Johan Haglert
Sweden
Örebro
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I knew it was on my list when I started to read here on BGG. Obviously due to the high rating and also I kinda like the computer game Civilization or Colonization and "building your stuff."
But so far I haven't bought it. Why? Well, for instance it doesn't look that exciting and back when I saw a review about it I wondered how much different picking this and that building made. However I'm not too worried there now and there's the role selection thing.
I already got RFTG and hence I kinda feel like I already have a game with that role selection + RFTG offer greater variation in card powers. However Puerto Rico got the thing there a building only produce / do something when it's occupied and also instead of leeching on someone else actions in RFTG you can rather deny their actions by picking the role they may have wanted. So there's differences in the games.
But I don't have that many games and while there is some I'm thinking of getting maybe there's better alternatives out there? I'll order Ora et Labora because it's cheap and that will kinda offer the same. Also for 10 euros more I could get Agricola which is something I've really wanted. But I know for sure that the university game club has it so I could play it there instead and hence it may not be that good of an idea to buy it myself? I have no idea whatever they have Puerto Rico but it seems like there's a huge possibility for that I assume? For the money (42 euro) I could also add a game such as Earth Reborn which would of course be very different or something like Chaos in the Old World which also interest me and is different. Only problem with that one is that it requires four players. (Imperial would also be a different game but it's a completely different beast and it's cheap and I can always get that at some other point so don't worry about it.)
The reason I started to consider Puerto Rico again is that there was the new anniversary edition which won't be available forever and probably look somewhat better. Here in Sweden it cost an insane amount of 720 SEK = 82 euro though while the original is like 300 SEK maybe. I don't know how many additional buildings is in there but for that amount it's probably not the best game to get.
However I was going to order it from Germany if I ordered and there I could get it for 43 euro which I think is reasonable. But as said Agricola could be had for just above 50, Chaos in the old world for 399 SEK = 45 euro and Earth Reborn for 52.
Is it really a valid reason to buy it "just because it's a special edition and it can only be bought now!" or because "well it's super cheap compared to an English edition in Sweden!"?
Or should I just forget about it? But if I don't buy it now it would kinda feel stupid to buy it later when I can't buy this version. Though the original in German would of course be even cheaper.
There's also the thought that think about whatever people are willing to pay much more for it later when it's out of print. But then I probably shouldn't open it but is it worth having it and later try to sell it because of that? (Seen Salinas review of War of the Ring collectors edition.)
If you got the option to say buy a lot of expansions for RFTG instead of getting puerto rico would you do that instead? I obviously can do both and would probably do both but whatever 
Is it a good enough game? You don't feel like it's unnecessary when you've got the others? Isn't Agricola better? Is Ora et Labora close enough? You don't got role selection there but you've got opportunistic trades I assume.
Another game I've considered is Glen More simply because it seem very easy and there's plenty of opportunity to take what others may have wanted and hence interactive that way. Production quality doesn't shine though and it's kinda simple and probably got less buildings(? comment?) and building interactions than the others (strategy in where to place your meeples though), but it's very cheap at just 20 euro.
I guess one advantage of Puerto Rico over Agricola or Race for the galaxy is that it's simple to grasp what you are doing, I assume Agricola is much more massive as far as possible selections goes and say my mom and possible sister would probably never be willing to learn race for the galaxy but they could possibly be able to grasp puerto rico (but most likely not enjoy it so I don't know whatever that's a valid excuse either.)
Is Puerto Rico anniversary edition worth 42 euro? Should I buy it?
Even if it was vs some other game?
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Johan Haglert
Sweden
Örebro
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I'm still thinking about Carcassonne btw.
But I would probably had wanted more expansions than the base set just to get some variation of it. And with expansions the big box 3 is cheaper than the base game + expansions.
That cost 50 euro but at first it may not feel like the game I need the most or feel is most interesting but it's simple and I think it can easily be enjoyed by many.
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Kevin B. Smith
United States
Margate
Florida
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I didn't quite understand whether you do or do not have a chance to play someone else's copy of Puerto Rico before deciding. If you do have that opportunity, I definitely think you should try it before spending a bunch of money.
I haven't played PR, but San Juan has sequential role selection that allows you to deny someone else the role. However, you are only denying them the bonus, since when you choose a role, everyone gets to do the main action. In other words, there is still a lot of leaching.
