)
13) Spice Merchant (once you ran out of initial copper)
14) Philosopher’s Stone (Makes for big decks)
15) Foundry
16) Exchange Square
17) Apothecary
18) Gardens
19) Bishop (once you ran out of initial cards)
20) Hamlet (Free card to discard)
21) Stash (mitigates the copper for one turn)
22) Inn (put a bunch of copper mines into deck w/o copper)
23) Mine (upgrade the copper same turn)
24) Possession (punishes the possessor w/ copper)
25) Transmute (quick way to gain transmute)
I feel like I’ve missed a few. If I find some more I’ll edit this post.


1) Counting House is valid.
2) Bank is not; you can easily improve the ratio of Treasure cards in hand by not getting other things or else choosing Action cards with draw power--essentially by playing well. Banks are not improved by putting the weakest Treasure cards in your deck. You lose all the integrity of the Bank's possible high value by having a handful of otherwise really weak Treasure cards. 2 Golds and a Bank = 4 Coppers and a Bank < 3 Silvers and a Bank. Copper is always worse.
3) Ambassador wins no points for Copper Mine. You only need a single Copper in your deck to have Ambassador dish 'em out; you never need to return the Copper to the supply so you never need to resupply your own. Besides, your opponents are very likely to be giving you enough Coppers so you never need to worry about how you'll get more simply to hand them back.
4) Wishing Well might gain stability if most of your deck is Copper but the Silver that you could've bought instead of Copper Mine means that the one card is worth guessing right and drawing two Coppers. Plus, with Silvers and Wishing Wells, you still have less variance than Coppers, Copper Mines, and Wishing Wells.
5) Coppersmith makes an obviously valid combo.
6) Traders can allow the gaining of Silver instead, nullifying the other cards which benefit from Copper to make Copper Mine any good but with Traders, any gain or +1 Buy can be a Silver; you'll have such an easy time of getting Silver that you don't need this for that. And when you aren't holding both at once, then what ... curse your luck?
7) Conspirator is somewhat applicable. Yes, it is another chainable action to kick off a conspiracy but those are currently plentiful and unlike nearly every other contender, this one makes the odds of successfully kicking off a conspiracy less likely every time you do it. You want more reliable fully chainable Action cards, not more dead weight, which Copper is.
8) Stables is also valid, but only as much as any +1 Buy.
9) Hunting Party is false. If the entire idea is to mitigate all the Copper by drawing beyond it with the Hunting Party, then why cram it into the deck in the first place? The idea that you ought to hurt yourself much of the time because sometimes, you can effectively deal with it is absurd and that is no kind of valid combo.
10) Trading Posts are usually too slow for trashing that specifically including trash to gain Silver is slower than just buying Silver and you're likely to work through most of your initial crap throughout most of the game already.
11) Moneylender has some validity, but see Trading Post.
12) Trade Route is also pretty slow for the trashing of initial cards. There's some merit to this but it is lost if Ambassadors or any other Curse-giving cards are around. And if Traders are around when they are, you certainly don't need Copper Mine to make a Silver-generating combo. The Trade Route would need to be worth a pretty penny to make including a card that craps trash into your deck worthwhile specifically for it.
13) Spice Merchant is valid, but only requires any +1 Buy cards.
14) Philosopher's Stone kind of has the same problem as Bank: Sure, you want a big deck for it but if that deck is big because it primarily consists of nigh-worthless crap, what's the point of having the occasional high-valued Stone?
15) As for Foundry &
16) Exchange Square, I'm no expert with them and I'm not even certain these are in their final ready-to-play forms so evaluation is currently useless.
17) Apothecary has merit but even when I do buy a few for a deck, I'm still more than happy to trash my Coppers and rarely do I ever want many more. Even if I do, any +1 Buy works just as well as Copper Mine.
18) Gardens do benefit from this card and I consider that a bad thing. As I mentioned before, I'd prefer if there weren't easier ways than Workshop and (gulp!) Ironworks to make Gardens decks even better. Yet, Traders does and remarkably better than this.
19) Bishop loses points here as a combo because you either use it as a trasher, meaning you don't need to add trash to your deck for its sake, or you are using it for virtual victory points, in which case, trashing Copper is the worst card possible to combo with it. Even trashing a Curse is better in this respect!
20) Hamlet gets a familiar fail notice for the fact that if you are just looking to add crap for a painless discard, you are doing something wrong. Notice, too, that Hamlets provide that frequently mentioned "+1 Buy" that works just as good for this purpose as Copper Mine. So, too, does it for Hamlet's painless discard and when was the last time you saw someone that used Hamlets buy Coppers just to have something to discard?
21) Stash? I don't know how it mitigates the Copper at all but, again, if the entire point of comboing a card with Copper Mine is to make the damage Copper Mine does occasionally not entirely disruptive, than you're playing a horrible strategy. Not playing Copper Mine at all completely mitigates its lasting damage.
22) Using Inn to put a bunch of Copper Mines in the deck with the Coppers in the discard pile is nothing but a way to avoid getting your old Copper to acquire new Copper and ultimately it just means not getting cards that are already worth more than an average 2 and up the frequency with which you need to muddle through them more. That's worse than not shuffling the Copper Mines back in. And anytime you should rather not use that Action card, despite it being fully chainable, then you've got an extraordinarily bad card in your deck.
23) Mine has some merit but less than it would comboing with the Silver that you could've been holding in lieu of the Copper Mine.
24) Possession has no validity. This is pretty much exclusive to the garbage card that Possession turned out to be but if your idea of using Copper Mine to punish your opponent for playing Possession isn't the same as punishing yourself more for your opponent playing Possession, then I'd like to see the slight-of-hand you use at the table.
25) Transmute will find plenty of valid targets in your initial 7 Coppers that even if your opponents don't buy a single Transmute, you can already pick up 8 without ever buying a second Transmute nor another Copper--9, if you don't need that Potion for anything else. Do you need a Copper Mine for that 10th and final Transmute card? Because you could buy a Silver for exactly that purpose, instead, and have something more useful for the interim.

