A few generations ago, people weren’t stopping to contemplate whether having a child would make them happy. Having children was simply what you did. And we are lucky, today, to have choices about these matters. But the abundance of choices—whether to have kids, when, how many—may be one of the reasons parents are less happy.
That was at least partly the conclusion of psychologists W. Keith Campbell and Jean Twenge, who, in 2003, did a meta-analysis of 97 children-and-marital-satisfaction studies stretching back to the seventies. Not only did they find that couples’ overall marital satisfaction went down if they had kids; they found that every successive generation was more put out by having them than the last—our current one most of all. Even more surprisingly, they found that parents’ dissatisfaction only grew the more money they had, even though they had the purchasing power to buy more child care. “And my hypothesis about why this is, in both cases, is the same,” says Twenge. “They become parents later in life. There’s a loss of freedom, a loss of autonomy. It’s totally different from going from your parents’ house to immediately having a baby. Now you know what you’re giving up.” (Or, as a fellow psychologist told Gilbert when he finally got around to having a child: “They’re a huge source of joy, but they turn every other source of joy to shit.”)
NY wrote:
This is the brutal reality about children—they’re such powerful stressors that small perforations in relationships can turn into deep fault lines. “And my wife became more demanding,” he continues. “ ‘You don’t do this, you don’t do that.’ There was this idea we had about how things were supposed to be: The family should be dot dot dot, the man should be dot dot dot the woman should be dot dot dot.”
This is another brutal reality about children: They expose the gulf between our fantasies about family and its spikier realities.
“They’re a huge source of joy, but they turn every other source of joy to shit.”
Exactly, while I certainly believe children bring joy to their parents, they ensure the destruction of their parent's individuality.
Every aspect of personal wants/needs/desires must be put on hold for the 18 years it takes to raise a child.
I am certainly glad that I live in today's culture. When anyone asks me when the husband and kids are coming I can tell them to get stuffed. Or drone on and on about population zero, the effects of overpopulation on the climate, what great disasters will be waiting for the next generation, and the current studies showing the negative effects of marriage on women's mental health. That usually shuts them up!
“They’re a huge source of joy, but they turn every other source of joy to shit.”
Exactly, while I certainly believe children bring joy to their parents, they ensure the destruction of their parent's individuality.
Every aspect of personal wants/needs/desires must be put on hold for the 18 years it takes to raise a child.
I am certainly glad that I live in today's culture. When anyone asks me when the husband and kids are coming I can tell them to get stuffed. Or drone on and on about population zero, the effects of overpopulation on the climate, what great disasters will be waiting for the next generation, and the current studies showing the negative effects of marriage on women's mental health. That usually shuts them up!
Wow. I'm guessing you've either never been a parent or had some tough kids. My two sons enhanced our lives and were never a burden that we weren't ready to solve.
All you have to do is pay attention to their needs and make sure they are paying attention to yours.
“They’re a huge source of joy, but they turn every other source of joy to shit.”
Exactly, while I certainly believe children bring joy to their parents, they ensure the destruction of their parent's individuality.
Every aspect of personal wants/needs/desires must be put on hold for the 18 years it takes to raise a child.
I am certainly glad that I live in today's culture. When anyone asks me when the husband and kids are coming I can tell them to get stuffed. Or drone on and on about population zero, the effects of overpopulation on the climate, what great disasters will be waiting for the next generation, and the current studies showing the negative effects of marriage on women's mental health. That usually shuts them up!
Wow. I'm guessing you've either never been a parent or had some tough kids. My two sons enhanced our lives and were never a burden that we weren't ready to solve.
All you have to do is pay attention to their needs and make sure they are paying attention to yours.
I feel for you.
Why would you feel for me? I made a very conscious decision not to have kids.
I have been able to travel the whole world, have an amazing partner, a social life that is pretty much 24-7, an education, and a job in my dream field, and the knowledge that I have not added to the environmental stress of the world.
To feel bad for me is akin to saying that your choices are better than mine and you pity me. But, as you can see, my choices were perfect for me. There is no reason to be condescending just because I choose to live a different life than you. It is as equally fulfilling!