With Glen More, you can take tiles that other players wanted, but there is a penalty if you took more tiles than the other players. So that is a move to be used rarely, resulting in a game without a ton of interaction. The main interaction is probably competing for majority of barrels and things like that (my memory is a bit fuzzy since I haven't played it for a while).
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Steven Backues
United States
Ann Arbor
Michigan
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Personally, I don't see the existence of a special edition as a reason to get a game. Especially if it is really expensive. Of course, the publisher is counting on not everyone sharing that opinion.
I would definitely recommend trying to find a way to play it, and the others you mentioned, before you buy. I try to do that whenever possible, and it sounds like you probably have that option at your game club. Once you decide what you like, I don't think a difference of 8 Euros will really be significant. Better to spend 50 for a game you love then 40 for one that sits on the shelf.
Puerto Rico is one of my favorite games, so I would highly recommend it. But do your research first.
The role selection is Puerto Rico (which is the game's strongest point) is sequential, whereas in RFTG it is simultaneous. To me, this makes a big difference, as I am not a big fan of simultaneous action selection. So I think that the role selection is quite different. Also, Puerto Rico has very little luck (only in the plantation tiles), whereas RFTG has somewhat more. In general I would say that Puerto Rico feels more open and calculated (and, to me, slightly more interactive) than RFTG does.
Agricola also feels open and calculated, and I would say that it fills the same general niche that Puerto Rico does. But I like Puerto Rico a lot better mostly because I find that it is quite a bit more interactive. The fact that the roles you select affect everyone really makes you pay close attention to everyone's position, and even opens the door to a certain amount of verbal politicking, if your group wants that.
I haven't played the other games you mentioned, so I can't comment on those.
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Steve Bullock
United States
Palm Coast
Florida
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I took a peek at the games you own...
If I were you I would not buy it. Buy one you are more into feeling good about playing, not owning just because it is going to be released in a limited fashion.
A limited edition game collecting dust is no better than an ordinary game collecting dust on your shelf.
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I had somewhat the same problem as you, then suddenly out of nowhere a friend bought it and i got to play my first game of puerto rico ever. It was the anniversary edition and the next day i went and bought it as well. Totally worth the 80-90 euros i paid
Unfortunately shit's expensive in sweden, however if you value good quality like i do then you should buy it. Otherwise, buy the regular version. The game is great and the best one i've ever played.
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Johan Haglert
Sweden
Örebro
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Pberg wrote: I had somewhat the same problem as you, then suddenly out of nowhere a friend bought it and i got to play my first game of puerto rico ever. It was the anniversary edition and the next day i went and bought it as well. Totally worth the 80-90 euros i paid Unfortunately shit's expensive in sweden, however if you value good quality like i do then you should buy it. Otherwise, buy the regular version. The game is great and the best one i've ever played.
I'll go with German Ora et Labora to. I don't wanna play German Agricola though =P
The price difference isn't so big, 27 vs 43 euro or so.
I just know that eventually I will get Agricola and whatever anyway because it's the game I really want .. So kinda weird to get puerto rico, ora et labora and glen more (?) just because they are cheaper ..  (Should I even get glen more? Should I get carcassonne? Decisions decisions )
I guess another issue is that another German store had a better price on some other things if I ignored Puerto Rico (For instance I don't know whatever to pay 38 euro for Ghost stories or wait until I order from another store for 31-32.)
Whatever. It's not the end of the world and I spend way to much time to compare things here.
But I'm not convinced it a perfect choice. However of course if I had all of Carcassonne, Puerto Rico, Glen More, Ora et Labora and Agricola maybe it would be possible to get the family to play them in that order.
I know there was this fantasy coin kick-starter but the coins in Puerto Rico is probably about the same price.. With a game =P. However it doesn't make much sense to buy it because of that because 60 * 10 SEK = 600 SEK and then the coins will be worth 600 SEK in the future to
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Johan Haglert
Sweden
Örebro
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Pberg wrote: I had somewhat the same problem as you, then suddenly out of nowhere a friend bought it and i got to play my first game of puerto rico ever. It was the anniversary edition and the next day i went and bought it as well. Totally worth the 80-90 euros i paid Unfortunately shit's expensive in sweden, however if you value good quality like i do then you should buy it. Otherwise, buy the regular version. The game is great and the best one i've ever played.
I don't remember how the ship mechanic works, I guess that's different from RFTG to.
