Scott Moore
England
Birmingham
Playtesters wanted!
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SUPPORT DEMOCRACY IN HUNGARY!
BOYCOTT THE ORBÁN REGIME
WRITE TO YOUR MEMBER OF CONGRESS/PARLIAMENT URGING HIM OR HER TO PUT PRESSURE ON THE HUNGARIAN GOVERNMENT
SAY NO TO DICTATORSHIP!
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J
United States
San Diego
California
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Moved to RSP
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DORGON
United States
Round Rock
Texas
Entertainment for those who don't think young & don't think old
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I guess I need more context. Was he not voted in as Prime Minister by a majority vote?
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Ed Bradley
United Kingdom
Haverhill
Suffolk
The best things in life aren't things.
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MWChapel wrote: I guess I need more context. Was he not voted in as Prime Minister by a majority vote?
Yes but I hear since taking power he's been dismantling the safeguards of the state i.e. changing the rules on judge appointments, reducing safeguards against corruption and so on.
The perilous financial situation also makes Hungary vulnerable.
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Англичанин або Англiєць?
Germany
Bremen
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Fwing wrote: MWChapel wrote: I guess I need more context. Was he not voted in as Prime Minister by a majority vote? Yes but I hear since taking power he's been dismantling the safeguards of the state i.e. changing the rules on judge appointments, reducing safeguards against corruption and so on. The perilous financial situation also makes Hungary vulnerable.
Plus:
* a new nationalist constitution that raises the majority needed in certain policy areas to 2/3rds (which the ruling party currently has) so that future governments will have little chance to change their current policies;
* an election law that is essentially gerrymandering to make it harder to bring an alternative government to power;
* a media law turning the state media into a party organ and putting (in practice) restrictions on the independent media with the threat of punitive fines for imbalanced reporting (as defined by cronies of the ruling party);
* ending the independence of the central bank.
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DORGON
United States
Round Rock
Texas
Entertainment for those who don't think young & don't think old
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Fwing wrote: MWChapel wrote: I guess I need more context. Was he not voted in as Prime Minister by a majority vote? Yes but I hear since taking power he's been dismantling the safeguards of the state i.e. changing the rules on judge appointments, reducing safeguards against corruption and so on. The perilous financial situation also makes Hungary vulnerable.
So they changed the constitution that was in place with something new. Was it "passed" legally within the boundaries of their previous Constitution? I guess before we start pointing fingers to "dictatorship", we'd first have to see some sort of coup against the original government in place. The Wikipedia read is not an easy read. But it sounds like the current government did all these changes within the constitutional boundaries allowed to them. Granted all those changes might create a dangerous territory, but I'd like to understand more than just talking points before screaming "fascist!"
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Англичанин або Англiєць?
Germany
Bremen
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MWChapel wrote: So they changed the constitution that was in place with something new. Was it "passed" legally within the boundaries of their previous Constitution? I guess before we start pointing fingers to "dictatorship", we'd first have to see some sort of coup against the original government in place. The Wikipedia read is not an easy read. But it sounds like the current government did all these changes within the constitutional boundaries allowed to them. Granted all those changes might create a dangerous territory, but I'd like to understand more than just talking points before screaming "fascist!"
Well, no one has screamed "fascist".
With a 2/3rds parliamentary majority Fidesz has managed to impose a range of constitutional and legal changes that massively reduces pluralism and goes a long way to institutionalise their power and beliefs even if they do lose the next election.
They may have done this legally, but that hardly means that one should just sit back and let it happen. Dictatorship results not simply (or even at all) from how a government comes to power but from how it exercises it.
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Víctor Pérez
Other-Africa
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I'm not sure what is more appaling, if the proto-totalitarian measures of Orbán himself or the lack of international and European response. If the rethoric he used and the business interest he threatened were different, foreign newspapers would be calling him a dictator and denouncing his abuses daily.
It looks like, as always, all dictators are equal, but some dictators are more equal than others.
