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BoardGameGeek» Forums » Everything Else » Religion, Sex, and Politics

Subject: Petition to Apple: We want an 'ethical' iPhone 5 rss

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Go-vangelist
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http://sumofus.org/campaigns/ethical-iphone/

A new online petition asking that Apple clean up its act overseas in time to make its next iPhone "the first ethical iPhone."

Every day, tens of millions of people will swipe the screens of their iPhones to unlock them.

On the other side of the world, a young girl is also swiping those screens. During her 12+ hour shifts, six days a week, she repetitively swipes tens of thousands of them. She spends those hours inhaling n-hexane, a potent neurotoxin used to clean iPhone glass, because it dries a few seconds faster than a safe alternative.

After just a few years on the line, she will be fired because the neurological damage from the n-hexane and the repetitive stress injuries to her wrists and hands make her unable to continue performing up to standard....
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  • Last edited Thu Feb 2, 2012 12:44 am (Total Number of Edits: 1)
  • Posted Thu Feb 2, 2012 12:43 am
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J
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Not Just Wrong- SPECTACULARLY WRONG.
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I can't thumb a blatant propaganda poster, no matter how I much I might agree with the sentiment and the facts behind it.

Plus, I hate Apple.

But, have .25.

Darilian
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That poster is ridiculously disingenuous.

First, 220 is the Chinese national average of all people, 18 is the amount of Foxconn employees that committed suicide at work. That's apples to oranges.

Then, for some reason, we move to workplace fatalities at Foxconn as compared to every U.S. industry, including far more dangerous tasks such as commercial fishing, law enforcement and rescue, and construction. Now we're at apples to silverware.

Then we're comparing average Foxconn salary in a high tech production job to the average Chinese salary of all industries. Apples to beagles.

That poster is pathetic.
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Proud Father and Diabetic Underachiever
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Screw the Chinese workers. When Apple employs, as menial overworked lackeys, all the destitute, homeless, borderline-sane human overflow that litters the highways and byways of this great nation--only then will I consider upgrading my iPhone 3GS. But mostly because I pretty exclusively use my iPad nowadays.
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Lynette
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The NY Times did a mostly "Pro-Apple" piece:

How the U.S. Lost Out on iPhone Work

Which was fascinating and yet it actually made me really PISSED at APPLE. Pissed enough that I don't know how I feel about supporting them anymore.


Quote:


Apple executives say that going overseas, at this point, is their only option. One former executive described how the company relied upon a Chinese factory to revamp iPhone manufacturing just weeks before the device was due on shelves. Apple had redesigned the iPhone’s screen at the last minute, forcing an assembly line overhaul. New screens began arriving at the plant near midnight.

A foreman immediately roused 8,000 workers inside the company’s dormitories, according to the executive. Each employee was given a biscuit and a cup of tea, guided to a workstation and within half an hour started a 12-hour shift fitting glass screens into beveled frames. Within 96 hours, the plant was producing over 10,000 iPhones a day.

“The speed and flexibility is breathtaking,” the executive said. “There’s no American plant that can match that.”


My immediate reaction to this is "YEAH because we had a civil war to outlaw SLAVERY!!"

That it is economic rather than formal legal slavery that drives things in China doesn't make me feel any less appalled.

The old plantation owners used to point out that most of them fed their slaves and gave them better health care than poor northern factory working immigrants ate and were cared for. To me that just means BOTH systems needed to be revamped. Which eventually THIS COUNTRY DID.

So pointing out that being taken advantage of in China by US industries is a better life than that of the average Chinese citizen only highlights how far CHINA needs to come. IT DOESN'T make APPLE'S decision to shamelessly use these people and even brag about it ok.

Going outside this country to make your products JUST to avoid living under the new better system guidelines which provide fair treatment to workers is wrong.
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  • Last edited Thu Feb 2, 2012 1:22 am (Total Number of Edits: 2)
  • Posted Thu Feb 2, 2012 1:18 am
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post-Essen syndrom
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I bought an iPhone last month although I "hate" Apple ... because they are the least bad cell phone company when it comes to blood minerals from Congo-Kinshasa (according to Greenpeace).

