Today is my 14th birthday and it would be the best birthday present ever if you would vote no on gay marriage. I really feel bad for the kids who have two parents of the same gender. Even though some kids feel like it's fine, they have no idea what kind of wonderful experiences they miss out on. I don't want any more kids to get confused about what's right and OK. I really don't want to grow up in a world where marriage isn't such a special thing anymore. It's rather scary to think that when I grow up the legislator or the court can change the definition of any word they want. If they can change the definition of marriage, then they could change the definition of any word. People have the choice to be gay, but I don't want to be affected by their choice. People say that they were just born that way, but I've met really nice adults that did change, so please vote no on gay marriage. Thank you.
Here's one thing I don't get. What exactly the "wonderful experiences" that children of gay parents miss out on?
I like to exchange ideas but I have no interest in a pissing contest.
If you want me to review your game, just GM me and send me a copy. Abstracts, wargames and euros equally welcome. No party or dexterity games please.
What possible understanding of the issue could a 14 year old girl really have? Agree or disagree, she's unquestionably parroting what her parents have taught her.
What possible understanding of the issue could a 14 year old girl really have? Agree or disagree, she's unquestionably parroting what her parents have taught her.
Come now Moshe, she JUST turned 14. She should get whatever little wish her litte hateful heart wants.
What possible understanding of the issue could a 14 year old girl really have? Agree or disagree, she's unquestionably parroting what her parents have taught her.
Home schooled
Just stirring the pot a little, seeing as how there's very little to what is already just an awful story in so many ways.
I like to exchange ideas but I have no interest in a pissing contest.
If you want me to review your game, just GM me and send me a copy. Abstracts, wargames and euros equally welcome. No party or dexterity games please.
BagpipeDan wrote:
whac3 wrote:
What possible understanding of the issue could a 14 year old girl really have? Agree or disagree, she's unquestionably parroting what her parents have taught her.
Home schooled
Just stirring the pot a little, seeing as how there's very little to what is already just an awful story in so many ways.
She'd have ben taught the same attitudes at home if she went to public schools too.
What possible understanding of the issue could a 14 year old girl really have? Agree or disagree, she's unquestionably parroting what her parents have taught her.
Home schooled
Just stirring the pot a little, seeing as how there's very little to what is already just an awful story in so many ways.
She'd have ben taught the same attitudes at home if she went to public schools too.
And there met kids who had been taught other attitudes at home. Maybe even some with same-sex parents, seeing what they're like.
She also need to be taught the difference between gender and sex. As my boss—a world-famous geneticist—says, "Nouns have gender. People have sex...and enjoy it!"
]And there met kids who had been taught other attitudes at home. Maybe even some with same-sex parents, seeing what they're like.
There's this pretty nice quote from Mark Twain:
Mark Twain wrote:
“Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one’s lifetime.” —Mark Twain, 1857
Suburban America has shown me that it's pretty easy to have views that would not survive a trip across town, much less a trip to a different continent. While homeschooling is not inherently bad, there are some that do it to make sure their kids just get that prejudiced.
I'd not ban the practice because some parents use it to handicap their kids for life, but that doesn't mean I get a bit sad when I see examples of kids that have learned that critical thinking is not ok.
“Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one’s lifetime.” —Mark Twain, 1857
Suburban America has shown me that it's pretty easy to have views that would not survive a trip across town, much less a trip to a different continent. While homeschooling is not inherently bad, there are some that do it to make sure their kids just get that prejudiced.
Sure, but then you'd risk not always being right about everything.
Do you have any idea how inconvenient it is to not always be right about everything? It's really super handy - and seeing things that would change your worldview...ugggh. SO much of a drag!
I like to exchange ideas but I have no interest in a pissing contest.
If you want me to review your game, just GM me and send me a copy. Abstracts, wargames and euros equally welcome. No party or dexterity games please.
Mondainai wrote:
whac3 wrote:
BagpipeDan wrote:
whac3 wrote:
What possible understanding of the issue could a 14 year old girl really have? Agree or disagree, she's unquestionably parroting what her parents have taught her.
Home schooled
Just stirring the pot a little, seeing as how there's very little to what is already just an awful story in so many ways.
She'd have ben taught the same attitudes at home if she went to public schools too.
And there met kids who had been taught other attitudes at home. Maybe even some with same-sex parents, seeing what they're like.
and if she's like all the other home-schooled kids I've known she's already met plenty. Home-schooling doesn't mean isolated from the world nor other kids. Most home-schoolers get involved in local home-schooling groups whose membership is just as diverse as any school's-- often more so.
