Chad Ellis
United States
Brookline
Massachusetts
-
Psauberer wrote: XanderF wrote: hibikir wrote: Mark Twain wrote: “Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one’s lifetime.” —Mark Twain, 1857 Suburban America has shown me that it's pretty easy to have views that would not survive a trip across town, much less a trip to a different continent. While homeschooling is not inherently bad, there are some that do it to make sure their kids just get that prejudiced. Sure, but then you'd risk not always being right about everything. Do you have any idea how inconvenient it is to not always be right about everything? It's really super handy - and seeing things that would change your worldview...ugggh. SO much of a drag! Of course. Now, could you please offer up a list of beliefs and ideas that you hold despite thinking that you are wrong about them?
How is that an on-topic comeback? Xander seems to be writing about how people who live in an insular environment where there views aren't challenged have unjustified confidence in the correctness of their views.
Naturally people don't simultaneously believe X and ~X. The difference is about meta-beliefs, e.g. "How confident are you that all your beliefs are correct?" or "For how many of your beliefs do you think there are differing viewpoints that are valid?"
-
Bojan Ramadanovic
Canada
Vancouver
BC
-
Venga2 wrote: bramadan wrote: Mondainai wrote: whac3 wrote: BagpipeDan wrote: whac3 wrote: What possible understanding of the issue could a 14 year old girl really have? Agree or disagree, she's unquestionably parroting what her parents have taught her. Home schooled  Just stirring the pot a little, seeing as how there's very little to what is already just an awful story in so many ways. She'd have ben taught the same attitudes at home if she went to public schools too. And there met kids who had been taught other attitudes at home. Maybe even some with same-sex parents, seeing what they're like. Time for "Back in Yugoslavia" story... You see, back in Yugoslavia, when I was a kid we had a fairly awesome school system. It taught us lots of facts and methods that kids here do not learn - unless they go to rather expensive private schools and I am forever grateful to our communists for setting it up (or for keeping it up from the old regime - whatever was the case). Aside from teaching - school also had fairly open propaganda role. It was supposed to make us all good Communists and - even more importantly - it was supposed to promote "brotherhood and unity" this notion that all of us Yugoslavs are one happy family united by language and history with all this stupid national and religious divisions from the past being stupid and irrelevant. They made *great* effort to both teach this stuff and have kids meet as much as they can of the "other" Yugoslavs so as to bridge the atavistic nationalistic gaps. By the time shit has hit the fan my generation was through good 9-10 years of this, entirely well meaning and fairly comprehensively implemented indoctrination. Older kids were through it for full 12 years etc... This made it all the more depressing to see how absolutely in vain all this effort was. *As soon* as the official line was no longer brotherhood and unity all the kids started singing *exactly* same song as their parents. Those whose parents were "multiculturalists" and "common citizenship" types stayed with the brotherhood and unity line. Those whose folks were closet nationalists shed the 10+ years of common classes, excursions and most well meaning lectures faster then you can say "ancient hatreds". I do not exaggerate when I say that I do not know a *single* person of my generation whose politics - when the chips were down - were actually affected by the years and years of public school effort to make us into good citizens. Lesson I took from it all is that if those guys can not do it - no public school in the world can possibly actually instil citizenship values in the kids. Given that, I never saw a point in actually having government run the schooling system. Scuze me, as I am about to say something which will no doubt be revealed as ill thought out, but those 'ationalities' also did not come falling out of the sky. When the concept arose very specific efforts were made to creaty distinct nationalities. Often these efforts involved bringing folks up too speed with the fact that the belonged to a certain group, be they Belgians, or Poles, because they did not realise it before. Education was but one tool in that box, and it is a proces which has met with astounding succes in many cases: the USA being an obvious example.
When the nationalities were created in 19th century - they were not created by appealing to the 13-year olds. It was a significant intellectual movement with grounding in high culture, intelligentsia, politicians, writers etc... Target of the indoctrination were most certainly adults first with kids distant second.
Insofar as national movements were targeted at "youth", youth in question were of early university age (at most late high-school) and they were targeted through extra-curricular "athletic" movements.
-
Chad Ellis
United States
Brookline
Massachusetts
-
I think a 15 year old beats a 14 year old.
Or maybe I just agree with her:
http://thinkprogress.org/lgbt/2012/02/02/417575/15-year-old-...
-
Tim Seitz
United States
Glen Allen
VA
Like water spilled on the ground, which cannot be recovered, so we must die. But God does not take away life; instead, he devises ways so that a banished person may not remain estranged from him. 2 Sam 14:14
-
Chad_Ellis wrote:
Ah, I was at a loss for why all the bitter nerd rage. Now I get it.
