Jessey
Canada
I purchased this and do not know what to do with it!
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I couldn't wait, too many good ideas. This is a fan-variant that I hope the designer is inspired by to make an official counter-part to. Here goes.
Story-Modes
These are modes of play in which 1 player takes up the role traditionally occupied by the Computer in fighting game 'Arcade' modes. The other players will play through a series of increasingly difficult fights until they reach the end and fight the 'Boss'. Each Story-Mode is designed with different goals in mind.
ARCADE MODE
A lone hero fights stands against all comers as they battle to be the best!
This is a traditional Arcade mode. It can be played in any of the traditional game modes. It is recommended to use Arena's that are randomly selected each match. It is best used when one player is a stronger player than the other, the weaker player should take on the role of the Computer. This mode is also good to get practice and learn to use a wide variety of characters (if you play as the computer) or to practice against a wide variety of characters (if you don't).
The player(s) playing against the Computer select their characters. Then the Computer player selects five characters (or teams of characters if playing 2v2/tag) for the Arcade ladder (these are the random enemies that you have to fight through to get to the Boss) The Computer then chooses 1 remaining character to be the Boss (publicly). The five characters/teams are then randomly ordered (order unknown to anyone) and then matches are played in sequence.
After each match that the Computer loses he randomly selects an EX base and replaces the corresponding Normal base. Additionally the Computer gains +2 Hit Points for each EX base they have. This should mean that the Boss will be an EX character.
The Computer loses if the Boss is defeated. Otherwise the Computer wins (no continues).
Variants:
1. Continues: Allow for a fixed number of 'Continues' which allow the Player to start the lost match again at the cost of a Continue.
2. Hard Mode: The Computer starts as an EX character and upgrades into Almighty.
3. Home-field Advantage: Player chooses the Arena each battle.
4. Into Their Hands: Computer chooses the Arena each battle.
CAMPAIGN MODE
Four champions emerges from the darkness, rising up as one to fight against a great foe!
In this mode the Computer will control a variety of characters and teams as the player attempts to reach the boss with the most characters possible available. Each time the Computer defeats a character that character is Eliminated from the Player's roster for the rest of the Campaign. During the Final Battle the Player may use all of their remaining characters at once (which might prove necessary to win!).
The Player chooses a team of 4 characters to make up their Hero Roster. The Computer then has access to all remaining characters to select from. After each scenario is revealed both players chose their combatant(s) secretly unless the scenario indicates otherwise. If one of the Hero player's characters is defeated The Computer has access to them for the rest of the campaign.
Before the Campaign starts decide on a number of Scenario's to play (recommended is 3). Once the Hero has successfully won the chosen number the next battle is the Final Battle which is against an Almighty character (chosen when the Final Battle begins).
Scenarios:
1. 2 Heroes v 1 Computer - Computer Chooses Arena
2. 1 Hero v 1 Computer - No Arena
3. 2v2 Tag - Computer chooses Arena
4. 1v2 Tag - No Arena, Computer chooses characters and reveals before Hero.
5. 2v1 Tag - Computer chooses Arena
Final Battle: Computer Chooses Arena, the Computer's character is Almighty and cannot be a character that was part of the Hero's original roster. The Hero fights with *all* surviving Characters.
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David Gearhart
United States
Virginia
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So this is really cool, and I was wondering if you'd be willing to think about some extra stuff.
For Story Mode: It might be worth it to get somebody who has some kind of creative writing experience to develop the story mode battles that are key to that character's "story". In fighting games like BlazBlue, this is done by having certain characters be guaranteed fights in the course of story mode. There's also the possibility of making it so that wins/losses there affect future match ups/endings! It would be difficult work coming up with eighteen different stories, so there would obviously have to be some kind of fan support.
For Arcade Mode: Might it be better to have Hepzibah ALWAYS be the boss character? After all, from what I can fathom of the story, she's the one trying to revive Dark Overlord Rexan. Even in fighting games, there's still usually a tie to the story, so I think it might make sense to do that. Although, I think that having a player fight an EX Hepzibah (that starts at thirty health), while at Hepzibah's Laboratory, is a nifty decision, it's probably ultimately too favorable for Hepzibah. So maybe randomize the arena for the last fight, but make it against an EX Hepzibah. Plus, it's easier for you to shoot yourself in the foot with Hepzibah than just about any other character, so that mimics the sometimes odd decisions that computer bosses make!
For Campaign Mode: Is the campaign mode intended for multiple players? I'm not sure I understand if the Hero is playing multiple characters at the same time. That could be EXTRAORDINARILY difficult with some characters (Sagas comes to mind).