So, my earlier count of about three good combos for Copper Mine and one or two that make it ugly stands pretty solid. Even if you like the idea of using them for Gardens (whereas I absolutely don't), they can still just be +1 Buy cards and make that Gardens deck just as good, as would most of these so-called potential combo cards. But that's really the crux of the issue: Copper is a free card already; it doesn't need to be easier to get. I think this discussion proves that even if you hand out Coppers without requiring the usage of an Action, Card, nor Buy and allow it to go straight to the player's hand, it still doesn't make picking up Coppers a good idea. At least, not enough to devote some other Buy and an Action card that you'll likely not want to play more than a couple of times (and becomes dead weight from then on, despite looking fully chainable) worthwhile.
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  • Last edited Fri Feb 10, 2012 4:41 am (Total Number of Edits: 1)
  • Posted Fri Feb 10, 2012 4:27 am
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Chris Morrow
United States

Pennsylvania
Here are my "un-playtested" thoughts on each card…

Astrolabe — This looks almost strictly inferior to Oracle, but it's hard to say. The problem is that if one of the two cards is junk, putting it at the bottom is arguably weaker than discarding it; it will come up sooner than a discarded card would. Then again, maybe multiple Astrolabes can effectively keep the junk away, which would be a fun tactic; plus, you might even deliberatly put the good cards together, in preparation for a good turn (but that would take a lot of Astrolabes). Since Pearl Diver is the only official card that interacts with the bottom of the deck (and it can't put anything there) I don't have much experience with that kind of mechanic.

Compass — The "replay" ability would definitely be overpowered were it not for the discard penalty. That's a good bit of balance. Multiple Compasses would allow you to play the same card every turn Compass comes up, like the Golem/Scheme combo, but with a restricted hand. Interesting.

