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Battlestar Galactica: Exodus Expansion» Forums » Variants

Subject: Rebel Cylon Revisited rss

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Jan Itor
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Daimbert wrote:
I'm going to be a bit radical here: make it an actual, ever-present loyalty card, from the beginning, with no trigger. Make it so that the Cylon can reveal it at any time to move to and bring in the rebel basestar. Design the locations of the basestar with that in mind.

In V14, my biggest problem was that early in the game I really had no idea how to play. It worked out, basically, that I played bad cop and Simon played good cop, and we ended up as the Cylon and Rebel Cylon respectively. But how do you play early in the game? But if you give it out as a loyalty card, then we have a chance to plan. The Cylon locations have some really decent ones for a Rebel Cylon working behind the scenes (Caprica, for example, is amazing). If you make it so that there are benefits to staying hidden and benefits for revealing -- I found the Rebel Basestar options unimpressive, myself -- then you get into a nice cat and mouse game for the Cylon Leaders trying to prove their worth. And since you're using leaders, infiltration is an option and one that isn't available if they reveal.

There are issues with how that loyalty could be revealed otherwise, but the humans will have the uncertainty and the Cylons the attempts to prove and deceive, which is nice and thematic.

I personally didn't mind being the Leader early except for not knowing whether to be aggressive or benevolent.


I do agree the options are a bit "meh" at the moment.
 
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David Turczi
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Frankly I don't like Cylon Leaders

And don't forget this is a 3rd non-human player, so it shouldn't cause much more duplicity than a sympathizer...

As for the cylon being able to choose his side?
He can not WILLINGLY choose the humans.
A: If triggered he can choose to stay silent to remain cylon, he might get airlocked (and have a revelation )
B: If not triggered he can reveal and try to work so he rebels, but that takes effort, not a simple choice

So I don't think the cylon can easily jump ship. In fact the only skewed scenario I can see is (with Airlock damaged/destroyed) an unrevealed rebel sitting in the Brig hoping for a quick 3v3 cylon victory (before getting hit with an execute prisoner or something). And that is such a tiny corner case that for this alone I shouldn't complicate things with an additional "if x you may reveal, if x^2 you must reveal" and such.
 
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David Turczi
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Valen200 wrote:
I do agree the options are a bit "meh" at the moment.


You mean the rebel locations? How would you change?

I took what I liked from LL6869's post and DTHz's original idea, I may have even made them "stronger" (e.g. not needing to discard for attacking raiders)
 
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Atomic Robo
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TDaver wrote:
Valen200 wrote:
I do agree the options are a bit "meh" at the moment.


You mean the rebel locations? How would you change?

I took what I liked from LL6869's post and DTHz's original idea, I may have even made them "stronger" (e.g. not needing to discard for attacking raiders)

I dunno, if I had to choose between the Basestar you designed and the one I designed... I think I'd prefer my own. Obviously I'm biased, but I really don't see yours as being in any way better. (And I don't see mine as overpowered.)

And I'm stating this because I really do want to hear more discussion about the -why- of doing things a certain way. What it adds to the game.
 
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David Turczi
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I'm not saying yours is owerpowered, in fact I think your Raider Bay is way weaker than my Rebel Hybrid.
Your Rebel Hybrid is included in mine.
So the only real question I see is
Do we want the indicator based powers or not?

If not, Missile Batteries shall be another Weapons Control, and Rebel Hybrid a better Research Lab or Launch Scout...
 
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Carl Bussema
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So by making it "movement or action" you now have a 1-turn delay (without XO/SoE help) if you need the RB to do something that it's not in the right mode for and you're not on the right spot for.

This suggests that camping Rebel Hybrid and leaving the ship in mode A is probably the right move most of the time; since you can always have fun with the crisis deck for your action, and raiders are the thing you're most likely to want to shoot.

With some teamwork with the humans, I suppose you could get some more use out of other modes; for example you could use Datafont as a movement ability to move the ship and then use your action to change the mode, then let a human attack with the ship? Yeah, I gotta say that's not impressing me much; an XO to main batteries / cic / weapons / a pilot is better in most cases.

I think you really need to be able to change the mode AND move somewhere AND do something if you're going to be contributing to your team, otherwise you might as well just be Roslin... your turn is to XO or Consolidate Power and pick the better of two crises.
 