I do feel a little bit stupid when Foxconn is discussed.

But if campaigns like this are successful, I suppose that could lead to improvements in the Apple factories, which could spread to other factories...
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Eric Mowrer
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Why focus on Apple as opposed to the HUNDREDS and THOUSANDS of other US companies that also manufacture in China for the exact same reasons and have been for quite some time?

I don't get it.

If you want to get pissed, fine get pissed. Just please acknowledge that this problem has zip to do with Apple. The US has been hemorrhaging manufacturing jobs for decades.

Also, good luck getting them back without one of the following happening (or similar):

1) Cut wages and benefits.
2) Pay double for manufactured goods.
3) Ban imports to the US.
4) Wait 50-150 years for the standard of living in China and everywhere else to match that of the US.

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午餐先生
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Shushnik wrote:
That poster is ridiculously disingenuous.

First, 220 is the Chinese national average of all people, 18 is the amount of Foxconn employees that committed suicide at work. That's apples to oranges.

Then, for some reason, we move to workplace fatalities at Foxconn as compared to every U.S. industry, including far more dangerous tasks such as commercial fishing, law enforcement and rescue, and construction. Now we're at apples to silverware.

Then we're comparing average Foxconn salary in a high tech production job to the average Chinese salary of all industries. Apples to beagles.

That poster is pathetic.

The reason they quote per million workers is that Foxconn employs nearly one million people by itself.

So the comparison is per any million workers anywhere compared to the workers employed at Foxconn.

If it were taking all Chinese workers into account, the results would be vastly different, obviously. The point it is trying to make is that Foxconn workers are better off than the general Chinese population of workers.

I don't agree with the obvious bias either. It also isn't a very clear comparison.
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Jorge Montero
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An ethical smartphone is one that is not tied to any carrier, and that allows you to run any software you want on it. Walled garden my butt.
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Ken
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If you're going to boycott/petition Apple, why not LG? Samsung? Sony? Intel? Any other company that places plants in, contracts with, or buys parts from a manufacturing facility in China or another foreign nation with ample cheap labor?

I mean, yeah, it's horrid that working conditions there don't match the protections we have here, but let's be real - targeting Apple is excluding the vast majority of manufactured goods companies that are out there.

And while this all sucks from our perspective, is it worth considering that the jobs we're moaning about represent greater opportunity and prosperity than many of the workers would have had otherwise in China, India, or wherever? And that these workers are getting more and more interested in their own well-being and government?

Unless we're just going to stop buying anything manufactured in a third-world or industrializing nation, these stories will never, ever go away. And no individual company can really do much to impact this on a scale we'd be happy with (and could easily go out of business if they do so).

If you want real social justice, then we need to ban imports from any nation that doesn't meet minimum worker protections/wage expectations/benefits/whatever standard you like. Otherwise, it will be trivial to find examples like this. Unless we're willing to pony up the cash on a systemic basis to make them all go away, railing against one company won't really be all the effective at doing anything more than making us feel good. Particularly when the standard of living that many of the workers you're talking about exceeds the one that they'd have without the job.

I'm all for social justice, but we've consistently proven that we're not really interested in that if it means spending 25% more for our televisions. At least, not interested enough to pay more so that our notions of proper treatment are enforced to our satisfaction on a consistent basis.
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  • Last edited Thu Feb 2, 2012 2:08 am (Total Number of Edits: 1)
  • Posted Thu Feb 2, 2012 2:07 am
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Cool User
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For everyone asking "why target Apple", the petition explains it: Apple is the biggest. Getting them to change their requirements for suppliers would change the paradigm.
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mister lunch wrote:
Shushnik wrote:
That poster is ridiculously disingenuous.

First, 220 is the Chinese national average of all people, 18 is the amount of Foxconn employees that committed suicide at work. That's apples to oranges.

Then, for some reason, we move to workplace fatalities at Foxconn as compared to every U.S. industry, including far more dangerous tasks such as commercial fishing, law enforcement and rescue, and construction. Now we're at apples to silverware.

Then we're comparing average Foxconn salary in a high tech production job to the average Chinese salary of all industries. Apples to beagles.

That poster is pathetic.