I got the impression from some video or text that everyone didn't do the same role but they do? I think I remember seeing that from the players boards. So the only difference is that just one player per round can get the bonus? In RFTG of course everyone can get the bonus.
If only done person got to do each role I would see how the game would play slower than RFTG, but now if only one person can pick each bonus then all people will pick one different role and hence I can instead see how it could move faster
I guess what's interesting with it is that it all make sense from a mechanical perspective with the worker placement. I don't know how Agricola and Ora et Labora work but in Agricola your farm do it's own thing but you select central cards with your workers? Maybe in Ora et Labora you had to pick which buildings to actually use. I don't remember.
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Johan Haglert
Sweden
Örebro
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peakhope wrote: I didn't quite understand whether you do or do not have a chance to play someone else's copy of Puerto Rico before deciding. If you do have that opportunity, I definitely think you should try it before spending a bunch of money. I haven't played PR, but San Juan has sequential role selection that allows you to deny someone else the role. However, you are only denying them the bonus, since when you choose a role, everyone gets to do the main action. In other words, there is still a lot of leaching. With Glen More, you can take tiles that other players wanted, but there is a penalty if you took more tiles than the other players. So that is a move to be used rarely, resulting in a game without a ton of interaction. The main interaction is probably competing for majority of barrels and things like that (my memory is a bit fuzzy since I haven't played it for a while).
Puerto Rico, San Juan and Race for the galaxy work the same as far as role selection goes it seems.
You don't have to take tiles in Glen More? Or you can just delay it by taking one a long way ahead? Do you feel the strategy in Glen More is rather deep because of that (and all the denying in the market to)?
Ok, so less interaction than PR?Elendil wrote: Personally, I don't see the existence of a special edition as a reason to get a game. Especially if it is really expensive. Of course, the publisher is counting on not everyone sharing that opinion. I would definitely recommend trying to find a way to play it, and the others you mentioned, before you buy. I try to do that whenever possible, and it sounds like you probably have that option at your game club. Once you decide what you like, I don't think a difference of 8 Euros will really be significant. Better to spend 50 for a game you love then 40 for one that sits on the shelf. Puerto Rico is one of my favorite games, so I would highly recommend it. But do your research first. The role selection is Puerto Rico (which is the game's strongest point) is sequential, whereas in RFTG it is simultaneous. To me, this makes a big difference, as I am not a big fan of simultaneous action selection. So I think that the role selection is quite different. Also, Puerto Rico has very little luck (only in the plantation tiles), whereas RFTG has somewhat more. In general I would say that Puerto Rico feels more open and calculated (and, to me, slightly more interactive) than RFTG does. Agricola also feels open and calculated, and I would say that it fills the same general niche that Puerto Rico does. But I like Puerto Rico a lot better mostly because I find that it is quite a bit more interactive. The fact that the roles you select affect everyone really makes you pay close attention to everyone's position, and even opens the door to a certain amount of verbal politicking, if your group wants that. I haven't played the other games you mentioned, so I can't comment on those.
What's the difference in choosing by sequence? Or was that thing that your turn order for choosing was decided on what you had chosen the last time? Just worries that your role will be picked by someone else?
I don't know how much picks on the central board in Agricola affects things. But I guess it's fine with trying to optimize your farm and not have competition to. The amount of cards should make sure you can't go with the same build setup every time anyway?
I just like how Agricola looks and with 300 cards I assume there's some variation in the game.volnon wrote: I took a peek at the games you own...
If I were you I would not buy it. Buy one you are more into feeling good about playing, not owning just because it is going to be released in a limited fashion.
A limited edition game collecting dust is no better than an ordinary game collecting dust on your shelf. Maybe. But I don't think it sucks either. It's just that I feel Agricola is probably more interesting. But I know for sure that the university got Agricola and maybe I'm not very likely to get to play (here) it if I owned it anyway.
And some non-worker placement / building games may seem more interesting. As said Earth Reborn or something such (say Gosu or Chaos in the old world) is completely different while the others share some things.
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Johan Haglert
Sweden
Örebro
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Not that it matters for the thread but damn Antiquity looks nice:
Too many games
That's one I assume may not be as common though? It was also very expensive (which is a reason for it being less common I assume.)
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Blorb Plorbst
United States
Bloomington
Indiana
I think we're all bozos on this bus.