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Atomic Robo
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TDaver wrote:
I'm not saying yours is owerpowered, in fact I think your Raider Bay is way weaker than my Rebel Hybrid.
Your Rebel Hybrid is included in mine.
So the only real question I see is
Do we want the indicator based powers or not?

If not, Missile Batteries shall be another Weapons Control, and Rebel Hybrid a better Research Lab or Launch Scout...

I agree that your Rebel Hybrid serves a variety of purposes. Pretty much the reasoning again behind my Raider Bay was to give people an option of a location to go to if all Raptors had been destroyed to Scout. Your Rebel Hybrid instead allows them to do a Scout plus for no risk. So once the Rebel Basestar is on the board there is no incentive to ever use a Raptor. Whereas in mine the incentive is that you might not only damage the Basestar, but send yourself to the Meditation Chamber.

Also having a location named Data-font is sorta like having a location called Keyboard. I prefer to either get rid of it, rename is Rebel C&C or I dunno, rename it Control Nexus (which was never used in the show to my knowledge, but at least it's different than Command and Pegasus CIC)
 
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Atomic Robo
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Here's a silly idea, tell me if it's completely dumb. Why not go the New Caprica route?

Have each location do something different for the Rebel Cylon and for normal Humans?

(For example, the Cylons might not ever want to let the humans actively use their Missile Batteries. But perhaps if you as an action succeed at a Difficulty 6 Politics/Tactics/Piloting/Treachery check (Something really easy) then the humans 'borrow' a nuke the admiral gets a nuke token?)
That's a super rough idea, and probably a bad idea for that location's human ability, but it's just to show you an example of how it could work.

Edit:
I could totally see Rebel Hybrid being:
Rebel Action: Draw a card.
Human Action: Discard a card to draw two cards. (These cards may be from outside your colors.) If you discard a non-Treachery card with a value of 4 or more, draw three cards instead.
 
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Allan Cybulskie
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TDaver wrote:
Frankly I don't like Cylon Leaders

And don't forget this is a 3rd non-human player, so it shouldn't cause much more duplicity than a sympathizer...


Well, in V14 my opinion was that the Rebel Cylon once revealed was just another human player, with a different mechanism. So, if that's what's being aimed for, then I would:

1) Use Cylon leaders, despite how much you dislike them.
2) Use a hidden Cylon loyalty.
3) Use a Rebel Cylon loyalty.
4) Use the mutineer (I'll talk about that in a moment).
5) And have the rest be normal humans. You'd have 4 different ways of playing in a 6 player game, which certainly adds variety.

I think part of the problem with everything -- including the idea of Cylons choosing their side -- is that too much is being driven by triggers. This is in part what made the Sympathizer unpopular. I wouldn't use a trigger for ANYTHING. Your mutineer would have a mutinous goal to achieve or resources or something else would happen (think a personal goal only nastier to encourage the mutineer to mutiny). Your Rebel would be a Rebel from the beginning, trying to convince the humans that it's the Rebel and the other Cylon isn't.

Using the Leaders means you have a little different mechanism from a normal Cylon, which is somewhat interesting. None of us did infiltrate, but we could have which adds more options.

But a lot of this depends on what you want from the variant. I'm not clear on that myself not having been involved from the beginning.

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David Turczi
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To InfoCynic: would making Data-font's action be "Once per turn move the rebel basestar to an adjacent area, then take another action" help?

To LL6869: Okay, I'll add the rolling+damaging thing. As for the Data-font name... How does Basestar Control sounds? too much like Basestar Bridge?

From battlestar wiki:
Quote:
The basestar has a central command and control center, likely located within the ship's central axis. Most or all of the seven humanoid Cylons stand at a control console that have interfaces for their data ports.
 
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Atomic Robo
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Basestar Control sounds fine.

I really think it would be best if the Rebel Cylon could move the Basestar from any location as a Move action. (Humans couldn't, they can just wander around the Basestar and do things.)

This removes the need for a location to do this and speeds up the interaction of the Rebel Basestar with the board to be comparable to that of a Viper.
 
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David Turczi
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Okay. What to do on Datafont/Basestar Control/Whatever?
 
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Atomic Robo
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That depends on if you're going to have modes or not. If not you can make it Raider bays. Otherwise.... gosh.

A few options.
1. Basestar Command can be activated to escort 2 (1?) Civilian ships in this space.
2. Convince Raider to Rebel - Target a space Sector with a Raider and a Civilian ship. Remove that Raider and Civilian ship from the board. (The Civilian is considered to have been escorted away.)
3. lots of options.