What possible understanding of the issue could a 14 year old girl really have? Agree or disagree, she's unquestionably parroting what her parents have taught her.
Home schooled
Just stirring the pot a little, seeing as how there's very little to what is already just an awful story in so many ways.
She'd have ben taught the same attitudes at home if she went to public schools too.
And there met kids who had been taught other attitudes at home. Maybe even some with same-sex parents, seeing what they're like.
Time for "Back in Yugoslavia" story...
You see, back in Yugoslavia, when I was a kid we had a fairly awesome school system. It taught us lots of facts and methods that kids here do not learn - unless they go to rather expensive private schools and I am forever grateful to our communists for setting it up (or for keeping it up from the old regime - whatever was the case).
Aside from teaching - school also had fairly open propaganda role. It was supposed to make us all good Communists and - even more importantly - it was supposed to promote "brotherhood and unity" this notion that all of us Yugoslavs are one happy family united by language and history with all this stupid national and religious divisions from the past being stupid and irrelevant. They made *great* effort to both teach this stuff and have kids meet as much as they can of the "other" Yugoslavs so as to bridge the atavistic nationalistic gaps.
By the time shit has hit the fan my generation was through good 9-10 years of this, entirely well meaning and fairly comprehensively implemented indoctrination. Older kids were through it for full 12 years etc...
This made it all the more depressing to see how absolutely in vain all this effort was. *As soon* as the official line was no longer brotherhood and unity all the kids started singing *exactly* same song as their parents. Those whose parents were "multiculturalists" and "common citizenship" types stayed with the brotherhood and unity line. Those whose folks were closet nationalists shed the 10+ years of common classes, excursions and most well meaning lectures faster then you can say "ancient hatreds". I do not exaggerate when I say that I do not know a *single* person of my generation whose politics - when the chips were down - were actually affected by the years and years of public school effort to make us into good citizens.
Lesson I took from it all is that if those guys can not do it - no public school in the world can possibly actually instil citizenship values in the kids. Given that, I never saw a point in actually having government run the schooling system.
Wait, wait, wait. She's 14 and she still hasn't figured out that language only has the meaning you put into it, making it infinitely malleable? That's the real story here.
You see, back in Yugoslavia, when I was a kid we had a fairly awesome school system. It taught us lots of facts and methods that kids here do not learn - unless they go to rather expensive private schools and I am forever grateful to our communists for setting it up (or for keeping it up from the old regime - whatever was the case).
Aside from teaching - school also had fairly open propaganda role. It was supposed to make us all good Communists and - even more importantly - it was supposed to promote "brotherhood and unity" this notion that all of us Yugoslavs are one happy family united by language and history with all this stupid national and religious divisions from the past being stupid and irrelevant. They made *great* effort to both teach this stuff and have kids meet as much as they can of the "other" Yugoslavs so as to bridge the atavistic nationalistic gaps.
By the time shit has hit the fan my generation was through good 9-10 years of this, entirely well meaning and fairly comprehensively implemented indoctrination. Older kids were through it for full 12 years etc...
This made it all the more depressing to see how absolutely in vain all this effort was. *As soon* as the official line was no longer brotherhood and unity all the kids started singing *exactly* same song as their parents. Those whose parents were "multiculturalists" and "common citizenship" types stayed with the brotherhood and unity line. Those whose folks were closet nationalists shed the 10+ years of common classes, excursions and most well meaning lectures faster then you can say "ancient hatreds". I do not exaggerate when I say that I do not know a *single* person of my generation whose politics - when the chips were down - were actually affected by the years and years of public school effort to make us into good citizens.
Lesson I took from it all is that if those guys can not do it - no public school in the world can possibly actually instil citizenship values in the kids. Given that, I never saw a point in actually having government run the schooling system.
"Did the method fix the problem?" is not the question. The question is "Did the method aggravate or mitigate the problem?".
You see, back in Yugoslavia, when I was a kid we had a fairly awesome school system. It taught us lots of facts and methods that kids here do not learn - unless they go to rather expensive private schools and I am forever grateful to our communists for setting it up (or for keeping it up from the old regime - whatever was the case).
Aside from teaching - school also had fairly open propaganda role. It was supposed to make us all good Communists and - even more importantly - it was supposed to promote "brotherhood and unity" this notion that all of us Yugoslavs are one happy family united by language and history with all this stupid national and religious divisions from the past being stupid and irrelevant. They made *great* effort to both teach this stuff and have kids meet as much as they can of the "other" Yugoslavs so as to bridge the atavistic nationalistic gaps.