The reason they quote per million workers is that Foxconn employs nearly one million people by itself.

So the comparison is per any million workers anywhere compared to the workers employed at Foxconn.

If it were taking all Chinese workers into account, the results would be vastly different, obviously. The point it is trying to make is that Foxconn workers are better off than the general Chinese population of workers.

I don't agree with the obvious bias either. It also isn't a very clear comparison.


You miss the point. I'm not pointing out the "per million" status as being an issue. I'm pointing out that they're comparing total Chinese suicides at ALL TIMES to amount of suicides AT THEIR BUILDINGS. Apples-to-oranges. The stats are not equal.
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午餐先生
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cool username wrote:
For everyone asking "why target Apple", the petition explains it: Apple is the biggest. Getting them to change their requirements for suppliers would change the paradigm.

Well put. If the most popular gadget maker can make a difference to affect change, then others will need to follow suit.

Especially given Dell and Acer and others are huge customers of Foxconn.
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Ken
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cool username wrote:
For everyone asking "why target Apple", the petition explains it: Apple is the biggest. Getting them to change their requirements for suppliers would change the paradigm.


Apple's not the biggest. They ship way less product based on count than Cisco, HP, or Samsung. They're just the most visible.

And that's why "targeting" Apple is dumb. If we're gonna walk the walk then we should be prepared to pass laws and pay more for stuff.
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Shushnik wrote:
You miss the point. I'm not pointing out the "per million" status as being an issue. I'm pointing out that they're comparing total Chinese suicides at ALL TIMES to amount of suicides AT THEIR BUILDINGS

That's where they live.
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perfalbion wrote:
cool username wrote:
For everyone asking "why target Apple", the petition explains it: Apple is the biggest. Getting them to change their requirements for suppliers would change the paradigm.


Apple's not the biggest.

Oh, you know why. It's because they make insanely more money than any one else. They just had their biggest quarter ever, so people have to start knocking on them.
 
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jmilum wrote:
They just had their biggest quarter ever, so people have to start knocking on them.


I wouldn't be surprised if all this leads back to a cartel led by Jim Kramer trying to move Apple's share price down a nickel so that everybody in the cartel can afford to donate something to some charity or another.
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J
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You might be on to something. It went down by 0.29 points today.

Disclaimer: I own Apple stock.
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Ken
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jmilum wrote:
perfalbion wrote:
cool username wrote:
For everyone asking "why target Apple", the petition explains it: Apple is the biggest. Getting them to change their requirements for suppliers would change the paradigm.


Apple's not the biggest.

Oh, you know why. It's because they make insanely more money than any one else. They just had their biggest quarter ever, so people have to start knocking on them.


I do know why. I'm just tired of "feel good" solutions to some type of industrialized world guilt about how unfair conditions can be elsewhere.

I'll be impressed when this type of effort goes in to changes/laws that stand a chance of inducing systemic changes rather than PR campaigns with about zero real impact on the problem. Since that means paying more for stuff, I expect public support to evaporate as soon as its proposed.
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KNOWN GOOD
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jmilum wrote:
Shushnik wrote:
You miss the point. I'm not pointing out the "per million" status as being an issue. I'm pointing out that they're comparing total Chinese suicides at ALL TIMES to amount of suicides AT THEIR BUILDINGS

That's where they live.


I can find no information that states that their entire 800,000 person workforce lives in dormitories, but I'll let that go on reasonable doubt.

It's still comparing the entire Chinese population rate to the Foxconn rate, regardless of vastly different suicide rates among age groups. No Foxconn suicide attempt in 2010 was by a worker over 25. I'm willing to wager good money that the reason for that is their workforce is nearly universally below 30, a group with a far lower suicide rate than the entire population of all ages. The world health organization, ten years ago, documented at as approximately 7 times lower. But 18 vs 31 isn't very impressive, so let's manipulate the numbers by throwing in the rates of suicide in the elderly.

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  • Last edited Thu Feb 2, 2012 3:33 am (Total Number of Edits: 1)
  • Posted Thu Feb 2, 2012 3:30 am
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Cool User
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Shushnik wrote:
Apples to beagles.


