Brian
United States
Virginia
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mister lunch wrote: cool username wrote: For everyone asking "why target Apple", the petition explains it: Apple is the biggest. Getting them to change their requirements for suppliers would change the paradigm. Well put. If the most popular gadget maker can make a difference to affect change, then others will need to follow suit. Especially given Dell and Acer and others are huge customers of Foxconn.
I dont know. Most likely their closest competitor will capitalize on the foolish decision Apple is making and therefore be the next biggest.
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J
United States
San Diego
California
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Meerkat wrote: Because APPLE can afford it, the profits they are making are excessive
Should they think, wait! We've made too much money. We need to stop making so much money, it's too damn exessive. let's give it away, that's what the stock holders want and what the board will support. It's not why I buy stock in Apple.
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Brian
United States
Virginia
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Meerkat wrote: perfalbion wrote: If you're going to boycott/petition Apple, why not LG? Samsung? Sony? Intel? Any other company that places plants in, contracts with, or buys parts from a manufacturing facility in China or another foreign nation with ample cheap labor? Because APPLE can afford it, the profits they are making are excessive AND because they originally claimed to be a "better" company. But ESPECIALLY because the people profiting off of this exploiting of others are few in number. Much like industrial barons of old, a very few people are getting very very VERY rich, exploiting the poor. We as a society don't think this is honorable or desirable. Just because the person being used isn't Joe next door doesn't mean we shouldn't care. Not to mention, this kind of thing is helping to jeopardize our own middle class. Quote:
Apple has become one of the best-known, most admired and most imitated companies on earth, in part through an unrelenting mastery of global operations. Last year, it earned over $400,000 in profit per employee, more than Goldman Sachs, Exxon Mobil or Google.
...
It is hard to estimate how much more it would cost to build iPhones in the United States. However, various academics and manufacturing analysts estimate that because labor is such a small part of technology manufacturing, paying American wages would add up to $65 to each iPhone’s expense. Since Apple’s profits are often hundreds of dollars per phone, building domestically, in theory, would still give the company a healthy reward.
....
Some of that wealth has gone to shareholders. Apple is among the most widely held stocks, and the rising share price has benefited millions of individual investors, 401(k)’s and pension plans. The bounty has also enriched Apple workers. Last fiscal year, in addition to their salaries, Apple’s employees and directors received stock worth $2 billion and exercised or vested stock and options worth an added $1.4 billion.
The biggest rewards, however, have often gone to Apple’s top employees. Mr. Cook, Apple’s chief, last year received stock grants — which vest over a 10-year period — that, at today’s share price, would be worth $427 million, and his salary was raised to $1.4 million. In 2010, Mr. Cook’s compensation package was valued at $59 million, according to Apple’s security filings. This is why I favor huge additional TAXES to be applied to products being manufactured via outsourcing. Not enough to make them prohibitive, but enough to make it at least comparable to the costs of building things locally.
The only problem is: That as much as people may feel bad and complain about the working conditions of people working overseas and the outsourcing of manufacturing jobs, they'd complain a ton more if their favorite doo-wicky of the month all of a sudden went up in price. Then Apple would be gouging its loyal customers! How dare they!? See for example, Netflix.
Apple's goal is not just to make a profit, but its to continually increase its profits more than last quarter, last year, or even last week. It's not that Apple couldn't absorb the costs, it's that they wouldn't. Not when the same people complaining about the poor working conditions of some flavor of the month phone are the same people lining up outside on opening day to buy one.
Also, I have a hard time swallowing that $65 dollar number. You have to look at a lot more than just wages.
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Ken
United States
Crystal Lake
Illinois
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Meerkat wrote: Because APPLE can afford it, the profits they are making are excessive AND because they originally claimed to be a "better" company.
So you're pissed that you bought their PR? Why'd you believe that? They're a company and exist to generate profits for their shareholders.
Quote: We as a society don't think this is honorable or desirable. Just because the person being used isn't Joe next door doesn't mean we shouldn't care.
No offense, but I don't see us passing Fair Trade legislation or taking steps to preserve our own jobs a la many European or developed Asian nations. So I don't believe this for a minute. We're fine with outrage until it means that the 27" television we want for our third room will cost $500 instead of $300. Or that the guy next door is out of a job because his job was shipped overseas.