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post-Essen syndrom
Sweden
Stockholm
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Hitler came to power through democratic elections. A lot of dictators did.
I heard Orbán changed the head of the national theater (or opera?), installing a new hardline conservative, who'll make sure no more "decadent" plays are set up.
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Англичанин або Англiєць?
Germany
Bremen
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HeinzGuderian wrote: I'm not sure what is more appaling, if the proto-totalitarian measures of Orbán himself or the lack of international and European response. If the rethoric he used and the business interest he threatened were different, foreign newspapers would be calling him a dictator and denouncing his abuses daily.
It looks like, as always, all dictators are equal, but some dictators are more equal than others.
Well, the EU is making rumbling noises, but at least some of that is to do with financial questions, which might in turn prove your point... I've seen some stuff in the German press and TV, but precious little compared to how dangerous it is.
Worse than that though is the active attempt by this British paper to defend Orban.
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László Horváth
Hungary
Veszprém
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Thank You, Michael, to try to seek information before making any judgements. It's hard to find really independend information though, and since I am hungarian, I won't be one either, as I might be more simpathizing with one party or the other. (Also, if media is biased, then I can get incorrect informations)
But, I say that I don't feel any less comfortable with the current government than the previous ones, and not afraid of losing democracy.
It seems that Orbán walks a thin line, but I feel that the foreign politicians are blowing up the whole thing, and the reasons behind are rather economic and political than real worries about our people.
E.g. the state media was always a party organ in the last 20 (60?) years, but until now, none of the foreigners worried about it.
So, some points are unfortunately valid (like trying to seise the power for longer time), but many points are just political attacks against the governing party.
Part of the story is, that the previous ruling party was so deeply corrupt, that not only did they stole money, but meanwhile they ruined our country almost beyond repair under the idea of "democracy". (The financial situation mentioned above are inherited from them.)
So, if this can be done in a democracy, then many people are fed up with that. Considering this, judging the current party corrupt sounds rediculous. (Although I'm sure they are, to some extent)
To Your question: There were no coup, all the changes are valid according to our laws.
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Англичанин або Англiєць?
Germany
Bremen
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horlaci wrote: It seems that Orbán walks a thin line, but I feel that the foreign politicians are blowing up the whole thing, and the reasons behind are rather economic and political than real worries about our people.
I'm hearing barely any complaints from politicians in Europe--I'm sure there was far more outcry when Jörg Haider got into government in Austria over a decade ago.
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Jasper B
Netherlands
Leiden
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Salo sila wrote: horlaci wrote: It seems that Orbán walks a thin line, but I feel that the foreign politicians are blowing up the whole thing, and the reasons behind are rather economic and political than real worries about our people. I'm hearing barely any complaints from politicians in Europe--I'm sure there was far more outcry when Jörg Haider got into government in Austria over a decade ago.
Salo, can you link to some sources that go into more detail over what exactly are the offenses of Orban and Fidesz? I keep hearing the same complaints about the constitution and the media but without more detail the defenders of Orban do seem to make some sense.
And I believe Laslo is correct in that the previous government fucked up big time. Not that, that excuses Orban, but it may go some way to explaining his support.
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Jasper B
Netherlands
Leiden
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The European Parliament is funny in this regard as well. The EU party too which Fidesz belongs refuses to speak out against them, just as they refused to criticize Berlusconi when he was openly abusing his power.
Sad really.Did I say funny? I mean sad.
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Англичанин або Англiєць?
Germany
Bremen
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Venga2 wrote: Salo, can you link to some sources that go into more detail over what exactly are the offenses of Orban and Fidesz? I keep hearing the same complaints about the constitution and the media but without more detail the defenders of Orban do seem to make some sense.
Here's an appeal by thirteen Hungarian intellectuals that puts forward the main charges regarding the constitution, media, judiciary and electoral law.
For more detail, here's a thorough analysis of the deficiencies of the constitution by a Hungarian law professor.