Epic — In principle, I like simple cards like this. However, this is too powerful, as Jaren Maddock discusses. A cost of $5 might fix things (and/or a value as Treasure of $0, like Horn of Plenty), but there should probably be some sort of more interesting balance. Here's a crazy idea: make the card like Mining Village. You get the money, then optionally trash it for some quantity of VP.

Copper Mine — This card's uselessness has been discussed plenty now. The most similar official card is Oasis, so the big question is: Is the overall drawback of gaining a Copper equivalent to the drawback of discarding a card? My gut says that it's worse.

A funny bit of trivia is that "Copper Mine" was an early name for the card that became simply "Copper", along with the other basic Treasures being called Mines. (When you think about it, that actually makes more sense, because Treasure cards "generate coins" and don't leave your deck; however, the one-word name is easier to deal with.) So in a sense, this card is a "Copper Mine Mine".

Visionary — Neat card, and fitting title. I can't think of any needed fixes. I wouldn't worry too much about the "$4 Silver-plus problem" that others have raised, but it seems to me that you could whack off $1 from both the value and the price and the result would be a perfectly good competitor to Silver, on about the same level as Loan.

Commune — The current wording seems like a simple statement of the rules for gaining a card. I suppose what you mean is that you always get a second Commune, "two for the price of one". If so, I like this card. A double-half-Harem, what'll they think of next?

I was going to say that the second Commune may as well be "gained", but of course, as Jaren Maddock pointed out, that would lead to an infinite loop, and the whole game would just be "first player to $3 wins". Anyway, here is my rewording:

Quote:
$1
1VP
When you gain this card, take a second Commune from the Supply and place it in your discard pile.


Alternatively (and making for a weaker card): When you buy this card, gain a second Commune.

A note on wording: Jaren wrote:

Quote:
"Since anytime you acquire a card in dominion it is considered "gained"


That's not strictly true. When you acquire a card from Masquerade, you merely have it "passed" to you. (Otherwise, there would be problems with revealing Trader; where would the passed card go?) In general, you only "gain" a card when a card's text uses that word, or immediately after you "buy" it. So a properly worded Commune works out fine.

Cattle — "Persistent" Durations are very problematic without at least a page of extra rules. I guess the idea of this one is that it stays in play until a turn in which you decide not to trash anything from your hand. I can't forsee any specific rules issues, but I bet there are some somewhere along the line.

I hadn't noticed the similarity to Spice Merchant that Roberta Yang pointed out. Embarrassingly, I had written that this card looked weak to me. Hmm. Maybe the drawback should be gaining more than one Copper, or perhaps there should be some way in which it keeps "forcing" you to trash stuff until you have a lucky break — a sort of Sorcerer's Apprentice, so to speak.

Foundry — I like this idea, but "any-time events" are tricky in a game like Dominion. In principle, you would only ever want to spend such tokens during your Action and Buy phases, and not, for example, during someone else's turn, but as worded the card allows doing so.

Meanwhile, the precise effect could be adjusted to match that of the card Pirate Ship; you don't actually need "Copper tokens" but just the same tokens that Pirate Ship and Trade Route use. Here's my rewording:

Quote:
Trash a Copper from your hand, or reveal a hand with no Copper. If you trashed a Copper, add two Coin tokens to your Foundry mat.
-----
At any time during any of your Buy phases, you may return a Coin token from your Foundry mat to the Supply. If you do, +$1.


The "one at a time" thing is probably slightly clearer than "as many as you want", even if the actual result is exactly the same.

Exchange Square — A common idea, but worked out well here. A Victory that bumps in increments of 2 instead of 1 creates interesting situations, strategically; this card compares to Fairgrounds for that reason.

Journeyer — Huh, there are a lot of cards to compare this to. This would, of course, be much weaker than Cellar if it did not replace itself. It compares decently to Stables, so it's probably priced right.

