sean dolbee
United States
Grass Valley
California
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Here's the situation. Germany has surrendered and all German hexes in Germany are now Britain's.
Germany's conquest are up for grabs how is the movement for these oblectives carried out?
Look at Antwerp if Britain wanted to take it and France wanted it also who gets it?
France has units closer also look at Warsaw Russia has eye's on it as well what do you guys think?
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Doug Poskitt
United Kingdom
Grays
Essex
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Well, this is an interesting situation.
As per the rules, any power that could occupy an objective hex by, for example, moving into it, would grab the objective.
However, if France and Britain (multi-player game) both have an eye on the same objective hex, and had units in place such that they could both move into the hex in the same movement phase, what are the mechanics for this? As far as I am aware, the rules don't mention anything about priority of movement between allies.
As I read it, with survival based on dates making French victory conditions in a multi-player game, France's interest in securing objectives hexes would lay purely in reducing the British tally.
So, how do de Gaulle and Churchill fight the cold war? Is there any mention of this type of situation in the rules?
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sean dolbee
United States
Grass Valley
California
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We planed to just finnished the last few turns to see "What if" so the situation is
So Britain will get Essen and Bresslau, France has Antwerp blocked, and Russia and Britain can each reach Warsaw the next turn,Krakow will be Russian because it has units in range and no one else does.
So at the moment Britain actually has 13/21 and Russia has 12/18 with Warsaw in the balance counting Krakow as Russian. France has 4 and blocks Antwerp, for the moment. With 13 up for grabs, 5 of which are Italian.
Can Britain move thru French forces that are not in France?
The Allies have worked together to eliminate Germany.
Now our alliance has a few cracks in it.
I can pretty much gaurantee the French are not going to alow any British in or thru France but can they do the same with areas out side there own country?
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Doug Poskitt
United Kingdom
Grays
Essex
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The rules state that - using Hungary as a German Minor Ally by way of an example - that Italy could enter Hungary with German permission. So, as Hungarian hexes are deemed German-controlled, wouldn't the same apply to hexes controlled by France outside of France itself?
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Florian Friedrich
Canada
Halifax
Nova Scotia
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I would say the French would try to control all the hexes around an objective, then allow Russian units in if they can find a route around the British controlled hexes. Whichever side has a lower current victory level would also want prevent Italy from being conquered until they themselves could take the lead.
I believe there is a mechanic whereby a die roll determines who moves first, and the players take turns moving one unit at a time.
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Florian Friedrich
Canada
Halifax
Nova Scotia
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Here are some of the relevant rules. Note the sentence in bold.
51.4 No player may move ground units to or over hexes controlled by an ally, during Movement or SR, without that ally‘s consent. Nor may he base air or naval units at a base controlled by his ally without consent. A player who controls a supply source may never refuse to allow an ally to trace supply from it. See, however, 45.5.
51.5 Whenever on the same turn two allies wish to attack the same minor country or colony, or to intervene in the same minor country, and cannot reach agreement on how to proceed, a coin is flipped. Winner of the flip may move one unit into, or adjacent to the forces of, the territory in question. The loser then moves one unit, and they continue to alternate until one or the other does not desire to move any more units in that vicinity. This procedure may be used either during Movement, Combat, Exploitation, or SR; and may be adapted for other instances where allies cannot reach agreement on how to proceed. Since such disagreements indicate a strain on the alliance, units of the allies concerned may not stack together on that front for the remainder of that player turn—though units already stacked together could remain so if they did not move.
51.6 On subsequent turns, no nation may enter a country which has been attacked by its ally without that ally‘s permission. Such permission, once given, may not later be revoked. When two or more allies participate in a conquest which yields BRPs, they may divide those BRPs in any manner they desire. If they are unable to reach agreement the BRPs are divided equally, dropping fractions.
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sean dolbee
United States
Grass Valley
California
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dougposkitt wrote: The rules state that - using Hungary as a German Minor Ally by way of an example - that Italy could enter Hungary with German permission. So, as Hungarian hexes are deemed German-controlled, wouldn't the same apply to hexes controlled by France outside of France itself?
What if they only control some hexes in the country and have not conquered the contry?