Obviously, the first text is a political statement, but it summarises the accusations well. The second, however, is a very sober (and sobering!) academic analysis.
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Scott Moore
England
Birmingham
Playtesters wanted!
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MWChapel wrote: I guess I need more context. Was he not voted in as Prime Minister by a majority vote?
Yes, by a slim majority. That doesn't give him a mandate to change the constitution and dismantle the structures of democracy (judiciary, independent media, constitutional court). Especially, as he explicitly stated before his election that he would NOT change the constitution.
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Scott Moore
England
Birmingham
Playtesters wanted!
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No one has screamed fascist. Indeed, no one has yet called Orbán a dictator. But everything he has done since being elected seems designed to enable him to become one, if he believes he cannot retain power through legitimate means. Hungary is being taken to court by the European Union because the new constitution and the new media law are incompatible with 'fundamental European values'.
As far as I know, Putin has done everything by the book. Yet, if not a dictator, he is very close to being one. All achieved within the framework of the Russian constitution. The same applies to Hugo Chavez of Venezuela. Some people are talking about the "putinization of Hungary" or are comparing Orbán to Chavez. Even a would-be-dictator or a populist demagogue is a dangerous precedent for a member state of the European Union. I hope we'll never see a true dictator emerge in the heart of Europe!
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Scott Moore
England
Birmingham
Playtesters wanted!
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horlaci wrote: Thank You, Michael, to try to seek information before making any judgements. It's hard to find really independend information though, and since I am hungarian, I won't be one either, as I might be more simpathizing with one party or the other. (Also, if media is biased, then I can get incorrect informations)
But, I say that I don't feel any less comfortable with the current government than the previous ones, and not afraid of losing democracy.
It seems that Orbán walks a thin line, but I feel that the foreign politicians are blowing up the whole thing, and the reasons behind are rather economic and political than real worries about our people.
E.g. the state media was always a party organ in the last 20 (60?) years, but until now, none of the foreigners worried about it.
So, some points are unfortunately valid (like trying to seise the power for longer time), but many points are just political attacks against the governing party.
Part of the story is, that the previous ruling party was so deeply corrupt, that not only did they stole money, but meanwhile they ruined our country almost beyond repair under the idea of "democracy". (The financial situation mentioned above are inherited from them.)
So, if this can be done in a democracy, then many people are fed up with that. Considering this, judging the current party corrupt sounds rediculous. (Although I'm sure they are, to some extent)
László - you are missing the key points behind the international criticism of the Orbán government.
Foreigners are not any more worried about the Hungarian state media then in the past. What they ARE worried about is the non-state media. In the past decade there was always at some measure of independent media in Hungary that could criticise the government (especially during the MSZP administration, the criticism within Hungary was very strong and loud!). What Orbán has done is to increase the ability of the state to silence the independent media. That is surely the only reason for the new media law - at any point in the future, at a stroke of his pen, he could dismantle the independent media and silence opposition to his regime. He has not done so yet. But that does not mean you should not be worried. Do you trust this one man so much that you are comfortable with the idea of the very existence of Hungarian democracy resting in his hands?
Yes, the previous government in Hungary mismanaged the economy, allowed the national debt to spiral, and engaged in a high enough level of corruption to bring the whole political class into even more disrepute than they previously enjoyed. This partly explains why Orbán was elected into power. It does not in any way excuse what he is doing - he should be repairing the damage and not making it even worse.
I don't think anyone outside of Hungary is particularly worried about Orbán's corruption. We are used to the idea of corrupt politicians in the new Member States and, indeed, in some of the old ones. What we ARE worried about is his major changes to institutions that are vital to democracy in any country. Institutions that need strengthening and not weakening. I refer to the constitutional court, the media council, the judiciary etc.
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Scott Moore
England
Birmingham
Playtesters wanted!
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Salo sila wrote: HeinzGuderian wrote: I'm not sure what is more appaling, if the proto-totalitarian measures of Orbán himself or the lack of international and European response. If the rethoric he used and the business interest he threatened were different, foreign newspapers would be calling him a dictator and denouncing his abuses daily.