But this is REALLY cool. I'll see if I can get some friends to try some of this out. I don't know if Brad (Mr. Talton? D. Brad Talton Jr.? Kyokai? What should we call you? Game Designer Man?) will see this, but is there any way you can give us just a little bit more than the short blurbs from the lvl99games website?
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Jessey
Canada
I purchased this and do not know what to do with it!
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Deep6er wrote:
For Arcade Mode: Might it be better to have Hepzibah ALWAYS be the boss character? After all, from what I can fathom of the story, she's the one trying to revive Dark Overlord Rexan. Even in fighting games, there's still usually a tie to the story, so I think it might make sense to do that. Although, I think that having a player fight an EX Hepzibah (that starts at thirty health), while at Hepzibah's Laboratory, is a nifty decision, it's probably ultimately too favorable for Hepzibah. So maybe randomize the arena for the last fight, but make it against an EX Hepzibah. Plus, it's easier for you to shoot yourself in the foot with Hepzibah than just about any other character, so that mimics the sometimes odd decisions that computer bosses make
Agree 100% with this, I haven't read the blurbs for the characters yet (too busy playing!), but was thinking along these lines. If it is confirmed that Hepzibah is in fact the Evil One (TM) then I will change Arcade mode to always have EX Hepzibah as the boss at Hepzibah's Laboratory (I know it is favourtism, but the bosses are always irrationally hard for new players, and even more irrationally hard when you amp up difficulty).
As for Story Mode that was exactly what I was edging towards, but again lack the backstory knowledge to begin sorting it out. I welcome support of other fans!
The Campaign mode is intended as 1v1 where one player often controls multiple characters. Definitely a Very Advanced mode. There is no reason you couldn't adjust it to be 3v1 or even 4v1 but that might lead to player elimination so not sure it would be preferred.
Also, I look forward to hearing how it goes!
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David Gearhart
United States
Virginia
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There is one other thing that somewhat concerns me: some of the characters as presented are, well, for lack of a better word, evil. Zaamassal for example is a crazy, corrupted, ex-planestalker that is helping an otherworldly being of immense power try to take over the world (I'm assuming that the Champions of Indines stuff is also canon, here). If that's the case, then there might be a case of having pre-structured teams for Campaign mode. That way you can play out the "campaign" for Magdelina to recruit Heroes and face Hepzibah before the awakening of the Dark Overlord. Or, you can play as the bad guys (Demitras, Hepzibah, Regicide) that are trying to awaken the Dark Overlord. The other characters would be the characters that you interact with in the world (the random encounters assigned to the computer) while trying to achieve your goals. Plus, you could boil it down to smaller things, too. Tatsumi and Juto's quest to avenge themselves on the Magical Nation of Willat will probably not fly over so well with Rukyuk, being from Willat and all. The character's backstories are pretty well intertwined for some, but completely out there for others. The ones who are out there make for great random encounters, while the ones who are intertwined make for focuses.
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Brad Talton
United States
New Mexico
(╯‵Д′)╯彡┻━┻
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Brad is fine
Champions should tie up a lot of loose story ends (it actually happens after both War of Indines and the planned expansions), but it doesn't address actually playing through the story like you're suggesting here.
It seems to me that this kind of campaign would be more interesting for a League Play option. Each week each player in the league is randomly assigned one hero from a select list (Like Magdelina, Vanaah, Kallistar and Seth vs. Hepzibah, Heketch, Demitras, and Sagas) and they play a weekly match against each other. Based on the outcomes of those matches, the story takes a different turn, setting up for the character selections for next week, with some matches being 2v1 and 3v1. In this way you could have a big, epic game that takes place over several weeks, rather than a gauntlet of 1 on 1 matches all happening the same day.
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Jessey
Canada
I purchased this and do not know what to do with it!
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Kyokai wrote:
It seems to me that this kind of campaign would be more interesting for a League Play option. Each week each player in the league is randomly assigned one hero from a select list (Like Magdelina, Vanaah, Kallistar and Seth vs. Hepzibah, Heketch, Demitras, and Sagas) and they play a weekly match against each other. Based on the outcomes of those matches, the story takes a different turn, setting up for the character selections for next week, with some matches being 2v1 and 3v1. In this way you could have a big, epic game that takes place over several weeks, rather than a gauntlet of 1 on 1 matches all happening the same day.
That's a great idea and definitely 'fixes' the 'how can I possibly manage 4 characters at once!?' problem.
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Moosey
United States
Denver
Colorado
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This may sound like a stab against Candi/Jessey's idea, but it really is not.