-
Adam Alleman
United States
Denver
Colorado
-
Thank you for this. Made this thread worth reading.
Arcangeli wrote:
-
Learn to swim, learn to swim, learn to swim, learn to swim..
United States
Cleveland Heights
Ohio
-
Daddys_Home wrote:
I'm not ashamed to admit that your username creeps me out a little.
-
Xander Fulton
United States
Portland
Oregon
-
bramadan wrote: *As soon* as the official line was no longer brotherhood and unity all the kids started singing *exactly* same song as their parents. Those whose parents were "multiculturalists" and "common citizenship" types stayed with the brotherhood and unity line. Those whose folks were closet nationalists shed the 10+ years of common classes, excursions and most well meaning lectures faster then you can say "ancient hatreds".
But that's not really a surprise, given that we know it takes at least 3 generations of such indoctrination in order to materially change previously held believes. IE., a bit closer to 100 years is needed. 10 won't do it - I don't think anyone would have expected it to for the reason you note...the parents only had the previous opinions to work from, so of course their kids would be too exposed to that.
Once you have a group of kids in school getting the same drill who everyone they have met in life all the way to their last living grandparents had the same routine...well, you've got a much more stable system, then.
But these things take time. A lot of time.
-
Adam Alleman
United States
Denver
Colorado
-
Never heard that before, but FYI:Item for Geeklist "How did you choose/get your username (possibly with bonus info on avatar)"
TheChin! wrote: Daddys_Home wrote: I'm not ashamed to admit that your username creeps me out a little.
-
Bojan Ramadanovic
Canada
Vancouver
BC
-
XanderF wrote: bramadan wrote: *As soon* as the official line was no longer brotherhood and unity all the kids started singing *exactly* same song as their parents. Those whose parents were "multiculturalists" and "common citizenship" types stayed with the brotherhood and unity line. Those whose folks were closet nationalists shed the 10+ years of common classes, excursions and most well meaning lectures faster then you can say "ancient hatreds".
But that's not really a surprise, given that we know it takes at least 3 generations of such indoctrination in order to materially change previously held believes. IE., a bit closer to 100 years is needed. 10 won't do it - I don't think anyone would have expected it to for the reason you note...the parents only had the previous opinions to work from, so of course their kids would be too exposed to that. Once you have a group of kids in school getting the same drill who everyone they have met in life all the way to their last living grandparents had the same routine...well, you've got a much more stable system, then. But these things take time. A lot of time.
I agree that this is probably what it would take.
Given that in the west such *totality* of civic indoctrination can never be achieved (as you will always have *some* denominational and other private schools) actually attempting to create it through public education is again - aforementioned - pissing into the wind.
Best thing to do in my mind is to accept the diversity - including the existence of the bigots such as the little girl in the example - and offer them a compromise along the lines of "we will not try and impose our morality on you as long as you do not try and impose yours on us".
You would be surprised as to how many of them would take it.
Grand bargain I would offer to the social conservatives is: you can send your kids to school which does not teach evolution and does not try to make them into little liberals (annoyingly but ineffectually). You can preach whatever you want about gays, women or whatever is the disliked group dejour in your churches - but you lay off trying to make laws restricting what gays (and others) may or may not do in matters that do not impact you directly.
Pretty much any western state these days is not a single society and is not informed (beyond very basic matters) by the same set of morals - it is multiple societies sharing the same state and laws therefore need to be crafted *exclusively* to enable co-existence rather then to enforce morals of one party or the other. Sooner we understand this sooner we can end the culture wars.
-
Xander Fulton
United States
Portland
Oregon
-
bramadan wrote: I agree that this is probably what it would take.
Given that in the west such *totality* of civic indoctrination can never be achieved (as you will always have *some* denominational and other private schools) actually attempting to create it through public education is again - aforementioned - pissing into the wind.
Oh, I disagree.
In fact, we've done it at least once - the African-American minority in the US was popularly believed to be literally inferior to whites for a very long time. Indeed, even in the non-slave-holding North pre-Civil War, it was largely held that blacks were simply inferior...even if how the South treated them was entirely immoral, that didn't mean they were really equal to whites.
Even up to WW2, there was still fundamental bias over race that manifested in sometimes odd ways (for example, black sailors were frequently assigned night watches in the Navy due to the common belief that they could see better at night). It wasn't really until the civil rights movement of the 1960s that we finally decided to FORCE the issue at the Federal level and essentially have mandatory indoctrination that "yeah, guys, we really are equal - seriously, for real this time".