South Africa Hopelessly Surrounded Isandlwana, Zululand
Quote:
I am certainly glad that I live in today's culture. When anyone asks me when the husband and kids are coming I can tell them to get stuffed. Or drone on and on about population zero, the effects of overpopulation on the climate, what great disasters will be waiting for the next generation, and the current studies showing the negative effects of marriage on women's mental health. That usually shuts them up!
“They’re a huge source of joy, but they turn every other source of joy to shit.”
Exactly, while I certainly believe children bring joy to their parents, they ensure the destruction of their parent's individuality.
Every aspect of personal wants/needs/desires must be put on hold for the 18 years it takes to raise a child.
I am certainly glad that I live in today's culture. When anyone asks me when the husband and kids are coming I can tell them to get stuffed. Or drone on and on about population zero, the effects of overpopulation on the climate, what great disasters will be waiting for the next generation, and the current studies showing the negative effects of marriage on women's mental health. That usually shuts them up!
Wow. I'm guessing you've either never been a parent or had some tough kids. My two sons enhanced our lives and were never a burden that we weren't ready to solve.
All you have to do is pay attention to their needs and make sure they are paying attention to yours.
I feel for you.
Why would you feel for me? I made a very conscious decision not to have kids.
I have been able to travel the whole world, have an amazing partner, a social life that is pretty much 24-7, an education, and a job in my dream field, and the knowledge that I have not added to the environmental stress of the world.
To feel bad for me is akin to saying that your choices are better than mine and you pity me. But, as you can see, my choices were perfect for me. There is no reason to be condescending just because I choose to live a different life than you. It is as equally fulfilling!
Because saying children "ensure the destruction of their parents individuality" is not at all "akin to saying your choices are better than mine and you pity me." Only you're allowed to imply that somebody else could never possibly be truly happy with their life choices...
I am certainly glad that I live in today's culture. When anyone asks me when the husband and kids are coming I can tell them to get stuffed. Or drone on and on about population zero, the effects of overpopulation on the climate, what great disasters will be waiting for the next generation, and the current studies showing the negative effects of marriage on women's mental health. That usually shuts them up!
You must be great fun at parties.
Christ, I hate this kind of comment. It serves no purpose other than to belittle the poster. It totally fucks with our ability to have an honest and open forum here. For me it ranks second only to "tell us how you really feel".
The coolest best thing I have ever done in my life is being a father
Caleb, the best 6 month old little brother ever
alexiscarlough wrote:
Because saying children "ensure the destruction of their parents individuality" is not at all "akin to saying your choices are better than mine and you pity me." Only you're allowed to imply that somebody else could never possibly be truly happy with their life choices...
Exactly what I was going to say - so thanks for doing it for me.
You know, I didn't meet my wife until I was 35 years old. In all the years proceeding them, I traveled the world, worked about 20-25 different jobs, met fascinating people, and pretty much lived life with both of my hands around its throat. I was a pretty happy dude.
I have a 4 year old daughter and a 4 month old son. Nothing I experienced in the three and a half decades prior to bringing them into the world comes close to comparing to the joy that they give me. Maybe I did give up some of my individuality - I went from being a man and I turned into a father, the single coolest most rewarding vocation I have ever been given. I am part of a family that cooks together, plays together, reads together, and has a big giant group hug before everyone gives out a kiss, a "love you", and a "good night".
I lived this life:
Quote:
I have been able to travel the whole world, have an amazing partner, a social life that is pretty much 24-7, an education, and a job in my dream field
and it was fun, but I would give it all up to be a dad - but you see - I haven't! I travel! I have furthered my education! I have a close knit group of friends that I am in contact with on a daily basis, and I go to bed every night with my best one. My job challenges me every single day, and I manage an awesome group of people. All this and I get to be called "the greatest dad ever!" every single day.
So yeah, I do feel for people that don't want to have kids, mostly because I just don't understand the sentiment. Perhaps there is something really satisfying about having
Quote:
the knowledge that I have not added to the environmental stress of the world.
that I do not grasp, and maybe I will never grasp how great that feels, but I am pretty sure it doesn't come close to being a parent.