Infrastructure — In addition to the issues others have mentioned, the text is a possible source of confusion, what with the multiple Infrastructures going on. Maybe a clearer, though weaker, version would simply have the Infrastructure that you played go on the bottom of your deck, period. Of course, that's so different from the current mechanic that it may be going too far.

I guess I'm not terribly fond of cards that are "necessarily perpetual", since it's like the card is telling you what your strategy should be. Many cards have the ability to put themselves back on top, but either with the requirement of something else happening (Alchemist) or only because the card didn't really help you (Walled Village, Scheme).

Hmm, now I'm interested in trying out my idea. The "new" Infrastructure would basically be "Village that comes up with increasing frequency", and quite possibly worth just about the same as a Walled Village.

Hunter — Hey, it's a Conspiring Baron. Neat. It's priced right, and I don't have much else to say. I'd like to try it sometime.

Heirloom — I just might call this an Inn-Gotten Gains. But I won't. It looks okay. The Big Money problem doesn't seem too bad in my mind, since if your deck is in a position to benefit from the insertion of Silvers and Golds, then it's probably thin enough that you're close to a reshuffle anyway. It seems like the main effect of this card is to spend $6 in order to have one or two great turns, so it's sort of a "compressed" Gold. That sounds reasonable.

Edict — I have thought about cards like this, to add to the Embargo family. This could get especially interesting in multiplayer, with multiple piles going through the flipping process. As it happens, my own idea was similar, in that the same Action card would both "lock" and "unlock" piles, but in my version, if you wanted to lock a pile, you returned the Action card to the Supply first, rather like with Embargo's self-trashing. Maybe a self-trahing penalty should apply here too, but only after the start of the next turn, of course.

In any case, both with Edict and my own idea, I am worried about possible rules conflicts for when a certain card "must" be gained. For example, could you Edict against the Curse pile, thus preventing all Cursing attacks from being effective? And when a card such as Ironworks gains you a card, can you deliberately choose an "Edicted" pile and then get nothing (say, you attempt to Ironworks a Nobles just for the cantripping), or do you have to treat the pile as if it were empty? Maybe the restriction should be solely against buying Edicted cards and not gaining them, as with Embargo. Although again, we would need to clarify interactions with, for example, Noble Brigand. (Should the sequence go: "I buy Noble Brigand. Everyone gets Briganded. I would now gain the card, except it has been Edicted." Probably not.)

Philosophers — Huh. I like the idea of using dice with a card, but not with something already as random as a Black Market. In any case, I feel that a very important clarification must be made: Black Market does not use the randomizer cards, because those cards are a different color on the back! (Only Stash has a different back; with any other card, it's too easy to "accidentally" shuffle it a certain way.) This card shouldn't use the randomizers either; rather, it should use the Black Market deck (as you've already mentioned doing) or its own separate deck, made from one copy of various unused cards.

Here's an idea that may make the dice aspect more strategic: you reveal and discard cards from your deck until you hit one costing $2 or more, then gain the first Black Market card with the same cost. So that way you're paying the penalty of skipping a card that's (roughly) as good as the card you gain.

Maurauders — I like this! Attacks that allow you to choose what to discard are very tricky to not make overpowered. This looks like it should work.

Blockade — I like the possibility of another "optional" Attack besides Minion. It would certainly force you to pay extra attention to other players' stuff. However, it may be too strong, as others have noted. Perhaps there should be a limit to how many cards can me reshuffled in, or perhaps the attacked players get some kind of benefit, eg drawing a card. (Or gaining a Silver? There's something I've never seen an Attack do…)

Throne — A good idea, but it could lead to confusion, especially with cards that have a cleanup-phase effect, or (especially) Duration cards. A good thing about this one is that it's not an action, so there's no confusion about it applying to itself. I do like the idea of a $6 Treasure that only gives you $1…

Travelers — That's a really, really trusty steed you got there… nice card, may be overpowered.

