Hey Nonny Mouse
United States
Longmont
Colorado
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You're asking them to commit not only to a theme, but to a specific name? I'm not sure I see the upside, for you or them.
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Jayson Stevens
Canada
Surrey
British Columbia
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goodshepherd wrote: Quote: 2. A method of playing a trading card game, the game components including rules of play, which include instructions on execution of a turn, and the predetermined number of cards in a library of trading cards and the hand of trading cards, and a reservoir of trading cards, the method of playing the card game for each player comprising the steps of:
collecting an individual pool of trading cards from the reservoir of trading cards by purchasing and trading with others;
constructing a library of a predetermined number of trading cards from the player's pool of trading cards by selecting individual cards the player elects to play with;
obtaining a hand of a predetermined number of trading cards from the player's library of trading cards; and
executing a turn at the player's option, in sequence with other players to, at the player's option, enter and remove one or more cards into and out of play in accordance with the rules, said step of executing a turn for each player comprises:
(a) drawing one or more trading cards from the library of trading card:
(b) entering one or more trading cards into play by placing the one or more trading cards face up in a first orientation on a playing surface, and at the player's option, using one or more trading cards that have been entered into play in accordance with the rules and tapping each trading card used in play so all players are aware the trading card is in use by turning the trading cards from the first orientation to a second orientation on the playing surface; and
(c) discarding one or more trading cards into a discard area on the playing surface as necessary to maintain the predetermined number of cards in the player's hand of trading cards. From the bolded portions alone, this covers every TCG/CCG regardless of the rules.
No it doesn't. A patent doesn't cover "every bit of every element described". It covers the WHOLE THING as described. Change even one element, and it's not covered.
For instance, Yu Gi Oh allows you to play cards face down. This completely dodges the patent as it only describes cards entering play face up.
Any game without a hand size limit also gets around it, as the described game specifies meeting hand sizes.
Etc etc. Patents are super specific, which is why drug companies can make miniscule changes to drugs and obtain an entirely new patent for 14 years on what is, effectively, the same drug.
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Jayson Stevens
Canada
Surrey
British Columbia
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static_void wrote: Ah! Okay, that makes sense. I can definitely understand their side of NDAs now.
What about registering a trademark for my game's name -- Is that a problem for developers? If so, why?
Because what you have come up with in terms of your game may not be what is actually published. Depending on the market, the assets the publisher has, and other factors, your game may end up with a completely different name, theme and set of art than you were ever envisioning.
Here's a perfect example. In another thread, someone is asking for help on a spawning mechanic for his game. It's a Zombie Survival horror game, and he needs to spawn new Zombies each turn to attack the Survivors. If enough zombies are in the same area, they form a Mob and are harder to defeat.
Now lets say that the game is picked up by a company that has a very strong theme to all their games, like oh... High Noon Saloon Productions, who make games with Wild West themes.
All of a sudden, his Survival game with Zombies and Mobs is going to be a Cowboy game with Outlaws and Gangs.
Just watch:
Quote: In another thread, someone is asking for help on a spawning mechanic for his game. It's a Wild West gunfighting game, and he needs to spawn new Outlaws each turn to attack the Cowboy. If enough outlaws are in the same area, they form a Gang and are harder to defeat.
Still makes sense, right?
Here's the kicker... the game I'm referring to IS actually a Cowboy game already!
But you can see how easily it could be turned into a Zombie game, especially if published by Twilight Creations, for instance.
All of a sudden, your Trademarked name becomes absolutely worthless.
Even if the theme and everything stays the same, the name might not. A lot of games undergo last minute name changes when someone comes up with the perfect name all of a sudden.
http://www.boardgamegeek.com/blogpost/5335/designer-diary-a-...
This is an example of the "perfect" name changing several times. The final name change was done by the publisher, and the designer agreed it was the best name.
It's the same reason everyone recommends not commissioning professional art. The publisher can and probably will completely replace the art to better match their house style, or the entirely new theme that's applied.
Do not commit money to ANYTHING that is absolutely not 100% absolutely certain committed and already at the printer.
You're the designer. Once you sign on with a publisher, they have a developer take your design and make all the changes necessary to make the game work. They clarify rules, tweak balance, adjust odds, work with theme... at this point, the designer (you) are not overly involved in the process, and you certainly do not always get the final say.
In fiction publishing, this is comparable to the writer and editor.
The writer tells the story, and the editor cleans it up and makes it GOOD.