The coolest best thing I have ever done in my life is being a father
Caleb, the best 6 month old little brother ever
sisteray wrote:
zuludawn wrote:
Quote:
I am certainly glad that I live in today's culture. When anyone asks me when the husband and kids are coming I can tell them to get stuffed. Or drone on and on about population zero, the effects of overpopulation on the climate, what great disasters will be waiting for the next generation, and the current studies showing the negative effects of marriage on women's mental health. That usually shuts them up!
You must be great fun at parties.
Christ, I hate this kind of comment. It serves no purpose other than to belittle the poster. It totally fucks with our ability to have an honest and open forum here. For me it ranks second only to "tell us how you really feel".
Entertainment for those who don't think young & don't think old
I think people would be a lot more fulfilled with life, if they weren't worried about doing everything that makes them happy 24/7. Parenting is challenging, everything worth attaining usually is.
“They’re a huge source of joy, but they turn every other source of joy to shit.”
Exactly, while I certainly believe children bring joy to their parents, they ensure the destruction of their parent's individuality.
Every aspect of personal wants/needs/desires must be put on hold for the 18 years it takes to raise a child.
I am certainly glad that I live in today's culture. When anyone asks me when the husband and kids are coming I can tell them to get stuffed. Or drone on and on about population zero, the effects of overpopulation on the climate, what great disasters will be waiting for the next generation, and the current studies showing the negative effects of marriage on women's mental health. That usually shuts them up!
Wow. I'm guessing you've either never been a parent or had some tough kids. My two sons enhanced our lives and were never a burden that we weren't ready to solve.
All you have to do is pay attention to their needs and make sure they are paying attention to yours.
I feel for you.
Got to love the condescending sympathy. Last I checked, she's allowed to have her own perspective on this, regardless of what anecdotal bliss somebody else may be able to relate.
South Africa Hopelessly Surrounded Isandlwana, Zululand
sisteray wrote:
Christ, I hate this kind of comment. It serves no purpose other than to belittle the poster. It totally fucks with our ability to have an honest and open forum here. For me it ranks second only to "tell us how you really feel".
Really? It was intended as a joke, given that the person I replied to just stated that she told people to "get stuffed" and then "droned on" about various depressing things. Hence, "you must be great fun at parties." It was not intended to belittle the poster personally, nor her opinion on having children.
“They’re a huge source of joy, but they turn every other source of joy to shit.”
Exactly, while I certainly believe children bring joy to their parents, they ensure the destruction of their parent's individuality.
Every aspect of personal wants/needs/desires must be put on hold for the 18 years it takes to raise a child.
I am certainly glad that I live in today's culture. When anyone asks me when the husband and kids are coming I can tell them to get stuffed. Or drone on and on about population zero, the effects of overpopulation on the climate, what great disasters will be waiting for the next generation, and the current studies showing the negative effects of marriage on women's mental health. That usually shuts them up!
Wow. I'm guessing you've either never been a parent or had some tough kids. My two sons enhanced our lives and were never a burden that we weren't ready to solve.
All you have to do is pay attention to their needs and make sure they are paying attention to yours.
I feel for you.
Why would you feel for me? I made a very conscious decision not to have kids.
I have been able to travel the whole world, have an amazing partner, a social life that is pretty much 24-7, an education, and a job in my dream field, and the knowledge that I have not added to the environmental stress of the world.
To feel bad for me is akin to saying that your choices are better than mine and you pity me. But, as you can see, my choices were perfect for me. There is no reason to be condescending just because I choose to live a different life than you. It is as equally fulfilling!
Because saying children "ensure the destruction of their parents individuality" is not at all "akin to saying your choices are better than mine and you pity me." Only you're allowed to imply that somebody else could never possibly be truly happy with their life choices...
Not at all... To be a good parent you must put your needs behind your children. That does destroy individuality since a parent is no longer an individual, but a caregiver to others (at least the one's that do it right).
So, this comment in no way says that I pity parents, just a statement of fact.
In fact, I quite clearly stated that my life is equally as fulfilling, giving credit to those who choose to have children as making a viable life choice for themselves.
However, while I just made a statement of fact that I enjoy being childless (and some tongue in cheek comments denoted by my little devil face), I have been accused of being selfish, no fun, and my goals and dreams being worthless compared to having kids.