And we do still have white-vs-black racism today, of course...but it's only been 50 years, and already its rarer and socially unacceptable. Given another 50 years of effectively top-down indoctrination of "all races=equal", I believe it will be gone entirely. (As long as we stay focused on wiping it out, of course)
-
Bojan Ramadanovic
Canada
Vancouver
BC
-
XanderF wrote: bramadan wrote: I agree that this is probably what it would take.
Given that in the west such *totality* of civic indoctrination can never be achieved (as you will always have *some* denominational and other private schools) actually attempting to create it through public education is again - aforementioned - pissing into the wind.
Oh, I disagree. In fact, we've done it at least once - the African-American minority in the US was popularly believed to be literally inferior to whites for a very long time. Indeed, even in the non-slave-holding North pre-Civil War, it was largely held that blacks were simply inferior...even if how the South treated them was entirely immoral, that didn't mean they were really equal to whites. Even up to WW2, there was still fundamental bias over race that manifested in sometimes odd ways (for example, black sailors were frequently assigned night watches in the Navy due to the common belief that they could see better at night). It wasn't really until the civil rights movement of the 1960s that we finally decided to FORCE the issue at the Federal level and essentially have mandatory indoctrination that "yeah, guys, we really are equal - seriously, for real this time". And we do still have white-vs-black racism today, of course...but it's only been 50 years, and already its rarer and socially unacceptable. Given another 50 years of effectively top-down indoctrination of "all races=equal", I believe it will be gone entirely. (As long as we stay focused on wiping it out, of course)
But this was a different sort of change. Civil rights movement did much more to change the mind of the (vast majority) of parents then it did to change the kids. It was, again, an intellectual movement aimed at the adults and spearheaded by writers, journalists and other (adult) opinion makers. Desegregation of schools was a marker of a success of the civil rights movement - not its ultimate cause.
My point is that the kids politics are incredibly malleable. So much so that no matter what you try to do with them you will not form a lasting impression that their parents can not easily re-mould to fit their view of the world (as long as kids actually even remotely like/trust their parents). If you want to influence politics/civics of your nation you have to work with people who actually *have* politics/civics which is to say - with adults.
-
Josh Adelson
United States
State College
Pennsylvania
Grata
Bastard of Internet Ridicule
-
whac3 wrote: What possible understanding of the issue could a 14 year old girl really have? Agree or disagree, she's unquestionably parroting what her parents have taught her.
Her GAY parents.
-
Melanie M
United States
California
-
MisterCranky wrote: whac3 wrote: What possible understanding of the issue could a 14 year old girl really have? Agree or disagree, she's unquestionably parroting what her parents have taught her. Her GAY parents.
it's the 15 year old with gay parents, not the 14 year old.
-
Not Just Wrong- SPECTACULARLY WRONG.
Spain
Texas
-
Melanieshaman wrote: MisterCranky wrote: whac3 wrote: What possible understanding of the issue could a 14 year old girl really have? Agree or disagree, she's unquestionably parroting what her parents have taught her. Her GAY parents. it's the 15 year old with gay parents, not the 14 year old.
PROOF!! PROOF I say, that Parents INDOCTRINATE their children!!!!
*LOL*
But I bemused. So when the 14 year old with social conservative parents is used for a political stunt, its seen as proof that religious parents indoctrinate their children into merely parroting their beliefs.
But the 15 year old, being used in the very same manner, just for the other side of the issue, is merely starting her mind and should be held up as a model of how the youth of today are so incredibly open minded in their civic nature.
*lol*
Personally, I think that both parents are just using their children as props for political stunts.
Darilian
-
Matthew Tadyshak
United States
Allen
Texas
-
MyTwoCents wrote: whac3 wrote: Mondainai wrote: whac3 wrote: BagpipeDan wrote: whac3 wrote: What possible understanding of the issue could a 14 year old girl really have? Agree or disagree, she's unquestionably parroting what her parents have taught her. Home schooled Just stirring the pot a little, seeing as how there's very little to what is already just an awful story in so many ways. She'd have ben taught the same attitudes at home if she went to public schools too. And there met kids who had been taught other attitudes at home. Maybe even some with same-sex parents, seeing what they're like. and if she's like all the other home-schooled kids I've known she's already met plenty. Home-schooling doesn't mean isolated from the world nor other kids. Most home-schoolers get involved in local home-schooling groups whose membership is just as diverse as any school's-- often more so. Except everyone involved is home schooled, and if you don't recognise that that self selects the group, you're deluding yourself
-
Adam Alleman
United States
Denver
Colorado
-
Darilian wrote: Personally, I think that both parents are just using their children as props for political stunts.
Darilian
I use my kids as props all the time. Usually for cheap political stunts. Should I not be doing that? They like the attention and I like pandering to the a-holes that eat it up.