If we cared, we'd be way, way more focused on the impacts right here, let alone those on workers in another country and we'd eat the loss of international competitiveness that would stem from such policies.
Sorry, not buying that we care. We aren't demonstrating that here at home, let alone abroad.
Not to mention, this kind of thing is helping to jeopardize our own middle class.
Quote: Since Apple’s profits are often hundreds of dollars per phone, building domestically, in theory, would still give the company a healthy reward.
You do realize that much of this profit has nothing to do with retail price, right? That it's actually payments to Apple from cellular carriers to offer the phone and that even if the $65 figure were accurate (and it has been questioned with some credibility in numerous articles) it likely would not hurt Apple's profits one bit?
Quote: This is why I favor huge additional TAXES to be applied to products being manufactured via outsourcing. Not enough to make them prohibitive, but enough to make it at least comparable to the costs of building things locally.
If you aren't willing to make them prohibitive, you're not willing to affect change. It really is that simple because the differential in costs is massive. Even if you use your $65/phone figure, that represents something like a 35% increase in costs to Apple for the most popular iPhone model. So your taxation would have to be in that range (which most would consider prohibitive) to even stand a chance of putting a dent in the problem.
This is like the environmentalists who don't advocate a massive increase in gas taxes to me. If you want to change driving habits and get people to act differently, you have to make them feel the cost of their activity and choices. But because a $2/gallon tax is too unpopular we won't go there and therefore won't get change.
Don't rail at Apple. They're just the "flavor of the month." At least they're a successful company. Why shouldn't the anger be directed at a company like HP where they use the same type of manufacturing, pay the same ridiculous executive compensation, and yet manage to fail pretty miserably despite massive strategic advantages? They should deserve even more ire since they're doing the same stuff but failing to derive any economic benefit from it.
If you're for change, great. But let's stop nibbling around the edges and discuss the real issues. Because petitions like this a BS, feel-good public relations stunts. Real change will come when we pass laws or the Chinese people insist upon it. Until then, this is a bunch of 1st world people assuaging some guilt.
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J
United States
San Diego
California
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If we really want to inact change in China, revoke Most favored nation status. We have embargoes with Cuba because of human rights violations and it being a Communist nation, why not China? Oh right, it's WAY bigger. LOTS more trade...
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Not Just Wrong- SPECTACULARLY WRONG.
Spain
Texas
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People don't understand the value of things.
I see it all the time at my FLGS. They sell wooden chess sets there- some nice, some ok, some VERY nice. But most of them are made in either India or China, and they're STILL expensive-ish for nice ones; $50+ for a basic set, upwards of $100-300+ for nice sets. And that doesn't include a board.
But yet, BUT YET- people come in all the time, wanting 'nice set', but they don't want to spend more than $20 for it. Oh, and they want it made in America.
Just ain't going to happen. But yet people are miffed when they can't get what they perceive of as 'nice' for almost nothing. I see it at furniture stores also- A NICE sofa is going to cost a $1000 or more. But people don't want to pay that; they want crappy Ikea garbage that falls apart after a couple of years, is totally disposable, but will only cost a couple of hundred bucks. They don't want to spend the money on furniture, quality furniture, that will LAST and is really well made. They might SAY they do, but they don't.
The same is going to be true for iPhones. People might SAY they want an 'ethical' iPhone, but if that meant a 50% increase in the cost of the phone, they'd balk and start buying Androids.
It's just like my favorite writer, David Gerrold put it once:
Good. Fast. Cheap.
You can choose two.
Darilian
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J
United States
San Diego
California
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Darilian wrote: The same is going to be true for iPhones. People might SAY they want an 'ethical' iPhone, but if that meant a 50% increase in the cost of the phone, they'd balk and start buying Androids.
Hopefully they would want an ethical Android as well, probably made by Samsung at the same Foxconn factory at the same +50%
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Not Just Wrong- SPECTACULARLY WRONG.
Spain
Texas
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jmilum wrote: Darilian wrote: The same is going to be true for iPhones. People might SAY they want an 'ethical' iPhone, but if that meant a 50% increase in the cost of the phone, they'd balk and start buying Androids. Hopefully they would want an ethical Android as well, probably made by Samsung at the same Foxconn factory at the same +50%
Naw, they'd just go for the one with the better advertising and more porn (I mean, apps. APPS!).