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Doug Poskitt
United Kingdom
Grays
Essex
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dolbee123 wrote: dougposkitt wrote: The rules state that - using Hungary as a German Minor Ally by way of an example - that Italy could enter Hungary with German permission. So, as Hungarian hexes are deemed German-controlled, wouldn't the same apply to hexes controlled by France outside of France itself?
What if they only control some hexes in the country and have not conquered the contry?
It would seem 51.4 confirms my example (on a hex by hex basis) and answers your question.
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Patrick Bauer
United States
Reading
Pennsylvania
Poop Water Too
Down here I'm considered the apotheosis of cool.
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51.6 is interesting. Neither Britain nor France has actually attacked into Italy but both have attacked Italian units seperately. Does this mean: he who attacks Italian soil first "locks out" the other player?
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SewerStarFish wrote: 51.6 is interesting. Neither Britain nor France has actually attacked into Italy but both have attacked Italian units seperately. Does this mean: he who attacks Italian soil first "locks out" the other player?
In spite of having an army only slightly larger than Turkey or Spain, Italy is not a "minor country" or "colony".
Britain would do better offering the BRPs and conquest of the Low Countries in exchange for Antwerp.
I'm just wondering why y'all seem to have such problems with your allies... :whistle:
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OMG They Killed Kenny
Canada
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SewerStarFish wrote: 51.6 is interesting. Neither Britain nor France has actually attacked into Italy but both have attacked Italian units seperately. Does this mean: he who attacks Italian soil first "locks out" the other player?
Another case of 'poor choice of words'. I do not read 'attacked' in this context as meaning 'having previously attacked a unit of', but rather DoW'd. Italy of course provides an exception, as being a major power (as pointed out above), they may DoW, rather than just being the target of a DoW. So, for instance, if France were to DoW Italy (i.e. pay the BRP's, and note only one power may actually pay the BRPs, the cost cannot be shared), I suppose 51.6 could be read to mean that they could 'lock out' Britain. However, if it was originally Italy that made the DoW, it seems 51.6 would not be applicable.
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sean dolbee
United States
Grass Valley
California
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Italy made the DOW in this case.
This game has really gotten interesting.
Most games just end with Germany gone.In a multi-player game the victory conditions make it so every nation has a chance to win not necessarily the nation that entered Berlin.
Looking back at the game at this point,Maybe I as the British player shouldn't of helped out the French as much.
Funny,I needed France in the game to defeat Germany.
Now France has a chance to win the game not England....Lol!
In all fairness France did most of the work he used the #16 Variant that gave him either extra armor or extra armor and air.
He took extra armor.
If you look at the board France looks like they could take on Russia!
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Patrick Bauer
United States
Reading
Pennsylvania
Poop Water Too
Down here I'm considered the apotheosis of cool.
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Well the implications for this "Let's see which Allied power wins" scenario means that the two players can lock out each other from even having the opportunity of taking the objective. It then may behoove a power to rush the conquest of Italy to deny the other player the time to finish the conquests.
With some twists. In the present situation, Britain is poised to DoW Sweden as it has units in Oslo. But Russia can simply insist on East front attritions, making taking Stockholm a several turn adventure until all units are eliminated.
Or Italy can be overly generous to one side giving it all the objectives it needs by ceding all but Rome, allowing the chosen Allied power to surround Rome, and evacuating the minor forces from any objective; all in the hopes that the Chosen One will let Italy get a second place. Of course that doesn't work in a three-player game because the Axis player is bound by Germany's conditions.
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Patrick Bauer
United States
Reading
Pennsylvania
Poop Water Too
Down here I'm considered the apotheosis of cool.
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dolbee123 wrote: Looking back at the game at this point,Maybe I as the British player shouldn't of helped out the French as much.
Funny,I needed France in the game to defeat Germany.
Now France has a chance to win the game not England....Lol!
Since this is a three-player game: one player is bound by the British victory conditions, the other by the Russian's, the Axis by Germany's; because rule 2.5 says "However, in cases where one player controls two or more powers in a game still governed by multi-player victory conditions that player must immediately abide by the victory conditions of the nation he controls which currently controls the most objective hexes" and its DQB affirms that it applies to games that start with a player controlling two powers. France & Italy can not "win" this game.
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SewerStarFish wrote: ...
With some twists. In the present situation, Britain is poised to DoW Sweden as it has units in Oslo. But Russia can simply insist on East front attritions, making taking Stockholm a several turn adventure until all units are eliminated.