Not saying it should do all of that, but just some ideas.
 
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Korvin
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TDaver wrote:

As for the cylon being able to choose his side?
He can not WILLINGLY choose the humans.
A: If triggered he can choose to stay silent to remain cylon, he might get airlocked (and have a revelation )
B: If not triggered he can reveal and try to work so he rebels, but that takes effort, not a simple choice

So I don't think the cylon can easily jump ship. In fact the only skewed scenario I can see is (with Airlock damaged/destroyed) an unrevealed rebel sitting in the Brig hoping for a quick 3v3 cylon victory (before getting hit with an execute prisoner or something). And that is such a tiny corner case that for this alone I shouldn't complicate things with an additional "if x you may reveal, if x^2 you must reveal" and such.


Sorry, perhaps I don't get it correctly, but from my point of you near to the end of a game at least the 2 conditions ("less than 7 population" and "food+morale less than 9") are almost always fulfilled (the "12 Raider on Board" is without CFB extremely difficult and "3 damages" depends on the game), so the rebel cylon will be able to wait until the last jump cylon and switch then to the winning team. Or what did I got wrong?

The rules basestar rules are better than the old one, since I didn't liked the "basestar gets all(partial damage from Galactica". Basically the rebel cylon had to invest all his afford to hold his basestar together and therefore the old "battlestations" were pretty useless. This is much better with the new version.

Nevertheless, I think that the mechanism for which side the rebel cylon works/how he is restricted has to be the main point. How strong and complex you want to make the abilities of the rebel basestar is then just a balancing of the sides.
 
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Atomic Robo
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Asahi wrote:

Nevertheless, I think that the mechanism for which side the rebel cylon works/how he is restricted has to be the main point. How strong and complex you want to make the abilities of the rebel basestar is then just a balancing of the sides.

Well, how about my You are a Rebel Cylon card? It's simple, effective, and the inherent limitations are built in. (You're a human, but you can't use human locations, you can't use your OPT, you can't use your OPG, you only draw three cards.) That's a lot of restrictions, that's a lot of limitations, and I think is in line with the spirit of Sympathizer, which is to give the humans 'half' a team-mate to help them out.

If you wanted to put more of a fire under the Sympathizer's butt, you could also rule that the Rebel Basestar comes into play with one point of damage on it for each resource in the red when they reveal. So if the humans want to have a Rebel basestar that isn't a fireball at sleeper, they better keep those resources up! (Which is better than the current system of 'oh crap, make sure something hits red!' for Sympathizer.)
 
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David Turczi
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Asahi wrote:
Sorry, perhaps I don't get it correctly, but from my point of you near to the end of a game at least the 2 conditions ("less than 7 population" and "food+morale less than 9") are almost always fulfilled (the "12 Raider on Board" is without CFB extremely difficult and "3 damages" depends on the game), so the rebel cylon will be able to wait until the last jump cylon and switch then to the winning team. Or what did I got wrong?


Do you have ideas for any other kind of triggers? Which may or may not come to pass?

How about these:
-A human is executed (might not happen at all)
-There is more than one centurion on track (very game dependent)
-The President is in the brig (that feels stupid)
-nah I'm out of ideas
 
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David Turczi
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LL6869 wrote:
Well, how about my You are a Rebel Cylon card? It's simple, effective, and the inherent limitations are built in. (You're a human, but you can't use human locations, you can't use your OPT, you can't use your OPG, you only draw three cards.) That's a lot of restrictions, that's a lot of limitations, and I think is in line with the spirit of Sympathizer, which is to give the humans 'half' a team-mate to help them out.

If you wanted to put more of a fire under the Sympathizer's butt, you could also rule that the Rebel Basestar comes into play with one point of damage on it for each resource in the red when they reveal.


What's to stop a human-friendly rebel then from never revealing?
(on my card winning with cylons would stop him )
 
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Atomic Robo
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TDaver wrote:
LL6869 wrote:
Well, how about my You are a Rebel Cylon card? It's simple, effective, and the inherent limitations are built in. (You're a human, but you can't use human locations, you can't use your OPT, you can't use your OPG, you only draw three cards.) That's a lot of restrictions, that's a lot of limitations, and I think is in line with the spirit of Sympathizer, which is to give the humans 'half' a team-mate to help them out.

If you wanted to put more of a fire under the Sympathizer's butt, you could also rule that the Rebel Basestar comes into play with one point of damage on it for each resource in the red when they reveal.