Darilian
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Clay
United States
Alabama
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Darilian wrote: People don't understand the value of things.
I see it all the time at my FLGS. They sell wooden chess sets there- some nice, some ok, some VERY nice. But most of them are made in either India or China, and they're STILL expensive-ish for nice ones; $50+ for a basic set, upwards of $100-300+ for nice sets. And that doesn't include a board.
But yet, BUT YET- people come in all the time, wanting 'nice set', but they don't want to spend more than $20 for it. Oh, and they want it made in America.
Just ain't going to happen. But yet people are miffed when they can't get what they perceive of as 'nice' for almost nothing. I see it at furniture stores also- A NICE sofa is going to cost a $1000 or more. But people don't want to pay that; they want crappy Ikea garbage that falls apart after a couple of years, is totally disposable, but will only cost a couple of hundred bucks. They don't want to spend the money on furniture, quality furniture, that will LAST and is really well made. They might SAY they do, but they don't.
The same is going to be true for iPhones. People might SAY they want an 'ethical' iPhone, but if that meant a 50% increase in the cost of the phone, they'd balk and start buying Androids.
It's just like my favorite writer, David Gerrold put it once:
Good. Fast. Cheap.
You can choose two.
Darilian
Good and cheap sounds pretty alright, actually.
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Not Just Wrong- SPECTACULARLY WRONG.
Spain
Texas
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The Message wrote: Darilian wrote: People don't understand the value of things.
I see it all the time at my FLGS. They sell wooden chess sets there- some nice, some ok, some VERY nice. But most of them are made in either India or China, and they're STILL expensive-ish for nice ones; $50+ for a basic set, upwards of $100-300+ for nice sets. And that doesn't include a board.
But yet, BUT YET- people come in all the time, wanting 'nice set', but they don't want to spend more than $20 for it. Oh, and they want it made in America.
Just ain't going to happen. But yet people are miffed when they can't get what they perceive of as 'nice' for almost nothing. I see it at furniture stores also- A NICE sofa is going to cost a $1000 or more. But people don't want to pay that; they want crappy Ikea garbage that falls apart after a couple of years, is totally disposable, but will only cost a couple of hundred bucks. They don't want to spend the money on furniture, quality furniture, that will LAST and is really well made. They might SAY they do, but they don't.
The same is going to be true for iPhones. People might SAY they want an 'ethical' iPhone, but if that meant a 50% increase in the cost of the phone, they'd balk and start buying Androids.
It's just like my favorite writer, David Gerrold put it once:
Good. Fast. Cheap.
You can choose two.
Darilian Good and cheap sounds pretty alright, actually.
Sure thing! We'll get that to you in 6 months.
See ya then! 
Darilian
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Clay
United States
Alabama
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Darilian wrote: The Message wrote: Darilian wrote: People don't understand the value of things.
I see it all the time at my FLGS. They sell wooden chess sets there- some nice, some ok, some VERY nice. But most of them are made in either India or China, and they're STILL expensive-ish for nice ones; $50+ for a basic set, upwards of $100-300+ for nice sets. And that doesn't include a board.
But yet, BUT YET- people come in all the time, wanting 'nice set', but they don't want to spend more than $20 for it. Oh, and they want it made in America.
Just ain't going to happen. But yet people are miffed when they can't get what they perceive of as 'nice' for almost nothing. I see it at furniture stores also- A NICE sofa is going to cost a $1000 or more. But people don't want to pay that; they want crappy Ikea garbage that falls apart after a couple of years, is totally disposable, but will only cost a couple of hundred bucks. They don't want to spend the money on furniture, quality furniture, that will LAST and is really well made. They might SAY they do, but they don't.
The same is going to be true for iPhones. People might SAY they want an 'ethical' iPhone, but if that meant a 50% increase in the cost of the phone, they'd balk and start buying Androids.
It's just like my favorite writer, David Gerrold put it once:
Good. Fast. Cheap.
You can choose two.
Darilian Good and cheap sounds pretty alright, actually. Sure thing! We'll get that to you in 6 months. See ya then! :) Darilian
January slipped by without my notice, I can wait. What am I getting?