By the time shit has hit the fan my generation was through good 9-10 years of this, entirely well meaning and fairly comprehensively implemented indoctrination. Older kids were through it for full 12 years etc...
This made it all the more depressing to see how absolutely in vain all this effort was. *As soon* as the official line was no longer brotherhood and unity all the kids started singing *exactly* same song as their parents. Those whose parents were "multiculturalists" and "common citizenship" types stayed with the brotherhood and unity line. Those whose folks were closet nationalists shed the 10+ years of common classes, excursions and most well meaning lectures faster then you can say "ancient hatreds". I do not exaggerate when I say that I do not know a *single* person of my generation whose politics - when the chips were down - were actually affected by the years and years of public school effort to make us into good citizens.
Lesson I took from it all is that if those guys can not do it - no public school in the world can possibly actually instil citizenship values in the kids. Given that, I never saw a point in actually having government run the schooling system.
"Did the method fix the problem?" is not the question. The question is "Did the method aggravate or mitigate the problem?".
It did neither. Method spent enormous amount of time, money and effort without any noticeable effect. All except the very oldest of our enthusiastic civil warriors went through this same - very progressive - attempt at good citizenship indoctrination. Almost every single butcher (and almost every single supporter of the butchery) on all sides, spent 12 years going to school which did its best to have him meet and befriend kids of different nationalities and appreciate the beauty of the cultural mosaic his country was.
It is difficult to imagine more comprehensive failure of the concept.
And - keep in mind - this was a school system which was *very* good at actually teaching stuff.
"Did the method fix the problem?" is not the question. The question is "Did the method aggravate or mitigate the problem?".
It did neither. Method spent enormous amount of time, money and effort without any noticeable effect. All except the very oldest of our enthusiastic civil warriors went through this same - very progressive - attempt at good citizenship indoctrination. Almost every single butcher (and almost every single supporter of the butchery) on all sides, spent 12 years going to school which did its best to have him meet and befriend kids of different nationalities and appreciate the beauty of the cultural mosaic his country was.
It is difficult to imagine more comprehensive failure of the concept.
And - keep in mind - this was a school system which was *very* good at actually teaching stuff.
I'm not saying you're wrong, because I clearly don't know enough. (I went to school with refugees my age from the whole area (except from Slovenia) but never came close to talk about this, except for the one night a Serbian bully wanted to beat me up for ridiculing him for his views on Croatians.) Out of curiosity: did you generally have mixed classes? I get the impression that you had your own areas, which meant that schools in themselves were rather homogeneous, and that those integration attempts were more of the "bussing" kind, having a fun sports day with the kids from the other part of town etc. But do correct me if I'm wrong.
But if I'm right, then your criticism does not make a case for home-schooling but rather the opposite - we're not worried about kids not being exposed to otherness, we're worried that the Mon-Fri 9-5 experience of daily bickering and cooperation, secret love and school break games, is the only thing that can make true integration happen, and even then, it's hardly "enough" (as I can tell from my own upbringing in a refugee haven).
“Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one’s lifetime.” —Mark Twain, 1857
Suburban America has shown me that it's pretty easy to have views that would not survive a trip across town, much less a trip to a different continent. While homeschooling is not inherently bad, there are some that do it to make sure their kids just get that prejudiced.
Sure, but then you'd risk not always being right about everything.
Do you have any idea how inconvenient it is to not always be right about everything? It's really super handy - and seeing things that would change your worldview...ugggh. SO much of a drag!
Of course.
Now, could you please offer up a list of beliefs and ideas that you hold despite thinking that you are wrong about them?
What possible understanding of the issue could a 14 year old girl really have? Agree or disagree, she's unquestionably parroting what her parents have taught her.
Home schooled
Just stirring the pot a little, seeing as how there's very little to what is already just an awful story in so many ways.
She'd have ben taught the same attitudes at home if she went to public schools too.
And there met kids who had been taught other attitudes at home. Maybe even some with same-sex parents, seeing what they're like.
Time for "Back in Yugoslavia" story...
You see, back in Yugoslavia, when I was a kid we had a fairly awesome school system. It taught us lots of facts and methods that kids here do not learn - unless they go to rather expensive private schools and I am forever grateful to our communists for setting it up (or for keeping it up from the old regime - whatever was the case).
Aside from teaching - school also had fairly open propaganda role. It was supposed to make us all good Communists and - even more importantly - it was supposed to promote "brotherhood and unity" this notion that all of us Yugoslavs are one happy family united by language and history with all this stupid national and religious divisions from the past being stupid and irrelevant. They made *great* effort to both teach this stuff and have kids meet as much as they can of the "other" Yugoslavs so as to bridge the atavistic nationalistic gaps.