Love it! That should be a microbadge ...RSP:comparing apples to beagles.
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Ken
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Shushnik wrote:
I can find no information that states that their entire 800,000 person workforce lives in dormitories, but I'll let that go on reasonable doubt.


I'd wager money that a huge majority of them do. That's really the norm for China, particularly when you're discussing low-skill manufacturing jobs like these where the employee pool is often largely migrant workers from other areas of China. The ones that aren't are probably the managerial, engineering, technical, or similarly high-skill workers.

Regardless of whether the poster is BS or not (and I'd certainly argue it's an ineffective answer to the issues), the reality is that the workers that you're discussing have probably significantly improved their standard of living compared to the options that they have in China. The workers in these plants generally earn more money, have better access to services, often have better shelter, etc.

Which is why comparisons among nations is stupid. It was dumb of politicians to argue that the poor in the US are better off than the poor in India or Ethiopia (well, duh!). It's similarly dumb to take our standards of employment and apply them to a developing economy (which China still is in many, many ways). Should we pressure them to improve conditions? Sure - it'll make us feel better. Will targeting Apple make a difference? Not a chance. When will change come? When their people and government make it happen.

If you want to argue about the benefits of "Fair Trade" rather than "Free Trade" policies with the associated tariffs, taxes, boycotts, etc. then I'm all ears. That might get some attention internationally (though I think it more likely that it'll make lots of nations happy that we've decided to make ourselves even less competitive).
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The real problem with the infographic is that it compares absolutes to averages and the sample size is way too small from Foxconn. We really need to know what happened in each of those 18 cases of suicide. I've read that the turnover rate is 4% monthly, why didn't those guys just quit? Maybe the 70 psychiatrists they have on staff could tell us? Perhaps it's because they knew that their life was better than it could be anywhere else in China, but it still sucked...
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  • Last edited Thu Feb 2, 2012 4:05 am (Total Number of Edits: 2)
  • Posted Thu Feb 2, 2012 4:04 am
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Lynette
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perfalbion wrote:
If you're going to boycott/petition Apple, why not LG? Samsung? Sony? Intel? Any other company that places plants in, contracts with, or buys parts from a manufacturing facility in China or another foreign nation with ample cheap labor?



Because APPLE can afford it, the profits they are making are excessive AND because they originally claimed to be a "better" company.

But ESPECIALLY because the people profiting off of this exploiting of others are few in number. Much like industrial barons of old, a very few people are getting very very VERY rich, exploiting the poor.

We as a society don't think this is honorable or desirable. Just because the person being used isn't Joe next door doesn't mean we shouldn't care.

Not to mention, this kind of thing is helping to jeopardize our own middle class.

Quote:


Apple has become one of the best-known, most admired and most imitated companies on earth, in part through an unrelenting mastery of global operations. Last year, it earned over $400,000 in profit per employee, more than Goldman Sachs, Exxon Mobil or Google.

...


It is hard to estimate how much more it would cost to build iPhones in the United States. However, various academics and manufacturing analysts estimate that because labor is such a small part of technology manufacturing, paying American wages would add up to $65 to each iPhone’s expense. Since Apple’s profits are often hundreds of dollars per phone, building domestically, in theory, would still give the company a healthy reward.


....


Some of that wealth has gone to shareholders. Apple is among the most widely held stocks, and the rising share price has benefited millions of individual investors, 401(k)’s and pension plans. The bounty has also enriched Apple workers. Last fiscal year, in addition to their salaries, Apple’s employees and directors received stock worth $2 billion and exercised or vested stock and options worth an added $1.4 billion.

The biggest rewards, however, have often gone to Apple’s top employees. Mr. Cook, Apple’s chief, last year received stock grants — which vest over a 10-year period — that, at today’s share price, would be worth $427 million, and his salary was raised to $1.4 million. In 2010, Mr. Cook’s compensation package was valued at $59 million, according to Apple’s security filings.



This is why I favor huge additional TAXES to be applied to products being manufactured via outsourcing. Not enough to make them prohibitive, but enough to make it at least comparable to the costs of building things locally.
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  • Last edited Thu Feb 2, 2012 4:07 am (Total Number of Edits: 1)
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