Circus — Darn it, that's the name of a card I'm working on. This card looks like it has a lot of potential for confusion (appropriately enough!). For example, does the "$1 less" thing happen only during the Buy phase, or at all times? Does "differently named cards in play" include all players' Duration cards? Does the change only apply to the Supply, or to Circuses in general?

As for the "$8" bit, I'm not sure how that's supposed to mix with the other cost adjustment; is it meant to make the card weaker (because 8 is less than 11) or stronger (because the adjusted cost may well be 7 or less). Plus, there's only so many cards that trash-and-care-about-cost; the $8 thing may as well be more general.

Maybe a better version would be: Circuses in the Supply cost $1 less per differently named card in play. Circuses outside the Supply cost exactly $8.
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  • Posted Sun Feb 26, 2012 1:15 am
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Armand
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So... how would someone go about making up a set of these cards to mix in?
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Joseph Nall
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FlatOnHisFace wrote:

2) Bank is not; you can easily improve the ratio of Treasure cards in hand by not getting other things or else choosing Action cards with draw power--essentially by playing well. Banks are not improved by putting the weakest Treasure cards in your deck. You lose all the integrity of the Bank's possible high value by having a handful of otherwise really weak Treasure cards. 2 Golds and a Bank = 4 Coppers and a Bank < 3 Silvers and a Bank. Copper is always worse.

Yes copper is always worse but copper mine is not.
For instance 2 gold and a bank = $9
2 copper mine and a bank = minimum $5, 7, 8, 9, 11, 12, 13, 15 or MAX 17
So a card which costs half of the other can achieve much better results.
FlatOnHisFace wrote:

8) Stables is also valid, but only as much as any +1 Buy.

Not really. The copper being placed in your hand gives you immediate fodder for stables which is better than waiting till the buy phase and having to hope to draw them together.
FlatOnHisFace wrote:

9) Hunting Party is false. If the entire idea is to mitigate all the Copper by drawing beyond it with the Hunting Party, then why cram it into the deck in the first place? The idea that you ought to hurt yourself much of the time because sometimes, you can effectively deal with it is absurd and that is no kind of valid combo.

This is the only other one I really disagree with you on, mitigating copper mine is a decent strategy. +1 Card, +1 Action and effectively +1$ is powerful in the beginning of the game and if there are cards, like hunting party, which let you have that effect without being as detrimental that then becomes a valid strategy.
The main “problem” with copper mine is there are not enough real combinations. While I wrote there were at least 25 combinations, I do realize not all combinations are equal. Many of the 25 are “unusable” without a 3rd, 4th, or even 5th card to help the combo work. Just because you can’t win with most of the 25 combinations does not mean copper mine has no use. Copper Mine is fun to play and when you’re playing with family that is the goal as much as winning.
I will suggest that the following are viable strategies for copper mine in a competitive game:
1. Bank
2. Stables
3. Hunting Party
4. Gardens
5. Exchange square
6. Coppersmith
7. Counting House
8. Apothecary

Lenoxus wrote:

Commune I was going to say that the second Commune may as well be "gained", but of course, as Jaren Maddock pointed out, that would lead to an infinite loop, and the whole game would just be "first player to $3 wins". Anyway, here is my rewording:
Quote:
$1
1VP
When you gain this card, take a second Commune from the Supply and place it in your discard pile.

Alternatively (and making for a weaker card): When you buy this card, gain a second Commune.

I’m glad you like commune; when I first started to play test this card it read: “When you buy this card, gain a commune.” Almost exactly as you wrote, but I found that ironwork-ing (along with many other gain cards) a commune was a lot of fun. I have been trying ever since to figure out the best wording for as you put it "two for the price of one." You rewording is another improvement upon what I had, but it still leaves something to be desire (as did the previous wording obviously).
Lenoxus wrote:
Cattle — Hmm. Maybe the drawback should be gaining more than one Copper

I like this idea I’ll probably give it a few rounds of play. Maybe 2 copper or even 3.
Lenoxus wrote:
foundry…you would only ever want to spend such tokens during your Action and Buy phases, and not, for example, during someone else's turn, but as worded the card allows doing so.
Trash a Copper from your hand, or reveal a hand with no Copper. If you trashed a Copper, add two Coin tokens to your Foundry mat.
-----
At any time during any of your Buy phases, you may return a Coin token from your Foundry mat to the Supply. If you do, +$1.