When I play fighting games with friends, I like the vs mode which is just a series of fights. Like BattleCON is naturally set up for. When I play on my own, I like the "fight 5+ guys to the end and watch an ending cinematic". Therefor, I don't feel like a story mode is necessary as long as BattleCON required a human to effectively play as the "computer". That being said, it's not a bad option. And could work for a league night sort of thing as suggested. Two of my friend on the other hand strike me as odd. They like to hang out and play the game one player. Handing off the controller back and forth. I don't get it. This seems like a sub-par way to me. But it just goes to show, different strokes for different folks.
That's simply an observation to how it seems BattleCON may have naturually evolved to mimicking the vs mode more than the story mode. And perhaps illustrates that not everything from the video game style it's designed after translates as well as other parts. It's obvious Brad did think somewhat about the story mode, given that there are boss fight rules.
Now, keep in mind, I'm not ragging on this idea. I may try it out after I get enough regular games in. And I do appriciate the briliance exibited by the concept of the "player" replacing an EX base with a standard base for each loss. That's a really good idea! And is inspiring other ideas.
So all and all, I think this does sound like an interesting alternative. Not as a main source of play (at least for me), but something for those days when you want to try something new with a game you love. So I really do think this is a worthwhile fan effort. I just wanted to spit out some thoughts (with both pro and con standpoints). Hope this doesn't come across as being negative.
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David Gearhart
United States
Virginia
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MooseyFate wrote: This may sound like a stab against Candi/Jessey's idea, but it really is not.
When I play fighting games with friends, I like the vs mode which is just a series of fights. Like BattleCON is naturally set up for. When I play on my own, I like the "fight 5+ guys to the end and watch an ending cinematic". Therefor, I don't feel like a story mode is necessary as long as BattleCON required a human to effectively play as the "computer". That being said, it's not a bad option. And could work for a league night sort of thing as suggested. Two of my friend on the other hand strike me as odd. They like to hang out and play the game one player. Handing off the controller back and forth. I don't get it. This seems like a sub-par way to me. But it just goes to show, different strokes for different folks.
That's simply an observation to how it seems BattleCON may have naturually evolved to mimicking the vs mode more than the story mode. And perhaps illustrates that not everything from the video game style it's designed after translates as well as other parts. It's obvious Brad did think somewhat about the story mode, given that there are boss fight rules.
Now, keep in mind, I'm not ragging on this idea. I may try it out after I get enough regular games in. And I do appriciate the briliance exibited by the concept of the "player" replacing an EX base with a standard base for each loss. That's a really good idea! And is inspiring other ideas.
So all and all, I think this does sound like an interesting alternative. Not as a main source of play (at least for me), but something for those days when you want to try something new with a game you love. So I really do think this is a worthwhile fan effort. I just wanted to spit out some thoughts (with both pro and con standpoints). Hope this doesn't come across as being negative.
That's a perfectly understandable viewpoint. After all, this is something that they could package as a "flavor" thing, and sell completely independently of future expansions/releases. However, in an effort to promote it, creating a League Play option sounds fantastic. It could mirror Legend of the Five Rings in some respects, where what you accomplish in tournaments (or in this case, League Play), alters the story line in the game. I always felt that something like that was a clear way to bring the fans closer to the core of the game, and was definitely a way to bring together the two types of players (casual and "professional"). Plus, you could have people who enjoy this game and are into creative writing create fan supplements for the various possible endings of a League Play night. I imagine the TO would look at the sheet offered, find the result and read aloud what happened during that night, and how it affected the world, and how it would affect the next week. Yet another way to draw people into it. The only issue would be finding people to edit, and getting materials out to the Tournament Organizers.
As an aside: for Story Mode, it might be interesting to grant the computer an extra two health per EX base that they have. Full scaling effect into the EX Hepzibah.
There's one other thing that might be worthwhile to consider: additional Arenas. There's a smattering of some from all over the world, but having either a board that more fully recognizes the arena that you're in (like a board that has the background of the arena instead of a map of Indines), might be neat. Plus, additional arenas help solidify the players' idea of the world and it's important landmarks. Probably just something for later, though.
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Moosey
United States
Denver
Colorado
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If you had a specific board per level, it'd be good to just have those and not bother with arena cards (like you can shuffle the 7 Wonders boards). Have the instructions and art right on them. It'd be cool for generating atmosphere, but seems a bit wasteful at the same time. I posed this same option earlier (thread about wishlist or player mats). I have mixed feelings about this. Depends how many arenas come out in the future. Certainly not necessary, but fun. Theoretically this could facilitate things like different life bars, time tracks, arena size, etc. (not that cards cant, but this could do it in a more slick fashion).