The designer of a game (you) create the basic game, and the developer makes it good.
If you require 100% creative control over your game... then you cannot and will not deal with an actual publisher. The only way to have complete control is to self-publish, in which case most of this is pointless.
The best advice remains. Don't spend money on anything you don't absolutely need to, and do not spend buckets of money to defend against possible, likely imaginary "threats".
Remember, you're dealing with an industry where selling a mere 10 thousand units (and earning $1 per copy) makes you a worldwide bestseller.
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Paul DeStefano
United States
Long Island
New York
It's a Zendrum. www.zendrum.com
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static_void wrote:
What about registering a trademark for my game's name -- Is that a problem for developers? If so, why?
Wow.
I'm seriously starting to think this is just trolling now.
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m m
United States
columbus
Ohio
-
@ static_void
Are you planning on starting your own publishing company and selling your game/s through this company?
If not then stop wasting everyone’s time trying to argue their answers to fit the response you want.
Everyone has given you clear indicators that it is not in your best interest as a designer to worry about a patent, trademark or copyright if you are planning on submitting your game to an established publisher, because as everyone has pointed out, the publisher is going to make the changes they need to the design to get a product out they can sell. How much more feedback do you need? If you don’t want to listen to everyone here, then go hire a lawyer with Patent and IP experience and spend a few grand to find out the same thing everyone has already told you.
All you’re doing is creating roadblocks for yourself.
Now if you’re planning on starting a company then by all means you need to look at getting a copyright for the written materials and original artwork and getting a trademark for any original names and/or logos. A patent though unless you’re coming up with something that has never been done before, its not going to be worth the expense as several people have pointed out already.
The patent system wasn’t designed for creative media such as board games it was designed for inventions using mechanical devices and or some new process. While the patent system is certainly in need of an update, that’s outside the scope of this thread.
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Dan Hale
United States
Utah
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Wow... just wow.
Umm... I must be severely misunderstanding what's going on here. Why am I being chewed out?
I'm not trying to dredge for the answers I want; I'm trying to understand why these answers are what they are, and where there's room to maneuver and work with people. Where are the hard lines, and where are people willing to negotiate? I'm surprised at the rudeness this has generated.
And yes, as you (very sneeringly) suggested, I'm trying to consider whether self-publishing or starting a small business is conceivably a good idea. Considering that I can only look forward to $1 per game sold and 10000 games sold as a best case scenario, working with publishers does NOT sound like a better deal than squandering my money trying to explore these waters on my own. If I'm not going to make any money working with developers, then I'd at least like to consider the idea of self-publishing, even if I never make a cent or lose money. That's better than signing over my favorite games to a publisher for a few hundred bucks, or a couple thousand on an amazingly good year. For that I'd keep the games to myself and instead just work overtime at my job.
I didn't realize it was so taboo here to ask for clarification & details and to explore options. Clearly my mistake.
Edit: This was mostly in response to the last 2 posts. The rest of you, I appreciate your explanations of how things work and why. They are helping tremendously!
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To answer your question: no a trademark is not worth it. The publisher will change the name of your game, and then the trademark is worthless. A trademark just says you're inflexible.
Short version: if you want your game published, don't pursue any intellectual property protection at all. The publisher may decide to protect the final product, but what you offer them is going to be a first draft, even if you think it's 100% finished.
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Dan Hale
United States
Utah
-
Hmm... so now I need to decide whether it's worth it to try to approach a publisher and give up a good portion of rights & input for my game, or just try to sell it on my own for kicks and the small possibility of making it. That will determine whether I want to file a copyright and/or trademark at all.
Thanks sbszine and others!
Also, as an addendum to my last post:
Let me explain why I'm asking so many questions. Getting your game published is a game itself, and it has lots of little rules that are not well explained. Imagine sitting down to your first D&D game and you're planning out your character.
You're quickly given some advice such as "don't take X feat, it's a trap/newbie move". X feat looks really dang neat-o, so you ask why it's so bad. The other players who are helping you give you conflicting responses. One person says, "Well it's so overpowered/complicated/etc the DM will slap it down immediately or house-rule it out", while another says, "No, the DM shouldn't have any problems with it and I've actually used it in this group".
Now you're a bit confused, so you ask for more details about how the feat works. What are these keywords? What does this mean? What happens if I do this? Your intent is to figure out if there are ever appropriate times to use this (and to figure out why different answers conflicted), or if it's an outright bad idea. People help you for a while, but eventually some get very impatient and angry with you. Some claim you must be trolling, as no one could be that stupid.