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post-Essen syndrom
Sweden
Stockholm
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perfalbion wrote: If you're going to boycott/petition Apple, why not LG? Samsung? Sony? Intel? LG is one of the worst. We used to translate for them, but told them last time that they need to get at least "average bad" for our cooperation to work... haven't heard from them since 
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John W
United States
Sacramento
California
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perfalbion wrote: They're a company and exist to generate profits for their shareholders. Good lord, imagine the crimes corporations could commit under that blanket rationalization.
Quote: We're fine with outrage until it means that the 27" television we want for our third room will cost $500 instead of $300. Or that the guy next door is out of a job because his job was shipped overseas. Wait, you're actually arguing AGAINST Fair Trade legislation based on the LOSS of jobs?
Sorry, but that ship has already sailed.
Americans have already lost the jobs - you can't have it both ways.
Quote: ... even if the $65 figure were accurate ...it likely would not hurt Apple's profits one bit? Again, you can't have it both ways.
If the majority of Apple's profits are through licensing contracts with carriers, than it sounds like they could easily absorb that $65 cost per device for the outrageously positive goodwill, tax breaks, etc that they would generate by using American labor.
Quote: Until then, this is a bunch of 1st world people assuaging some guilt. Well, it sounds like your assuaging some guilt in your posts, because it sounds like you are rabidly rationalizing corporate behavior and advocating against Fair Trade policies or any efforts to stem this loss of American jobs and exploitation of workers overseas.
If I had to guess, since you seem quite knowledgeable of the issues, that you are just fed up with the lack of will the American government and consumers have shown to make ANY headway in these areas.
If so, I can understand being frustrated about that - but I don't agree that you should be arguing against increasing awareness of foreign worker exploitation and discussing bringing manufacturing back to America possibly through government policy.
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Ken
United States
Crystal Lake
Illinois
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reapersaurus wrote: Good lord, imagine the crimes corporations could commit under that blanket rationalization.
It's not a rationalization. It's a statement of fact. If you want to enforce ethical/moral behavior for human constructs, then the laws that humans construct need to follow must do so. If our history should teach us anything, it's that we aren't so good at ethical behavior where laws to enforce it don't exist (the robber barons? Bhopal? Various pesticides used in third world nations?).
Quote: Sorry, but that ship has already sailed.
Americans have already lost the jobs - you can't have it both ways.
Ummmm. You might respond to the content of the post. We've lost the jobs because of the desire to get cheaper stuff, increase profits, etc. We didn't (and honestly don't) appear to care much about protecting jobs or the environment or workers in other countries if we aren't prepared to actually pay for it.
Quote: Again, you can't have it both ways.
If the majority of Apple's profits are through licensing contracts with carriers, than it sounds like they could easily absorb that $65 cost per device for the outrageously positive goodwill, tax breaks, etc that they would generate by using American labor.
Except that the tax breaks don't really exist (at least, not to the tune of 35%). If they did, there would be a WTO action pending for an illegal subsidy. And the goodwill issue is mostly just PR - very few people are going to change their purchase decision as a result of the petition. I'll even bet that many of those that sign the petition still buy Apple products.
You're arguing ethereal concepts when what really matters in the marketplace is money. To us as consumers as well as the corporations we consume from.
Quote: Well, it sounds like your assuaging some guilt in your posts, because it sounds like you are rabidly rationalizing corporate behavior and advocating against Fair Trade policies or any efforts to stem this loss of American jobs and exploitation of workers overseas.
It's a nice attempt to turn the argument around, but it would help if you actually didn't attempt to assign me positions. I haven't said I oppose Fair Trade deals. Nor do I think that corporations should be allowed to exploit foreign workers to lower costs. What I said was targeting a single company is dumb because it won't actually do anything. If you really want the problem fixed, then talk about actually passing Fair Trade legislation, embargoes on products produced at facilities that don't meet minimum standards, etc. Then you might both accomplish something (we're the largest single consumer of stuff so that's an impact). And you'd have a level playing field. Why should Apple be held to a standard that isn't applied to anyone else?
Quote: If I had to guess, since you seem quite knowledgeable of the issues, that you are just fed up with the lack of will the American government and consumers have shown to make ANY headway in these areas.
If so, I can understand being frustrated about that - but I don't agree that you should be arguing against increasing awareness of foreign worker exploitation and discussing bringing manufacturing back to America possibly through government policy.
Then discuss government policy. And take some action to make it happen. Otherwise, this is really just feel-good nothingness.
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Posted Thu Feb 2, 2012 4:18 am