What's to stop a human-friendly rebel then from never revealing?
(on my card winning with cylons would stop him )


Ooooh, good point. Aha! Right. Destruction of the Rebel Basestar does something really bad to the Humans. I think my original idea was every human drew Trauma and Treachery. So if they don't reveal and all four resources dip in the Red, that's four damage tokens, the Rebel Basestar is blown up without ever being revealed and stuff happens. Also of course we could add an 'if executed' clause onto the Rebel Cylon, causing something bad to happen if it's revealed. Or an 'if looked at, automatically reveal this card blah blah blah' and do something.

Just a couple ideas.
 
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David Turczi
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So should we hold a poll on "change side on trigger" vs "always human, penalty if late". Since I'm not THAT in love with my new loyalties, I'm willing to concede on this.

I'm not giving up the Indicator
 
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Atomic Robo
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There are also some advantages to being the Rebel Cylon in my version. For example they immediately leave the Brig and any time a Crisis or Effect would send them to the Brig, they're instead sent to the Meditation Chamber. This is an express get out of jail free card and means that if the Rebel is in the Brig he automatically has a strong reason to reveal, especially if he doesn't want to accumulate Trauma. It also alters some dynamics as the humans effectively have a 'Brig resistant' character other than Gaeta, who can help them out if they get into trouble.
 
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TDaver wrote:
I'm not giving up the Indicator

Boo! Hiss!
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David Turczi
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Caprica Six wasn't really Brig-resistant until the last few episodes

However this does solve the "what to do if rebel wants to reveal while in Brig" thingie...

Is there a penalty for executing either a revealed or unrevealed rebel in your version?




Also, I think I can put my finger on what I feel is the main difference.
Your version will ALWAYS be a 3.5 vs 2 nosymp. Mine can be a 3 vs 2.9 if the trigger is never triggered

I really think we just need better triggers.
 
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Atomic Robo
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TDaver wrote:
Caprica Six wasn't really Brig-resistant until the last few episodes
I totally know, this is a time when game mechanics beat out theme.

However this does solve the "what to do if rebel wants to reveal while in Brig" thingie...

TDaver wrote:

Is there a penalty for executing either a revealed or unrevealed rebel in your version?

Not yet ^.^ Basically an executed revealed sends them to Meditation Chamber (if the Basestar is in play) and the humans lose a morale like normal. I'm not sure we need more if we can balance the ship/drawbacks enough to make revealing a good idea.


TDaver wrote:

Also, I think I can put my finger on what I feel is the main difference.
Your version will ALWAYS be a 3.5 vs 2 nosymp. Mine can be a 3 vs 2.9 if the trigger is never triggered

I really think we just need better triggers.

Except this is the same as saying, "We really need to make a way so that this person knows they're going to switch sides near the end of the game, but isn't 100% sure." Which... isn't groovy. You're trying to control timing by making it either a random chance or an in game event, that's taking control out of the player's hands. I feel this is an inappropriate place for that. The mechanics just need to be balanced so that there is incentive but the benefit isn't overpoweringly in the human's favor.
 
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David Turczi
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LL6869 wrote:
Except this is the same as saying, "We really need to make a way so that this person knows they're going to switch sides near the end of the game, but isn't 100% sure." Which... isn't groovy. You're trying to control timing by making it either a random chance or an in game event, that's taking control out of the player's hands. I feel this is an inappropriate place for that. The mechanics just need to be balanced so that there is incentive but the benefit isn't overpoweringly in the human's favor.


Okay. Since I thought V7 was a good idea, I'll believe you on this one.

Now let's move onto making an A,B,C for Basestar Control.

a. Escort 2 civ in current space area
b. ?
c. ?
 
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Atomic Robo
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Alright Tdaver, here's my list of things I'm dead-set on changing your mind about:

Giving up passive bonuses for being in a certain 'mode.' This is extra book-keeping and is going to cause players at the table to go "Wait, no, that doesn't work right now because of this... or does it? Who has the rulebook?!"

Making changing the indicator a free action at the start of the Rebel's turn. Crap, if you're going to use it, don't make it a burden on the player to use your fancy feature.

Make it so that humans want to interact with the Rebel Basestar, but so that it isn't always the best option.
Cause... that would kinda suck?

Trim down your indicators to two modes. I dunno, three just seems like a lot. Maybe that's just me.

Just fair warning, those are my goals, letting you know so you can prepare counter arguments.
 
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