In every thread I congratulate new parents and laugh about the crazy kid stories you all post. Very rarely do us childless people get to brag about how we feel good with our choices. I see why now, too much unneccesary and frankly bewildering backlash.
I am certainly glad that I live in today's culture. When anyone asks me when the husband and kids are coming I can tell them to get stuffed. Or drone on and on about population zero, the effects of overpopulation on the climate, what great disasters will be waiting for the next generation, and the current studies showing the negative effects of marriage on women's mental health. That usually shuts them up!
You must be great fun at parties.
Christ, I hate this kind of comment. It serves no purpose other than to belittle the poster. It totally fucks with our ability to have an honest and open forum here. For me it ranks second only to "tell us how you really feel".
Looking at these stars suddenly dwarfed my own troubles and all the gravities of terrestrial life. I thought of their unfathomable distance, and the slow inevitable drift of their movements out of the unknown past into the unknown future. H.G. Wells
Humankind has not woven the web of life. We are but one thread within it. Whatever we do to the web, we do to ourselves. All things are bound together. All things connect. Chief Seattle
Whether or not to have children can be a conscious choice, but it is not necessarily one you can make.
Take me and my wife, we were using contraception and she got pregnant. Or my friends who have been spending thousands of dollars and many trips to specialists trying to get pregnant.
I think people would be a lot more fulfilled with life, if they weren't worried about doing everything that makes them happy 24/7. Parenting is challenging, everything worth attaining usually is.
Life isn't only about your next fix.
I call bullshit on this. People either have kids because they want them, they are indifferent to the hand that life has given them, or because they feel obligated to have them.
People would be a lot more fulfilled with life if they didn't have kids unless they and really wanted them. We'd also end up with happier kids.
I'm stoked to be a parent, it is awesome. But I didn't want kids until recently and I'm glad that circumstances didn't force or coerce me into having them before I was ready. I wouldn't wish kids on anyone. It is a big commitment and isn't worth it unless you are so selfish that you need to fulfill a limbic desire over all reason.
Having a child is exactly like getting your next fix. I'll be the first to tell anyone that I had a kid because I wanted one for myself. I wanted to discover what it was like to be a father. I did it because I like new experiences, and it would be fun to share my life with someone immutably. I also did it because my wife wanted all of these things and it makes her happy which in turn makes me happy. Perhaps, it was the most selfish thing that I've ever done in my life. I did it for ME, period.
Now that she is born and is becoming her own person, it is about us. But I'm not going to delude myself into thinking that the whole thing wasn't my idea, or that there was some grand cause to it. It was solely based on my happiness, fulfilling my desires and thinking that it would be fun (which it is).
“They’re a huge source of joy, but they turn every other source of joy to shit.”
Exactly, while I certainly believe children bring joy to their parents, they ensure the destruction of their parent's individuality.
Every aspect of personal wants/needs/desires must be put on hold for the 18 years it takes to raise a child.
I am certainly glad that I live in today's culture. When anyone asks me when the husband and kids are coming I can tell them to get stuffed. Or drone on and on about population zero, the effects of overpopulation on the climate, what great disasters will be waiting for the next generation, and the current studies showing the negative effects of marriage on women's mental health. That usually shuts them up!
Wow. I'm guessing you've either never been a parent or had some tough kids. My two sons enhanced our lives and were never a burden that we weren't ready to solve.
All you have to do is pay attention to their needs and make sure they are paying attention to yours.
I feel for you.
Why would you feel for me? I made a very conscious decision not to have kids.
I have been able to travel the whole world, have an amazing partner, a social life that is pretty much 24-7, an education, and a job in my dream field, and the knowledge that I have not added to the environmental stress of the world.
To feel bad for me is akin to saying that your choices are better than mine and you pity me. But, as you can see, my choices were perfect for me. There is no reason to be condescending just because I choose to live a different life than you. It is as equally fulfilling!
Because saying children "ensure the destruction of their parents individuality" is not at all "akin to saying your choices are better than mine and you pity me." Only you're allowed to imply that somebody else could never possibly be truly happy with their life choices...