You didn't intend that; you were just asking for details on how things work.
That's how I see this. I'm trying to play the "get your game published" game here, but I don't know the rules. The rules I have been given confused me (and have sometimes conflicted), so I asked for explanations, details, reasons why. I just wanted to understand where the lines were and how to navigate the system, and understanding the actual rules and implications of what I do is a major part of that. Clearly I've upset people, so I should probably stop trying to get help here. Sorry guys.
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Jayson Stevens
Canada
Surrey
British Columbia
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static_void wrote: Considering that I can only look forward to $1 per game sold and 10000 games sold as a best case scenario, working with publishers does NOT sound like a better deal than squandering my money trying to explore these waters on my own.
You still lack perspective.
If publishers were always as bad a proposition as you seem to think they are, then why would anyone ever use them? Obviously, they have real benefits, because thousands of people use them every year.
Here's the thing. 10k units is a SERIOUS bestseller. For most games, you're looking at 2-3 thousand sales, tops.
If you self-publish, you get to keep a bigger cut of the money. You might make TWO dollars a copy.
Here's how things break down for value.
Lets say your game sells for $50.
This means that each copy you sell via distribution will net you $20.
You can expect to have spent $12-14 per copy on that. So your cut is $6-8 per copy. Lets be median and call it $7.
And you'll sell 3000 copies (that's GREAT sales) over 2 years (that's a FAST sell-through).
Awesome. You've profited $21000 over 2 years. Barring a massive runaway hit, this is the best you can ever hope for.
Mind you, that's not $12000 in profit. That goes towards paying you for all your work in making the game, developing the rules, creating prototypes, setting up contracts with the printer, getting a distributor to take the game, running a website, advertising and promotion, customer support (replacing bits from manufacturing errors), managing sales from your website, managing shipping from your website, warehousing/storage for copies that haven't sold into distribution, incorporating as a business, handling taxes, legal fees..........
Think about how many hours you've spent on your game so far. You can reasonably expect to double that from this point if you're going to self-publish. Not including any further time for playtesting, revision, securing all the art, and everything else that needs doing to make this publishable.
So take the $21k and divide it by that many hours to see what you're earning. And remember that it will take you 2 years (or more) to see all of that money.
It's a hell of a lot less than minimum wage, I guarantee you.
Now, if you go with a publisher, you'll only get $1-2 per copy... but THEY will cover all the time and costs I'm talking about, and they can do it faster and better than you can. They already have contacts with printers and can probably get a better deal on printing. They have artists, and don't need to track various people down, negotiate contracts, and then wait and hope the freelancers produce on time. They handle all the heavy lifting from here on out, and they take some of the money for it.
The other thing a publisher does for you is assume risk.
Lets say you go ahead as a self publisher. So you print 3000 copies at $13 each. That's almost $40,000 you're spending up front, and that's JUST on printing. This doesn't cover any of the other expenses like securing contracts, getting a business license, legal fees, component testing, shipping, warehousing and paying your bills.
Now, lets say your game bombs. You sell maybe 500 copies (this isn't uncommon). You bring in 500x$20= $10k in revenue.
Congrats, you just lost $30,000+ dollars because you insisted on trying to reinvent the wheel without actually knowing what a wheel is.
Conversely, if you went with the publisher, you would spend NO money upfront beyond the cost of making a prototype, would earn $1000 in royalties, and would LOSE NOTHING.
If you're willing to risk $30,000 just so you can "explore these waters on you own" then go for it.
It's just, frankly, irrational to say "If I can make a small but guaranteed profit this way, I would rather lose money to do it myself"
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Simon Lundström
Sweden
Örbyhus
Now who are these five?
Come, come, all children who love fairy tales.
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static_void wrote: I didn't realize it was so taboo here to ask for clarification & details and to explore options. Clearly my mistake.
It's not taboo at all. But trademarking a name before you go to the publisher with your idea is (as people have pointed out) so out-of-the-question weird (for reasons given) that for those who know the trade, it almost sounds like you're asking out of spite. Which I have no doubt you're not doing at all, but that how strange the question feels. (A bit like "I am going to a first date, should I bring the wedding papers for her to sign?")
Trademarking a name is only worth it if you indend to use the name a lot in the future, for a whole line of new products. In any case, trademarking the name is the publisher's problem, not the designer's.