It looks like, as always, all dictators are equal, but some dictators are more equal than others. Well, the EU is making rumbling noises, but at least some of that is to do with financial questions, which might in turn prove your point... I've seen some stuff in the German press and TV, but precious little compared to how dangerous it is. Worse than that though is the active attempt by this British paper to defend Orban.
I really doubt that the Telegraph editorship made an active decision to defend Orbán. They just allowed a single British writer of Hungarian origins (his parents were Hungarian) to write an opinion piece. Maybe they regret this, but it will already have long been forgotten by most of their readership.
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Англичанин або Англiєць?
Germany
Bremen
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janos_hunyadi wrote: I really doubt that the Telegraph editorship made an active decision to defend Orbán. They just allowed a single British writer of Hungarian origins (his parents were Hungarian) to write an opinion piece. Maybe they regret this, but it will already have long been forgotten by most of their readership.
Sure, but Fischer cleverly targeted his defence to the Telegraph's prejudices: reducing the charges against him to that of "fascism" (and what Telegraph reader hasn't been accused unjustly of being a "fascist" by some hairy lefty?--so they can identify with that) and being a thorn in the side of the EU("good chap!" responds the Telegraph reader).
So, maybe the Telegraph didn't set out to defend Orban, but their worldview enabled such a silly defence to appear on their pages.
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post-Essen syndrom
Sweden
Stockholm
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One of today's editorials in our main morning paper:
(Google translated, but polished a bit by me)
I rarely get hate mail. Though critical readers sometimes write me, they are almost never uncontrollably aggressive.
But a few days in July 2009, my inbox got very busy. With astonishment, I opened one profanity-soaked email after the other, a stream of curses where "you lying Swedish bitch" were among the nicer.
What had I done? I had visited the Hungarian city of Tatárszentgyörgy and talked with relatives of the young Romani man who was killed in a firebomb attack along with his young son. I had stood under the blackened rafters of his burnt-down house, seen the marks from the shotgun shots which struck the surviving six-year-old daughter's scrawny shoulders. I had written about it, about how the right-wing paramilitary "Jobbik" guard which marched through Roma villages. A common story, and I certainly had not expected such a reaction.
Until then, Hungary to me seemed like an ordinary post-communist country in Central Europe - wobbly economy, a population which had endured many hardships, new government after each election.
But something more disturbed me when I in 2006 followed the protests against Ferenc Gyurcsány's Socialist government. Not only the many red and white Arpad-flags (an extreme right-wing symbol) among the protesters outside the Parliament, or the antisemitic priest who gave a speech for them. There was a fierce intransigence in the atmosphere, as if the elected S-government was not only a political opponent to oppose and vote away, but an enemy to crush.
By the 2010 elections, many of the rancorous voices had turned against the Roma and the Jews. In a synagogue, I met the brothers András and Gábor, who told me about an antisemitism that was getting mainstream and accepted, about physical attacks and about Internet sites where the message boards were, regardless of the subject, filled with rants against "Jews and Gypsies."
Where does the hatred come from? Researcher Magdalena Marszovsky trace it to the ideology of a nation as an ethnically pure, homogeneous people. Widespread in Europe before World War II, and then preserved after the war, frozen behind the Iron Curtain, particularly in Hungary, with its distinctive language and dramatic history. But ethno-nationalism needs to define the 'others', those who do not belong to the nation. In Hungary, said Marszovsky, those are the "Jews" and "Gypsy" but also cosmopolitans, leftist liberals and the "decadent" cities.
And after about a year with Viktor Orban's once liberal, now conservative nationalist FIDESZ in power, it is tough for cosmopolitans, left-liberals and like-minded. Last Wednesday the respected Istvan Marta was removed as leader for the New Theatre in Budapest, and replaced by a Jobbik-sympathizing actor who dub Mel Gibson into Hungarian. And on March 31 the independent radio station Klubrádióner stops, as it lost its broadcasting license.