By the time shit has hit the fan my generation was through good 9-10 years of this, entirely well meaning and fairly comprehensively implemented indoctrination. Older kids were through it for full 12 years etc...
This made it all the more depressing to see how absolutely in vain all this effort was. *As soon* as the official line was no longer brotherhood and unity all the kids started singing *exactly* same song as their parents. Those whose parents were "multiculturalists" and "common citizenship" types stayed with the brotherhood and unity line. Those whose folks were closet nationalists shed the 10+ years of common classes, excursions and most well meaning lectures faster then you can say "ancient hatreds". I do not exaggerate when I say that I do not know a *single* person of my generation whose politics - when the chips were down - were actually affected by the years and years of public school effort to make us into good citizens.
Lesson I took from it all is that if those guys can not do it - no public school in the world can possibly actually instil citizenship values in the kids. Given that, I never saw a point in actually having government run the schooling system.
Scuze me, as I am about to say something which will no doubt be revealed as ill thought out, but those 'ationalities' also did not come falling out of the sky. When the concept arose very specific efforts were made to creaty distinct nationalities. Often these efforts involved bringing folks up too speed with the fact that the belonged to a certain group, be they Belgians, or Poles, because they did not realise it before. Education was but one tool in that box, and it is a proces which has met with astounding succes in many cases: the USA being an obvious example.
“Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one’s lifetime.” —Mark Twain, 1857
Suburban America has shown me that it's pretty easy to have views that would not survive a trip across town, much less a trip to a different continent. While homeschooling is not inherently bad, there are some that do it to make sure their kids just get that prejudiced.
Sure, but then you'd risk not always being right about everything.
Do you have any idea how inconvenient it is to not always be right about everything? It's really super handy - and seeing things that would change your worldview...ugggh. SO much of a drag!
Of course.
Now, could you please offer up a list of beliefs and ideas that you hold despite thinking that you are wrong about them?
That's not quite right, the correct question should be something like "could you please offer up a list of beliefs and ideas that you used to hold but then changed your mind about after being shown some flaw?" That seems closer to the spirit of the post.
"Did the method fix the problem?" is not the question. The question is "Did the method aggravate or mitigate the problem?".
It did neither. Method spent enormous amount of time, money and effort without any noticeable effect. All except the very oldest of our enthusiastic civil warriors went through this same - very progressive - attempt at good citizenship indoctrination. Almost every single butcher (and almost every single supporter of the butchery) on all sides, spent 12 years going to school which did its best to have him meet and befriend kids of different nationalities and appreciate the beauty of the cultural mosaic his country was.
It is difficult to imagine more comprehensive failure of the concept.
And - keep in mind - this was a school system which was *very* good at actually teaching stuff.
I'm not saying you're wrong, because I clearly don't know enough. (I went to school with refugees my age from the whole area (except from Slovenia) but never came close to talk about this, except for the one night a Serbian bully wanted to beat me up for ridiculing him for his views on Croatians.) Out of curiosity: did you generally have mixed classes? I get the impression that you had your own areas, which meant that schools in themselves were rather homogeneous, and that those integration attempts were more of the "bussing" kind, having a fun sports day with the kids from the other part of town etc. But do correct me if I'm wrong.
But if I'm right, then your criticism does not make a case for home-schooling but rather the opposite - we're not worried about kids not being exposed to otherness, we're worried that the Mon-Fri 9-5 experience of daily bickering and cooperation, secret love and school break games, is the only thing that can make true integration happen, and even then, it's hardly "enough" (as I can tell from my own upbringing in a refugee haven).
We *were* mixed up. Our cities were mixed up and schools quite consciously reflected that. In places where there was less local mixing they did bussing, common field trips and such - but in those cases it would not be "other part of town" but other part of the country - wherever even remotely possible though they did try to create very mixed everyday school environments. My experience, for one, (and one I enjoyed - given *my* family philosophy) was that of extremely mixed schools and classes all the way through.
It is not a question of it not being "enough" it was not effective at all. Without changing the opinions of the families trying to influence politics/civics of a 12 or 13 or 14 year old is as vain as pissing into the wind.
My opinion on homeschooling is therefore based purely on the quality of learning kids receive. Given how impotent public schools are at their purported purpose of creating "common citizenship" only thing to measure them on against home-schools (or private, or denominational or what have you) is on their educational outcomes.