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Simon Lundström
Sweden
Örbyhus
Now who are these five?
Come, come, all children who love fairy tales.
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static_void wrote: If I'm not going to make any money working with developers, then I'd at least like to consider the idea of self-publishing, even if I never make a cent or lose money. That's better than signing over my favorite games to a publisher for a few hundred bucks, or a couple thousand on an amazingly good year. For that I'd keep the games to myself and instead just work overtime at my job.
Generally, publishing it yourself means risking a lot of money and time, but generally, I prefer this approach, so personally, I'd advice you to do just this – publish it yourself. Just be prepared to a) use some tens of thousand bucks to get it printed b) have a hell of a time getting it distributed and c) have a lot of space to store the games before they ship.
There is one other danger with publishing it yourself, and that's the simple fact that you don't have a professional developper look at it. But this is not a problem if your product is good enough.
There are a LOT of small publishers in this realm. Nothing says you can't be the next one. If you are keen on being in the whole creative process, then doing it yourself is basically the only option. As a designer with an idea to a company, it's much like a script writer and a movie producer – you give them something, and you have little power over what the finished product is called and/or looks like.
Edit: and oh, even if you publish it yourself, don't EVER bother with patents. It's pointless. And trademark the name ONLY if you believe it will be a smash-hit AND you will release a whole string of products under the same name. Only then will name protection mean something. If you do a wonderful, complete game called "Doom Circles" and plan on one expansion, then there's no need for the hazzle of trademarking it. Your game will sell if it's good, and anyone in this business trying to release a similar game called "Doom Circles" will be slaughtered by the customers.
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Ben Pinchback
United States
Romeo
Michigan
-
I'll save you some time. Stop trying to make money.
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Paul DeStefano
United States
Long Island
New York
It's a Zendrum. www.zendrum.com
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static_void wrote:
I didn't realize it was so taboo here to ask for clarification & details and to explore options. Clearly my mistake.
I didn't mean to offend you. Your questions in all seriousness completely baffle me.
After 3 pages of "Sir, we don't want chocolate in our dessert", you come up with "Well, how about chocolate chip cookies".
You seem overly obsessed with needing some form of legal protection even after everyone has warned repeatedly against it.
I'm not trying to be mean, but I really, really, really think you're just reading for the answers you want and will keep rephrasing the question until you get it.
Assume your first game sells under 1000 copies. Many publishers would be very, very happy with that number. The 10,000 figure you state it outrageously huge and there are games in the top 100 who haven't come remotely near that.
Also realize, not all publishers work on royalty. Flat fee is common. If you have never been published before, if a publisher is offering $250 buyout, that's not a bad deal. If they offer 2%, they mean 2% of the dealer price. That means for a $30MSRP game, you get 2% of $15. To get the same $250, you would need to sell 834 copies, which can very conceivably be larger than the run they order and can take 2 years to sell.
Do not assume under any condition that having your first game on the market does anything more than lose you money.
Are there first games that make more and self publishers who sell out huge runs?
Sure, but people win the lottery every week.
Don't buy a house before the winning numbers are revealed.
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Paul DeStefano
United States
Long Island
New York
It's a Zendrum. www.zendrum.com
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As a separate piece of advice, if you think that you were spoken to offensively, you will need a MUCH thicker skin to get into this business.
I still can't find anything in my post that would be offensive as I was wondering whether or not you were serious. I did not attack you in anyway, and much like you, I was very seriously trying to find an answer.
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Paul DeStefano
United States
Long Island
New York
It's a Zendrum. www.zendrum.com
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Zimeon wrote: static_void wrote: I didn't realize it was so taboo here to ask for clarification & details and to explore options. Clearly my mistake. It's not taboo at all. But trademarking a name before you go to the publisher with your idea is (as people have pointed out) so out-of-the-question weird (for reasons given) that for those who know the trade, it almost sounds like you're asking out of spite. Which I have no doubt you're not doing at all, but that how strange the question feels.
Exactly.
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Philip Migas
United States
Akron
Ohio
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[q="static_void"]I didn't realize it was so taboo here to ask for clarification & details and to explore options. Clearly my mistake.
[q]
From my prespective, no body has been rude. Static you need to take it from our prespective. This question is asked all the time on the design forums from new users like you. We regulars keep answering the question over and over and over the exact same way. But it keeps getting asked again and again. You are being very persistant for proof but seem to be skeptical of the answers given. Everone has tried to answer you the best they can.