That's what happens when bitter ethno-nationalism can spread and draw the line between the real people and the others, those who should be expelled.
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László Horváth
Hungary
Veszprém
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@Scott: I agree to Your second and third paragraph, although I don't see yet if the things Orbán doing are making more damage, or are just the first step of the reparation.
I completely disagree on the first chapter however. I was always jealous how good the free media is working - or at least seems to work - in other parts of the world, e.g. US and UK. In Hungary, despite the formal freedom, the media organs are always "supported" by one party or the other. Especially during the MSZP adminisztration, these free organs did not report anything about the problems. And this alliance is still visible, Gyurcsány (the formal prime minister) is appearing much more in the "free" TV and newspapers, than his marginal support from the people would justify. So, it seems for me it doesn't matter, either with or without Orbán we don't have free media. He just does this openly, while the other did it behind the curtains.
@Mondainai: The feelings against gipsies are really getting to a level which is waking my worries too. Losing lifes - even childrens' - due to racist attacks is terrible. The ones who committed this are on court now, and they will get what they deserve.
These bad feelings come from our failure to integrate the gipsies, in the last 20 years, and even before. The lack of concepts in integration pushed them further down into unemployement, because the government - instead of some programs/concepts - always gave just money to them, so it wasn't worth to go working. Now many people consider them as the leech of our society. In fact, Orbán is trying to move away from this bad way, but it's not easy, and it certainly doesn't help if he gets attacked meanwhile.
On the other hand, antisemitism is something that's blown up way over reality. Recently we had a statistics made by a really independent - non-hungarian - company, results were that even among the followers of "Jobbik" the antisemitism is 4-6%, only slightly higher than the similar - nazi-like - parties in western europe. In the whole socitey, this value is of course even less. So I really don't understand reports of jews being afraid here, I don't see it in real life. Or maybe just my sample is not representative.
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Англичанин або Англiєць?
Germany
Bremen
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horlaci wrote: @Scott: I agree to Your second and third paragraph, although I don't see yet if the things Orbán doing are making more damage, or are just the first step of the reparation.
Isn't the danger with this wait-and-see approach that by changing the constitution, Fidesz is making any damage it does do almost irreparable? By requiring a 2/3rds majority for many areas of economic and social legislation, any government that comes after it will have massive difficulties in removing laws that Fidesz introduced.
This is not only undemocratic, as a party or coalition that gets into power with a clear mandate to pursue certain policies will not be able to do so. It is also economically dangerous as governments will not be able to respond to economic changes that require new policies.
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László Horváth
Hungary
Veszprém
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Salo sila wrote: horlaci wrote: @Scott: I agree to Your second and third paragraph, although I don't see yet if the things Orbán doing are making more damage, or are just the first step of the reparation. Isn't the danger with this wait-and-see approach that by changing the constitution, Fidesz is making any damage it does do almost irreparable? By requiring a 2/3rds majority for many areas of economic and social legislation, any government that comes after it will have massive difficulties in removing laws that Fidesz introduced. This is not only undemocratic, as a party or coalition that gets into power with a clear mandate to pursue certain policies will not be able to do so. It is also economically dangerous as governments will not be able to respond to economic changes that require new policies.
The wait-and-see approach is certainly dangerous.
Having many areas raised to 2/3rds majority level has exactly the goal what You describe. This goal is also clearly communicated by Fidesz, so they don't want to just silently change this in the background. The idea behind is, that with the previous laws, the incompetent government could cause so big destruction, which we don't want to be repeated in the next 40 years, even if the government changes.
I see Your point of course: we don't know what situations may come, and with this we bind the hands of future governments.
It seems that the fear from the previous incompetency returning is much stronger than the careful forethoughtful planning: Despite of all the happenings, Fidesz is still the most favored party.
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Posted Fri Feb 3, 2012 1:03 pm