Not at all... To be a good parent you must put your needs behind your children. That does destroy individuality since a parent is no longer an individual, but a caregiver to others (at least the one's that do it right).
So, this comment in no way says that I pity parents, just a statement of fact.
In fact, I quite clearly stated that my life is equally as fulfilling, giving credit to those who choose to have children as making a viable life choice for themselves.
However, while I just made a statement of fact that I enjoy being childless (and some tongue in cheek comments denoted by my little devil face), I have been accused of being selfish, no fun, and my goals and dreams being worthless compared to having kids.
In every thread I congratulate new parents and laugh about the crazy kid stories you all post. Very rarely do us childless people get to brag about how we feel good with our choices. I see why now, too much unneccesary and frankly bewildering backlash.
I'm out.
I know you're exaggerating some, but I think you may have a very skewed view (just as those who criticize your life style likely have an unusually skewed view).
I'm not sure I agree that it destroys your individuality. I have 2 boys, 5 and 7.5, so maybe I'm too close to it to realize the child carrying zombie I've become . While I'm a different person than before they were born, I can say with certainty that I retain a good deal of who I was and what was/is important to me. I have turned to carrying for two additional people that I didn't know before so, yes, it's likely some of my values have been redirected, but I wouldn't say that makes me less of an individual.
I continue to have an active social life (in some respects more so than before I had kids as I've met parents that I share a great deal with), I continue to take care of my own needs, including hobbies like board gaming, and film making. And I still get to travel with the benefit of being able to enjoy little kid stuff (kid museums and some of our local playgrounds are AWESOME) without looking like a creepy dude. I also tend to go to bed at a healthier hour.
Further, I try very hard to impress upon them the importance that what is important to me shouldn't necessarily be important to them (and vice versa, but they're a bit young to hear "you may like The Care Bears, but I hate them" so I mostly keep that to myself). I still like a lot of stuff (food, games, TV, movies, hobbies, etc. and that's just the fluff) that they don't and likewise for their interests.
Perhaps it's just semantics and you really mean it increases your responsibilities and obligations, to which I would agree. I'm not as foot loose and fancy free as I used to be.
I will, however, agree that you shouldn't feel guilty about not wanting kids. Parenthood isn't for everyone, and we certainly aren't at any risk of running out of people. So, rock on with your current life, especially if it makes you happy and doesn't happen to be hurting anyone.
KGS is the #1 web site for playing go over the internet. Visit now!
Yes, I really am that awesome.
MeryMer wrote:
Why would you feel for me? I made a very conscious decision not to have kids.
I have been able to travel the whole world, have an amazing partner, a social life that is pretty much 24-7, an education, and a job in my dream field, and the knowledge that I have not added to the environmental stress of the world.
I feel for you because all those things you list are things I had too, and once I had kids I realized how worthless they are compared to having children. You having chosen not to have children doesn't change it. It's like you met somebody who made a conscious choice to never see the sunshine because they were worried about skin cancer. Sure, it's their choice, and maybe even the right choice for them, but that wouldn't stop you from feeling sad for them at what they're missing.
Note that I realize that some people are not happy as parents and don't enjoy it and make themselves (and often their kids) miserable also. I'm not saying everybody should have kids. I'm just saying I feel sorry for those who don't, and sorrier still for those who do and who shouldn't have.
I'm stoked to be a parent, it is awesome. But I didn't want kids until recently and I'm glad that circumstances didn't force or coerce me into having them before I was ready. I wouldn't wish kids on anyone. It is a big commitment and isn't worth it unless you are so selfish that you need to fulfill a limbic desire over all reason.
YES!
My wife and I waited until I had finished grad school and gotten a steady job. At 31, I was about 10 years older than my inlaws were when they first started popping out kids.
I'm glad I waited. I did the things I wanted to that would have been hard with kids (moving from job to job, partied a bunch, got a job that can afford them with health care, etc.) and it was a conscious choice to have them. I have never regretted it, but I could see how I might have if they had started arriving before I was ready.
It was excessively easy though. First try. Which actually made me sweat a bit and feel a little queasy when I realized how different things would have been if we had started having kids before I was ready had we not been as careful as we were.