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PR is a great game and I like it more than any of the other games you've mentioned. And it is quite different from all of them. Yes, the role mechanic is similar and yes you build stuff. But it's the way that those mechanics are implemented that make PR better than the others.
With PR, you can play with near perfect information. Your strategy will not get spoiled by a bad draw. Only by bad play. Your choices and the choices of the other players are all directly impacted by each other's decisions -- you must always be responding to what another player does.
Once all the players know the rules well, it plays quite fast too.
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Kevin B. Smith
United States
Margate
Florida
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aliquis wrote: I don't know either. My LGS and the university game club may have it. Also I assume more or less any gamer have it so if I meet up at either of those three places I could probably play it.
I have read about many games, and thought they would be great. But after playing them, I see their drawbacks and limitations. So I try really hard not to buy games until I have tried them, if possible.
Quote: Puerto Rico, San Juan and Race for the galaxy work the same as far as role selection goes it seems.
...
What's the difference in choosing by sequence? Or was that thing that your turn order for choosing was decided on what you had chosen the last time? Just worries that your role will be picked by someone else?
Again, I can't compare PR. But in SJ, each round the players choose a role in order. That means that people might choose Produce, Trade (consume), then Build, meaning you would have the income from that round available to build. Or the first player might choose Build, in which case you wouldn't have the income available yet.
And as you say, each round only one player can get the bonus for a particular role, so there is denial. Often someone chooses a role earlier than I wanted to do it, as with Build above. And if someone else chooses Produce, then I know I don't have to, and I can choose something else.
Quote: You don't have to take tiles in Glen More? Or you can just delay it by taking one a long way ahead?
In GM, you could go through the whole game taking the very next available tile every time. You would end up with like 80 tiles in your town, with tons of production but an enormous penalty. Or you could skip ahead and take only the farthest tile each time, in which case you might end up with something like only 6 tiles. Neither would likely be a winning strategy. Unlike most games, players don't alternate taking turns.
Quote: Do you feel the strategy in Glen More is rather deep because of that (and all the denying in the market to)?
Ok, so less interaction than PR?
While I love that "turn track order" mechanic of Glen More, I don't think that's where the bulk of the depth comes from. Some of it, for sure. The rest is from trying to assemble, and then execute, your production engine. The way the tiles have to be adjacent, and have a meeple available, makes it require some thought.
I think GM has a bit more interaction as the RftG base game. Which is to say, it is mostly subtle but definitely present.
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Jeff Miller
United States
South Weber
Utah
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I don't have the time to comment on all the different things you've brought up, but having read it, Puerto Rico is not a game I'd recommend for you.
You are correct in saying it doesn't look exciting. Also, it doesn't evoke that Civ feeling as there is no interaction between each others establishments. Imagine Civ the computer game where everyone was on their own island, never fought, didn't sweat borders, didn't trade, etc. That's closer to what PR is like.
You mentioned Imperial, I believe that would be more to your liking as it high-lights the war and economic sides of a civ style game. La Città is another one but with a growth/culture flair. Both are much more interactive and exciting. I'd suggest the later over the former due to a shorter playtime since it looks like you have a couple other 3+ hour games that haven't made it to the table and who needs to try and find time for a third.
Just to address the Deluxe edition issue briefly. I've found that for me personally, the only thing that having a deluxe edition does is make me want to bring it to the table more. But once I've started playing, whether the deluxe edition or not, my enjoyment during play is identical. This would be especially more true of abstracted games like Puerto Rico, Acquire, etc. Where you have so few games, the likelihood of either a deluxe copy of a game or regular edition hitting the table is probably the same due to a lack of competing titles.
My two cents...
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Enrico Viglino
United States
Phoenix, AZ
Arizona
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It's a good enough game, but as you say,
you've got RftG, and what's the point of
another game using pretty much the same mechanic
without any real basis to the theme?
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Johan Haglert
Sweden
Örebro
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Jeff: Issue with my games is that I have no-one to play with
I've picked long games because I wanted to feel like I actually did something / things had a purpose.
To do something for 10-15 minutes than have it all undone and do it again seem kinda boring.
Sure if you just play once maybe but play 10 games of RFTG for instance?
Though of course if people don't enjoy the games or don't really wanna play a long one then it's not a good idea.
You don't want to play a bad game too long obviously.
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Johan Haglert
Sweden
Örebro
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And yeah, games I would order regardless is:
* Gosu: Kamakor
* Race for the galaxy: TGS and possibly RvI.