...
Not if Hitler and Stalin were not at war...
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SewerStarFish wrote: dolbee123 wrote: Looking back at the game at this point,Maybe I as the British player shouldn't of helped out the French as much.
Funny,I needed France in the game to defeat Germany.
Now France has a chance to win the game not England....Lol! Since this is a three-player game: one player is bound by the British victory conditions, the other by the Russian's, the Axis by Germany's; because rule 2.5 says "However, in cases where one player controls two or more powers in a game still governed by multi-player victory conditions that player must immediately abide by the victory conditions of the nation he controls which currently controls the most objective hexes" and its DQB affirms that it applies to games that start with a player controlling two powers. France & Italy can not "win" this game.
Is the French Player also handling USSR or UK?
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sean dolbee
United States
Grass Valley
California
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The USSR.
Interesting situation we have here.
I usually concede the game at this point,this has really gotten kinda tense.
The French player is also the Russian.
With victory conditions so close I think the French may try to block me out,so the Russians can get ahold of more objectives.
I like that about Sweden,If Britain DOW then Russia could spoil the plans........nice,glad I didn't DOW Sweden!....lol.
Sean
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OMG They Killed Kenny
Canada
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IMHO the only situation where a 'Red Star / White Star' sort of scenario is played out is if each major has a separate player. The only 'pairing' allowed should be Britain-US, who share the same victory conditions regardless. Even then, France's victory conditions don't make much sense - they should be fully participating in the 'grab' for objectives, not just in the negative sense of denying them to others. And of course trying to hand them off to the Soviets makes no sense at all.
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Patrick Bauer
United States
Reading
Pennsylvania
Poop Water Too
Down here I'm considered the apotheosis of cool.
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Just as Italy is Germany's pawn for a single Axis player, the stated victory conditions for the Franco-Russian player makes France Russia's pawn. These are the rules, in a three player game France's survival doesn't help the F-R player directly and costs the UK/US player about 4 objectives.
Plus it is awfully difficult for Russia to take advantage of any French opportunities. Britain controls Kiel so Russia won't be able to SR by sea escort to take Antwerp by that route, Istanbul and the Dardenelles must be captured before any East-Med transport can occur. And Britain can now block a direct SR by merely beating France to Venice, which it is poised to do.
Every objective France takes is eliminated from Russia's possible captures too. In all likelyhood Britain and Russia will each fare no better than a stalemate. Even if France surrounds Rome, Britain will soon have an airborne and thus be able to dictate the end of game. But if Britain surrounds Rome first, there'll be a slight edge because it will take a few turns more for Russia to get into airborne range. And then, it will only be able to dictate first attack on Rome if Britain is out of BRPs because of Russo-Allied joint attack protocol: Britain will have more factors at hand and get to go first, plus with half of Germany's BRP value Britain won't be running out of BRPs any more, except maybe this year.
This all being played in good fun. DeGaul kicked NATO troops out of France in real life. Here, resplendid in victory, he has no debts to Albion and pits Britain against the Socialist revolution. Let the US wage its war in Asia, socialism will dominate Europe.
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I'm not entirely certain USSR can DOW Italy now that Germany is out. I'd like to see that rule. IIRC, they need to be adjacent. They can roll up the Poland (assuming no British/French units are there *NUDGE* *NUDGE* *WINK* *WINK*), Turkey, and the (non-garrisoned by German unit) Pro-Axis Minors, however, in their attempt to get close enough...
Similarly, until they ARE at war with the Axis, they MAY NOT control British or French options on the Eastern Front. Open season on the Swedes...
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Patrick Bauer
United States
Reading
Pennsylvania
Poop Water Too
Down here I'm considered the apotheosis of cool.
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Germany's conquest has resulted in Germany's failure to adhere its east front garrison requirements of 43.2 which is the exception to 21.54
21.54 starts with: "Russia may not declare war on Germany or Italy or take any action that would automatically result in war with Germany until the Fall 1941 turn". At present a DoW vs Italy can not possibly result in "war with Germany" thus Russia can DoW Italy.
But at present it is too far away to fulfill the requirement to even satisfy the DoW. They need a turn at least to be close enough to Italy's Yugoslavian conquest.
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Posted Wed Feb 1, 2012 5:42 pm