Also remember that written formats can sometimes come across more blunt than intended. Everyone is trying to be helpful.
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Stefan Alexander
Canada
Waterloo
ON
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Regarding the OP's comment:
static_void wrote: Umm... I must be severely misunderstanding what's going on here. Why am I being chewed out?
and a couple of responses:
Geosphere wrote: I still can't find anything in my post that would be offensive ...
pmigas wrote: From my prespective, no body has been rude.
Let me just throw out a few miscellaneous observations without further commentary:
1. In my opinion, several of the comments towards you have, in fact, been rude/harsh/offensive
2. I regularly find people who post these types of comments on the BGG forums, although many people do not.
3. The BGG forums have fewer people that post rude comments than most internet forums
4. The people who make these types of posts generally believe they're either not being rude, or are justified in being rude, and generally just want to help
5. I think most people who post these types of comments on BGG do, in fact, have something quite useful to say, unlike the internet at large. This is particularly true for this thread.
6. I have a harder time swallowing advice, even advice I agree with, when I feel it's thrown rather than offered.
7. Experienced designers don't worry about protecting their games.
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BT Carpenter
United States
Reston
Virginia
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I'll name two games that started as small enterprises and turned into full blown printed games.
Revolution! started as a self published game and was later picked up by Steve Jackson Games.
The Resistance started as a print and play and then tried to go self-published and was later picked up by Indie Boards and Cards.
Maybe look at those two titles and see the paths they took?
Honestly, everything is different. Having legal protections (copyright, trademark, patent, etc) depends on your level of comfort and when and if you sell the game, you would be expected to relinquish those rights to the company doing the production, at least for the duration necessary to publish the game.
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Douglas Weinstein
United States
Dunwoody
Georgia [GA]
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I think that a key thing to remember is that the law gives you a lot of protection without you having to do anything or spend a dime. You have common law rights to your trademark when you begin to use the name in commerce - of course this is limited in geographic scope and product range compared to a Federally registered trademark. You also have copyright protection from the moment you put your work in a tangible medium.
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Sturv Tafvherd
United States
North Carolina
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Zimeon wrote: ... like "I am going to a first date, should I bring the wedding papers for her to sign?"
No no no ... it's more like
"I am going on a first date, should I bring the prenuptial agreement?"
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Jayson Stevens
Canada
Surrey
British Columbia
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byronczimmer wrote: I'll name two games that started as small enterprises and turned into full blown printed games. Revolution! started as a self published game and was later picked up by Steve Jackson Games. Maybe look at those two titles and see the paths they took?
In the case of Revolution (which is an incredible game, well worth playing), Phil duBarry had hand-manufactured a small number of copies (50). He had an incredible stroke of luck when Phil Reed at Steve jackson Games just happened to buy a copy (as a personal purchase) and loved it enough to show it to Steve.
This is not a recommended nor consistent path to full publication. In this case, it was pure luck - doubly so because SJG is closed to outside game submissions. The only reason it even got considered is because Phil Reed is fairly close to SJ, and randomly bought a copy for himself.
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Dan Hale
United States
Utah
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FYI: You mention that you guys answer these questions all the time. It may be well worth your time to create a sticky thread that answers them in the detail you've provided here. For example, the other stickies make no mention of the fact that you should NOT copyright or trademark if you intend to pitch to a publisher, let alone why not. One of the stickies discusses WHAT they are, but does not go into this level of detail about WHEN to do them and why/why not. It simply does not convey this information.
It would save you guys from having to re-answer questions quite as often in thread after thread (and you would have a place to point people with a single link), and it would give some much-needed detail that never comes up otherwise. And if it means that much to you, it would reduce the frequency of having to deal with people like me. 
But I've raised peoples' hackles here quite enough, so I'd better leave it at that.
Last of all, I'd like to address the issue of what feels/sounds insulting in a forum. You're right, something not meant to be insulting can be taken as very insulting. However, how things are phrased is very powerful, especially when it's thrilling to type it. It can also reveal a lot of what you think of the person.
Let's take a simple example:
Stormtower wrote: Zimeon wrote: ... like "I am going to a first date, should I bring the wedding papers for her to sign?" No no no ... it's more like "I am going on a first date, should I bring the prenuptial agreement?"