* Ora et Labora
* Burgen von Burgundy
* Glory to rome
* Ghost stories
* Ghost stories: White moon
* Probably Hive
* Wiz-war
* Dungeon Twister 2: Prison (expansions?)
* (Earth reborn)
* (Yinsh?)
I'll wait for Thunderstone Advance and possibly Nightfall. Dunno about New Era. I probably wait with Mage Knight. Rex?
The idea was to get Puerto Rico with some of those. But as said Agricola is the one I really want and I think Chaos in the old world would be cool but stupid until I have enough people to play with.
With Imperial I don't know whatever to take 2030 or the old one + upgrade kit or what to do. I would had preferred 2030 + old map vs old version + upgrade kit with components I don't need except the map
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Sam Carroll
United States
Champaign
Illinois
Soli Deo Gloria!
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The "role selection" mechanism is a bit different between RftG and PR. RftG is simultaneous and secret role selection, which gives uncertainty. There's a bit of bluffing and guessing going on. PR doesn't have that, but there's a lot more screwage from clever role choices. Set yourself up so that only you can ship when you choose the Captain, and everybody else has to dump their goods. Also, since you share the same pool of buildings, you might take the Builder first so that you can build the last Factory rather than your opponents . . . etc. The two games feel quite different to me.
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Jeff Miller
United States
South Weber
Utah
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aliquis wrote: Though of course if people don't enjoy the games or don't really wanna play a long one then it's not a good idea.
I guess this is kind of what I was assuming/suggesting. I have a hard time getting the people I have available to game with regularly interested in anything that takes more than an hour, let alone 3+. It's rough to get just one person to commit the time to a crayon rails game, so forget about 4 others for something like Battlestar Galactica (3 years on the shelf, unplayed, and counting).
So I was simply judging your small sample of games and assumed you were in the same situation. There's no point to buying more long games if you have two that aren't being utilized for whatever reason.
For what it's worth, La Citta is roughly a 90 minute game and you'll feel like you did something.
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Quote: The problem with trying them out is that the meetings are so rarely and it's not sure that either is played at them. So that would probably take some time. Unless I meet someone just to try them out. TS S maybe? =P
Unfortunately for you, I'm one of the few hard-core geeks without PR, Agricola, et al (and I'll probably never buy them). I do have Race and Glen More (both bought as scratch and dents, or they would be absent too) and several Wallace games that you should look into. What I love about Wallace's games is that he starts with the theme and then looks to see what mechanics would emulate it, instead of the usual reversal of the design process for Euros.
You can try Dungeon Lords and Wiz-War here too. During Melodifestivalen (shudders) is a good time, since I'm all alone downstairs (TV is upstairs).
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Johan Haglert
Sweden
Örebro
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mildthrill wrote: I have a hard time getting the people I have available to game with regularly interested in anything that takes more than an hour, let alone 3+. It's rough to get just one person to commit the time to a crayon rails game, so forget about 4 others for something like Battlestar Galactica (3 years on the shelf, unplayed, and counting). Yeah, with Merchants & Marauders I knew one of the guy I knew played Magic and I had asked him earlier if he thought he'd be willing to play something (and then his friends become included) and he seemed willing to. And then I assumed it had a nice theme and would be a nice experience so why not?
I also expected we would play it at his place since he live at home and they have a house.
But so far no luck with that. We've only meet once but then at another guys apartment and all what was played was Magic. That guys girlfriend didn't participated so instead she draw fantasy things with ink or whatever while four guys played Magic. I don't know whatever she just don't know or want to play Magic or didn't wanted to play anything at all but at least M&M and DS could had played 5 players.
Late summer I was at an old friends place when I had started to surf this site and they played some Eurovision song contest style game which I thought sucked but since they knew some lyrics and was drunk and ok with singing I suppose that made it work for them (I can't really see the fun even if drunk ), I thought it could had been possible with him but I know he works a lot and in other cities so when he's home he's quite occupied with the family. Got another guy I know since long who also got two kids and work on other times than the mother of the kids so it's not that easy to get something going with them, especially both at the same time since they most likely think one should take care of the children unless they sleep but in that case it's a no-cando anyway.
Then there's an olympic lifter at the gym I thought I could eventually get interested / meet together with the Magic guy(s) which are also from the gym. But he don't seem to want to do much at all (he don't do much while at the gym either ), I know he plays games at Facebook but that's all.