-
quelf elf
Spain
North Pole
-
NBAfan wrote: You are deluding yourself if you think all home schoolers are sheltered fools.
FTFY.
And you are deluding yourself if you think many are not. Almost every time I've seen religion given as the primary reason for home schooling, the parents are trying to prevent their kids from being exposed to certain ideas.
OP: Teenagers tend to be fucking idiots. Why the rest of us pay any attention to what Justin Bieber/Spongebob/McDonald's fans think is beyond me.
-
Ed Bradley
United Kingdom
Haverhill
Suffolk
The best things in life aren't things.
-
Darilian wrote: Melanieshaman wrote: MisterCranky wrote: whac3 wrote: What possible understanding of the issue could a 14 year old girl really have? Agree or disagree, she's unquestionably parroting what her parents have taught her. Her GAY parents. it's the 15 year old with gay parents, not the 14 year old. PROOF!! PROOF I say, that Parents INDOCTRINATE their children!!!! *LOL* But I bemused. So when the 14 year old with social conservative parents is used for a political stunt, its seen as proof that religious parents indoctrinate their children into merely parroting their beliefs. But the 15 year old, being used in the very same manner, just for the other side of the issue, is merely starting her mind and should be held up as a model of how the youth of today are so incredibly open minded in their civic nature. *lol* Personally, I think that both parents are just using their children as props for political stunts. Darilian
Anyone listening to the average teenager's opinions about ANYTHING other than pop music or teen fashions gets everything they deserve.
An indulgent nod and a "that's lovely, dear" is all the response they need.
-
Huitho i'ruith. Hannon le.
Netherlands
Groningen
Groningen
-
Quote: Quote: I really feel bad for the kids who have two parents of the same gender.
I feel bad for her having her parents.
I once saw another video of a girl who made a public statement saying she wasn't going to have sex before marriage. She even signed a document!
Everyone acted like it was her own idea.
Poor kids. All messed up.
-
Melanie M
United States
California
-
yep, AND it sure sounded like that 15 year old FELT was she was saying, it was obviously not rehearsed like the 14 year old's speech.
-
Phil Standen
United Kingdom
Hove
East Sussex
Duke say "play games"
-
The Message wrote: Wait, wait, wait. She's 14 and she still hasn't figured out that language only has the meaning you put into it, making it infinitely malleable? That's the real story here.
You mean like changing the word "Gay" from "happy and free" to "evil and puppy-killing"?
-
Moshe Callen
Israel
Jerusalem
I like to exchange ideas but I have no interest in a pissing contest.
If you want me to review your game, just GM me and send me a copy. Abstracts, wargames and euros equally welcome. No party or dexterity games please.
-
Melanieshaman wrote: yep, AND it sure sounded like that 15 year old FELT was she was saying, it was obviously not rehearsed like the 14 year old's speech.
I doubt either speech was rehearsed word for word. I also have no doubt both are parroting ideas they don't yet full understand because they just don't and can't have enough life experience and maturity.
-
Chad Ellis
United States
Brookline
Massachusetts
-
Darilian wrote: But I bemused. So when the 14 year old with social conservative parents is used for a political stunt, its seen as proof that religious parents indoctrinate their children into merely parroting their beliefs.
But the 15 year old, being used in the very same manner, just for the other side of the issue, is merely starting her mind and should be held up as a model of how the youth of today are so incredibly open minded in their civic nature.
I must have missed it. Who said that?
-
Lawson
United States
Greenville
South Carolina
-
whac3 wrote: Melanieshaman wrote: yep, AND it sure sounded like that 15 year old FELT was she was saying, it was obviously not rehearsed like the 14 year old's speech. I doubt either speech was rehearsed word for word. I also have no doubt both are parroting ideas they don't yet full understand because they just don't and can't have enough life experience and maturity.
Here's one difference, though: The 15 year old is living in a family that is directly affected by the legal treatment of same-sex marriage; the 14 year old is not.
-
Not Just Wrong- SPECTACULARLY WRONG.
Spain
Texas
-
Sorry-
I don't see how the opinions of a 14 year old saying how nice it would be if there weren't legalized gay marriage are worse than the opinions of a 15 year old saying that gay marriage is fine.
They're both the subjective, personal opinions of minors. As such, either they're both valid, or neither are valid.
It's a minor issue, sure. The only reason I bring it up is that it illustrates the extent to which that people will find political stunts that supports their 'side' as 'acceptable', while when the 'other' does the very same thing- use a child for to support a political argument'- its just fine and dandy.
Whatever. Just don't whine to me when political discourse gets nasty.
Darilian
-
|
|