I'm glad you think so highly of me and other people you have sought to help. :/
So..... I must be the only one here who imagines things the way I do, but let's take that analogy at face value. Suppose for a minute that you actually meet someone who thinks that way. What a freak, huh? Well it turns out he comes from a place where that's just how it's done, and he has been taught that right from the beginning and knows nothing else. You're trying to convince him that it's not wise, but it takes 3 pages worth of discussion to get him there. He's trying to reconcile the advice you're giving him now with the advice he's received over a lifetime, and he really wants to understand the details of WHY this is such a bad idea and where to draw the lines. Sure it takes a while to get him there, but why would you expect anything else?
Remember, he's trying to remap what he knows and figure out boundaries that didn't exist before. He doesn't know what you take for granted and assume to be common sense that all sentient beings would know -- he was taught the exact opposite. By the end of the discussion (and your patience) you're getting into the details of not only how women would react to that behavior, but also WHY they respond that way. It takes until then for him to understand.
He's not stupid, he's not trolling, he's not trying to browbeat you into giving him the answer he wants. He seriously doesn't know. You ask me to see if from your perspective; I ask you to at least consider seeing it from mine, especially since I'm not going to be the last to be baffled by these answers. I'm wasn't trying to be difficult here, I'm not being belligerent, and I'm not trying to fish for the answers I want. I just wanted to understand these new rules and why what I was doing was wrong.
Marriage analogy aside, I come from a family whose members have lost inventions because they didn't patent them, who have had valuable ideas stolen from them because they didn't have a lawyer or know their rights. I come from a family who, upon playing this game with me, strongly pushed me to protect it legally and explained what happens when you don't. Then I spoke to a lawyer who said about the same, and plotted out a course for me to follow. Then I came here. I spent this thread trying to reconcile all that previous advice with the advice I got here.
I get that you were baffled by my behavior, but... wow. It's pretty insulting to compare this conversation to repeatedly asking about prenuptial agreements on the first date. It also reveals a bit of how you see the people you're out to help. 
If you want to help people, remember:
1) Explain what -- what to do and what not to do
2) Explain why -- expound on the reasons WHY that's the right/wrong course of action. The 'what' without that context of 'why' is often too insubstantial to change minds that have been taught differently. They already have a why that's competing in their mind with yours -- and it's winning unless you can give a more substantial explanation.
3) Don't assume the worst about people, even if they're not understanding you. Even when it feels *really good* to call them out on their stupidity.
And seriously, make a sticky dedicated to the subject (or edit the sticky that's there so it covers this too). If this stuff is so important to get right, it's worth keeping at the top of the forum where people can find it right off. This stuff is NOT intuitive to newbies, especially those who come from other career fields and backgrounds that teach the exact opposite. It's obvious to you, even frustratingly obvious, but the rest of us don't have that perspective.
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Simon Lundström
Sweden
Örbyhus
Now who are these five?
Come, come, all children who love fairy tales.
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static_void wrote: Suppose for a minute that you actually meet someone who thinks that way. What a freak, huh? Well it turns out he comes from a place where that's just how it's done, and he has been taught that right from the beginning and knows nothing else. You're trying to convince him that it's not wise, but it takes 3 pages worth of discussion to get him there. He's trying to reconcile the advice you're giving him now with the advice he's received over a lifetime, and he really wants to understand the details of WHY this is such a bad idea and where to draw the lines. Sure it takes a while to get him there, but why would you expect anything else?
I wouldn't expect anything else.
It's just that on the internet, it's hard to determine if a person is sincere or not – now and then this guy shows up, asks a typical question, gets replies, asks an even stranger question, get replies again and the questions elaborate into something that (people consider) is really weird, and in the end it turns out the guy was just asking to get a lot of replies, a lot of reaction and raise a lot of anger/frustration. There are people like that. You're a new user, no one knows who you are, we can't hear your tone of voice if it sounds sincere or not; some people are bound to start suspecting you're a troll even though you're not.
Heck, _I_ was considered a troll, just a year ago, when I explained that I think digital board games won't make real board games disappear as the very point of "not being digital" (doesn't need electrical appliances, tangible components, you enforce the rules) is a central part of the charm of board games. A couple of people found this sentiment so incomprehensible and incredulous that they – just like here – expressed that they started feeling like I was trolling.
In text forums, you miss a lot of the communication, so there are bound to be misunderstandings (and suspicion). That's just how it is. Also, people here tend to be over-knowledgeable about board games and the construction thereof. The more you know, the less chance you have ot understanding someone who doesn't know a thing.