I agree the one at a time is clearer, but I’m not sure the any time on any players turn wording is a problem… I kinda like the idea that if someone possess me (or some other ill effect) I can spend the stored money before my opponent does.
Lenoxus wrote:
Infrastructure —I guess I'm not terribly fond of cards that are "necessarily perpetual", since it's like the card is telling you what your strategy should be.

I completely agree! The card should read: “When you discard this card from play you may reveal the bottom card of your deck.
Lenoxus wrote:
Edict In any case, both with Edict and my own idea, I am worried about possible rules conflicts for when a certain card "must" be gained. For example, could you Edict against the Curse pile, thus preventing all Cursing attacks from being effective? And when a card such as Ironworks gains you a card, can you deliberately choose an "Edicted" pile and then get nothing (say, you attempt to Ironworks a Nobles just for the cantripping), or do you have to treat the pile as if it were empty? Maybe the restriction should be solely against buying Edicted cards and not gaining them, as with Embargo. Although again, we would need to clarify interactions with, for example, Noble Brigand. (Should the sequence go: "I buy Noble Brigand. Everyone gets Briganded. I would now gain the card, except it has been Edicted." Probably not.)

If I wrote the rules I would transcribe it like you assumed: “you have to treat the pile as if it were empty.” This card is the most fun when each player plays a few. When a player plays the second turn effect of edict that player can turn back up any card s/he chooses not necessarily the card that s/he put facedown, that’s when Edict is its best.
Lenoxus wrote:
Circus — Darn it, that's the name of a card I'm working on. This card looks like it has a lot of potential for confusion (appropriately enough!). For example, does the "$1 less" thing happen only during the Buy phase, or at all times? Does "differently named cards in play" include all players' Duration cards? Does the change only apply to the Supply, or to Circuses in general?
As for the "$8" bit, I'm not sure how that's supposed to mix with the other cost adjustment; is it meant to make the card weaker (because 8 is less than 11) or stronger (because the adjusted cost may well be 7 or less). Plus, there's only so many cards that trash-and-care-about-cost; the $8 thing may as well be more general.

Undrdatree wrote:
Buggy wrote:
For Circus, does that include cards opponents may have in play, such as Durations?


thanks for pointing that out. As it is becoming more apparent my wording is not 100%. It should be:
Name: Circus
Card Type: Action
Text: +1 Card, +1 Action, +1 Buy, +$2. Circus costs $1 less per differently named cards you have in play. When circus is trashed it is worth $8
Cost:11

The effect happens outside of the buy phase. So if you were lucky enough to be able to get 7 differently named cards in play you could play ironworks for circus. The $8 part is my attempt to make circus like peddler in that you can expand them into colonies remodel/upgrade them into platimums.

Chris and Dennison thanks for the through reviews they are VERY helpful conceptually.

doctoryes0 wrote:
So... how would someone go about making up a set of these cards to mix in?

I should have done this a while ago:http://www.mediafire.com/?89wb5206hc00jzw
that is a link to the word document i used to print the cards.
1) download that file
2)a. print the document
2)b. if you don't have a color printer you can take it to staples office max etc and print it for like ~$20
3) cut the cards out
4)sleeve them in front of Intrige's copper and other starting cards

Hope that helps. Thanks for everything.
 
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  • Last edited Wed Feb 29, 2012 8:46 pm (Total Number of Edits: 1)
  • Posted Wed Feb 29, 2012 8:42 pm
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