The really cool thing is that, thanks to fan efforts, we can have whatever we dream. Thanks to efforts of people like Jessey(Candi). Just make it and play it. Whatever is fun for your group. Games that naturally facilitate this are very attractive to hobbits designers, grow the community on their own, and keep interest fresh. Brad has to prioritize what he works on, test it much more thoroughly than fans do, make sure there's enough interest to justify production (unless he sells it as PnP only). Which fan content is a good sandbox to get ideas into play quickly, even if they aren't as flushed out. Jut for fun. I encourage more creativity just like this!
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David Gearhart
United States
Virginia
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So, after some testing, I've found something interesting. It's actually impossible to beat Story Mode. The incremental life, the more powerful bases, and the stages combine to make it completely unfeasible. There needs to be some kind of balance to the Player to make it at least a little bit more fair. The furthest I got was when I was playing Tatsumi and Juto, and I made it to round four (due to the most amazingly well timed Tsunamis Collide that I've ever had. As soon as the Computer picks up Crush, the game is extremely difficult. The only reason I got as far as I did was that some of the EX bases are really bad. The Shot upgrade not having stun guard is an ENORMOUS deal. The Slide base only having a priority of eight is an absolutely huge deal, too. If he'd gotten Crush early (like I did to him), it would have been completely impossible to pass round three. Even with even life totals, beating Crush is an uphill battle if the character who gets it happens to have any natural Soak.
I still like the idea, but there's definitely some tweaks that I think are necessary.
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Jessey
Canada
I purchased this and do not know what to do with it!
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Should I fix the order EX bases come in (so that Crush doesn't enter the game until the final battle?) That would help.
Also, the player needs some advantages you are right, although it was intended to get harder as the game goes. I was reflecting on it the other day and thought this mode is actually kind of ideal for when one player is much better than another. The weaker player picks up the Computer and the game 'auto-balances' the skill differential over the matches. But a stronger player playing the computer would be indomitable and with equal skilled players the computer always wins (due to power creep).
Perhaps the player should start of stronger. Maybe with the EX character ability (but still regular bases)? Or with more health than normal?
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David Gearhart
United States
Virginia
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The one issue there is that the EX upgrades to Burst and Shot aren't really improvements, and in Shot's case, it's actually a downgrade. The problem is that if you let the Computer choose, it's going to be Crush first every time, and if you let the Player choose, it's going to be Crush last every time. By randomizing it, you have the fairest option for both players.
The proposed alternatives:
1). Give the Player more health. The problem with this is that the game will reach the timer guaranteed.
2). Give the Player EX abilities (but not bases). The problem with this is that the Player will have a HUGE advantage compared to the Computer players.
A suggestion that I thought of includes letting the player determine placement in the beginning. This is such an enormously huge advantage to some characters, and guarantees that the Player gets in damage early, which will matter a lot given the Computer player's increasing health. Plus, this offsets some of the bases. However, it should be made clear that this is only for every opponent after the first, and doesn't apply to Hepzibah, who is currently completely impossible to get to (let alone beat). The other option is to allow the Player TWO Special Actions, while the Computer player doesn't get a Special Action until round three. This would be two Special Actions every round, with the limitation that they cannot be used for the same purpose, as I don't want to figure out what happens to Lixis when she fires off her Super twice, or Hepzibah or anything like that. In all honesty, that probably means that short of a nightmare match, the first two rounds are probably going to be WAY in favor of the Player, which is usually how it goes for Story modes.
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Jessey
Canada
I purchased this and do not know what to do with it!
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I had actually been thinking about this more today. So great timing on the post!
My latest idea was thus:
1. The EX upgrades are in a fixed order, with Crush coming last and Burst/Shot both being in the middle. The Dash upgrade first perhaps, then Burst, then Drive, then Shot then Crush. (Order, of course, up for debate).
2. The player has 5 'Life' tokens (you can use the 5 extra tokens that come with the game) and when the Player is defeated they may spend 1 Life token to immediately set their health to 10, reset to the starting positions and continue the fight (with discards as they were when the player was defeated).
I also like your idea about the Special cards, except I (for the reasons you note avoiding) dislike the player having 2. Frankly, Cancel I think is one of the best moves in the game and being able to Cancel into a Finisher (for some characters) could be absolutely brutal (even against EX Hep). I hope my life tokens balance things out enough to not need to go this far, but it's an idea to hold onto.
That said, I propose as well that:
3. The Computer does not get a Special Action card until match 3 (with the Drive EX replacement).
That should help the Player get through without needing to use the Life tokens which become critical for getting through the later matches.
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Posted Fri Feb 3, 2012 8:16 pm