Shortly put, I don't think you're not sincere, but I don't think anyone here is deliberately trying to be mean either. People here are as sincere as you. When someone posts "I think he might be trolling" after a "should I trademark the name?" question, it's not an over-haughty attitude, it's a sincere thought. When I drew a parallel to dating, it's not because I wanted to make fun of you, but because I wanted you to understand how the over-the-top the question felt for us. But you're completely right; if a guy had grown up learning, let's just say, that you don't EVER eat dinner with someone you're not married to, it would be perfectly reasonable to ask if one should bring the wedding papers to sign. But, as said, if someone asks that in a dating forum, he's bound to be treated with a "wait, what?"
It sucks that your family's ideas has been stolen. I can tell you the short version as to why legal IP protection is so much less a point when it comes to board games:
1) There isn't enourmous amounts of money to gain here, so people don't bother with stealing ideas. It's not worth it. WHy? Well…
2) The market is so small that everyone knows everyone. Misbehaving, like stealing someone's ides, will seriously hurt your business BAD. Reputation among your peers is a pretty big thing in this market.
Imagine you go to a publisher with an idea. He rejects it, but keeps it in mind, and produces the game without paying you a cent. Now, imagine this publisher does this twice. He won't survive. The word will get out, no one will ever come with their ideas to that publisher again. In-house designers are rare; they rely on freelancers. If they mistreat the freelancers, they're out.
If there were millions of bucks to make from stealing an idea, you'd have smaller publishers doing that and then disappearing with the money. If the market was bigger and the companies to over-huge that no bad publicity could ever hurt them (like, say, Coca Cola or Mac Donald's) then it would also happen, and you'd need legal protection. However, this is not the case. This world is small, all publishers know all, and although there are strifes and quarrels and people who claim theft of ideas "because I never gave them rights to republish game XXXX", blatant idea theft is only bad for business and everyone knows it.
This is the reason a lawyer will give you a different type of advice than people here. The lawyers don't know jack about the board game market. People here know a lot more about board games and the relevance of IP protection than lawyers do.
Legal discussion aside, above anything else I'm looking forward to your game. And that, I can assure, goes for every single individual in this thread. Keep us posted, will you?
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Simon Lundström
Sweden
Örbyhus
Now who are these five?
Come, come, all children who love fairy tales.
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Also, welcome to BGG, (and I'm not sarcastic). Get yourself an avatar.
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JJL
United States
Maryland
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There is a lot of inaccurate information in this thread, unfortunately. I am new to BGG and can't say I know much about game publishing, but I am a patent and IP lawyer. Just to clarify a few general points, it is unlikely in the extreme that any board game mechanic would receive patent protection due to recent developments in the law (i.e., the fact that such patents may have been granted in the past isn't helpful). However, it IS potentially possible to get a patent on the design of a game or portion of a game in the sense that ornamental designs can be patented (e.g., a unique shape of a nail file that has no functional advantage but is novel and not an obvious variation of preexisting designs).
The U.S. is no longer a "first to invent" system because of the recently enacted America Invents Act.
Legal mechanisms prevent patent holders from lying in wait until someone infringes for a while before suing to trap them (e.g., a defense called "laches").
Patents can be asserted against "knock offs" because insignificant changes often can't get you out of infringement, even if you don't literally meet all of the elements of a patent claim.
Many patents are enforced without filing a lawsuit. Often the threat of a lawsuit gives the patent holder significant leverage, for example in negotiations about compensation. The same can be true about copyrights and trademarks. Many factors affect how much leverage is possible, including the strength of the IP, the extent of the target's exposure, the costs of litigation (for both sides), etc.
Patents can have value beyond just enforcing them. They can be licensed or sold like any other property, as can copyrights and trademarks, sometimes for a lot of money. I can't comment on the value of any patents or other IP associated with board games, however.
Patents often are not obstacles to improvements and newer ideas and in fact help innovation. They require significant public disclosure, which helps disseminate information to other innovators. And their scope is limited by the patent claims and term, among other things.
Patents, copyrights, and trademarks are absolutely not interchangeable. They protect different things, have different requirements, and have different values even where they overlap. So don't assume that a trademark, for example, will provide similar protection or value as a patent or a copyright.
As for non-disclosure agreements, they can be tailored in almost any way the parties want. So a company would not necessarily risk existing projects by signing an NDA with a designer (assuming they can prove they had their project first). Exemptions for such situations are commonplace.
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