I've never really gotten this whole "shackled to the kids" mentality that some folks have. And usually it's other parents selling me this line. When my wife was pregnant with our first kid, a common response from other parents was, "Congratulations! Enjoy your freedom now, because in nine months, it's over forever!"
But that just hasn't been my experience. For example, travel has not been something relegated to my youthful days. My toddler has been to Spain twice in the past couple years, and we'll be backpacking the Dales in northern England this summer with the toddler and a 6-month baby. I'm eying a service project in India next year for the entire family.
I don't really get why people get their panties in an uproar when someone says that they don't want to have kids.
I have met people who don't want to have kids, and I totally get it. It's deffinately not for everyone. I see both sides of the fence and I can appreciate both.
I love my kids to death, but if there was some medical reason why I couldn't have kids, or if my life went a different way and I was single for most my life. Then I don't think I would be upset about not having kids. My wife on the other hand would probably have been upset to not have kids, because it was something she really really wanted. I was ok either way.
But to say one person's choice is better/worse then the other is stupid. You may as well pick apart any of their life choices for that matter.
what? you didn't get married? what's wrong with you?
“They’re a huge source of joy, but they turn every other source of joy to shit.”
Exactly, while I certainly believe children bring joy to their parents, they ensure the destruction of their parent's individuality.
Every aspect of personal wants/needs/desires must be put on hold for the 18 years it takes to raise a child.
I am certainly glad that I live in today's culture. When anyone asks me when the husband and kids are coming I can tell them to get stuffed. Or drone on and on about population zero, the effects of overpopulation on the climate, what great disasters will be waiting for the next generation, and the current studies showing the negative effects of marriage on women's mental health. That usually shuts them up!
Wow. I'm guessing you've either never been a parent or had some tough kids. My two sons enhanced our lives and were never a burden that we weren't ready to solve.
All you have to do is pay attention to their needs and make sure they are paying attention to yours.
I feel for you.
Why would you feel for me? I made a very conscious decision not to have kids.
I have been able to travel the whole world, have an amazing partner, a social life that is pretty much 24-7, an education, and a job in my dream field, and the knowledge that I have not added to the environmental stress of the world.
To feel bad for me is akin to saying that your choices are better than mine and you pity me. But, as you can see, my choices were perfect for me. There is no reason to be condescending just because I choose to live a different life than you. It is as equally fulfilling!
Boy, Andy, did you hear something different than I did. I heard "she's single..."
“They’re a huge source of joy, but they turn every other source of joy to shit.”
Exactly, while I certainly believe children bring joy to their parents, they ensure the destruction of their parent's individuality.
Every aspect of personal wants/needs/desires must be put on hold for the 18 years it takes to raise a child.
I am certainly glad that I live in today's culture. When anyone asks me when the husband and kids are coming I can tell them to get stuffed. Or drone on and on about population zero, the effects of overpopulation on the climate, what great disasters will be waiting for the next generation, and the current studies showing the negative effects of marriage on women's mental health. That usually shuts them up!
Wow. I'm guessing you've either never been a parent or had some tough kids. My two sons enhanced our lives and were never a burden that we weren't ready to solve.
All you have to do is pay attention to their needs and make sure they are paying attention to yours.
I feel for you.
Why would you feel for me? I made a very conscious decision not to have kids.
I have been able to travel the whole world, have an amazing partner, a social life that is pretty much 24-7, an education, and a job in my dream field, and the knowledge that I have not added to the environmental stress of the world.
To feel bad for me is akin to saying that your choices are better than mine and you pity me. But, as you can see, my choices were perfect for me. There is no reason to be condescending just because I choose to live a different life than you. It is as equally fulfilling!
Boy, Andy, did you hear something different than I did. I heard "she's single..."
"Single" has no meaning. A lot of single people are parents. Anyway, my younger brother decided a long time ago he didn't want to have children. I've never judged him for that decision, it was his. More power to people who do or don't want to have kids.
It's not our right to judge others. Maybe more people should remember that.
. While I'm a different person than before they were born, I can say with certainty that I retain a good deal of who I was and what was/is important to me. I have turned to carrying for two additional people that I didn't know before so, yes, it's likely some of my values have been redirected, but I wouldn't say that makes me less of an individual.