Finally there's a power lifter at the gym who enjoys Risk and got Catan from his girlfriend so it would seem like he could be a possible victim but he don't seem that interesting unless we are many from the gym meeting up but nothing such has happened so far. I personally would had believed his girlfriend would had been interested to since she bought Catan for them and hence three should had worked if nothing else but well. Nothing has happened there to
So the only place which has been has been 2 player games with yet another person.
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Johan Haglert
Sweden
Örebro
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tssfulk wrote: Unfortunately for you, I'm one of the few hard-core geeks without PR, Agricola, et al (and I'll probably never buy them). I do have Race and Glen More (both bought as scratch and dents, or they would be absent too) and several Wallace games that you should look into. What I love about Wallace's games is that he starts with the theme and then looks to see what mechanics would emulate it, instead of the usual reversal of the design process for Euros.
You can try Dungeon Lords and Wiz-War here too. During Melodifestivalen (shudders) is a good time, since I'm all alone downstairs (TV is upstairs). Too bad I didn't knew that yesterday =P
I saw on text tv how SVT was afraid the "popular" TV4 program Gladiatorerna would steal viewers from Melodifestivalen. Wtf? Sure Melodifestivalen isn't that great but how on earth can Gladiatorerna be popular? . Reminds me how one of the children in my sisters class had told her he liked that water game program whatever it's called. Where people always fail in what they are trying and fall into the water.
Wiz-war seem fun from looking at the cards but I have no idea how the mechanics work / how you get them. It would be nice if there wasn't much complicated rules to tell people but rather possible to just jump in. I suspect DL is more complicated.
Brass, Steam and AFAOS would work to. For steam both that and railways of the world are so expensive and I don't know whatever I'd like them so .. Feels stupid to just get them, but different mechanics of course.
I can't say I like the look of Age of Steam, Steam, Brass or AFAOS but all got high grades so ..
Guess one can get to like the graphical style of Brass if one try to =P
Kinda like with the black box edition of glory to rome. It's kinda not that I want to look at but
(Guess the same could be said about antique but someone had made a fisherman at a lake and it looked kinda cute with the very simple fisherman )
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Darren M
New Zealand
Nelson
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Holy waffling Batman!
So many choices and so many more choices.
If I read correctly between all the lines... my gut feeling is you should buy Agricola #1 and then just regular PR #2. They are both brilliant games and well worth playing. Believe me, you don't need the ultra deluxe expensive version to enjoy it. The game has been out for 10 years with people playing that "basic" game so it's certainly an entertaining game without all the glitz added to it.
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Johan Haglert
Sweden
Örebro
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nexttothemoon wrote: Holy waffling Batman! So many choices and so many more choices. If I read correctly between all the lines... my gut feeling is you should buy Agricola #1 and then just regular PR #2. They are both brilliant games and well worth playing. Believe me, you don't need the ultra deluxe expensive version to enjoy it. The game has been out for 10 years with people playing that "basic" game so it's certainly an entertaining game without all the glitz added to it.
Here in Sweden Swedish Puerto Rico is 295 SEK, English is 325 SEK or something such, The German anniversary edition would be 378 SEK (+ shipping of complete order 13 euro)...
(English anniversary edition would be 720 SEK .. ;D)
So there's not much of a price difference so if I would ever get Puerto Rico I can just as well pay at most 80 SEK more for coins + expansions + more color and cardboard. (about 10 dollar.)
Agricola I can play at the university so I feel no need to hurry it. It's not cheaper in Germany either (English edition that is, I doubt I could conveniently play a German edition of Agricola.)
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Johan Haglert
Sweden
Örebro
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I kinda like the web store I'm talking to (many of the German web stores seem very friendly though, but obviously it's hard to bargain with many of them because they already have good prices, anyhow, not something which I can't say about my experience with web stores in the UK) so if they do the right thing and keep on being nice as far as shipping goes they will probably get that sale to
I'll say what web site once I'm done because I don't want others to steal my items =P
I may ignore Glen more for now if I take PR. Unless someone think it's very good / better / necessary / whatever? It's very cheap at 18 euro on Amazon.de but since it's on Amazon.de I can always (well, unless they don't have it any more) order it from there
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Posted Sat Feb 4, 2012 12:03 pm
