John Jester
United States
California
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If the game ends while you have cards set aside with Haven, are those cards returned to your deck? Intuitively I would think so, but the other cards that set cards aside long term (Native Village and Island, which both happen to also be in Seaside) explicitly mention that the cards are returned to your deck at the end of the game, while Haven does not. The Seaside rule book isn't any help as far as I can tell.
This can be pretty important when deciding whether you want to Haven away that Province that won't help you this turn anyway, when the game is about to end. I guess the same issue arises with Horse Traders setting itself aside until the start of your next turn, for the purposes of calculating VP from Gardens and Vineyard.
Haven
+1 Card, +1 Action
Set aside a card from your hand face down. At the start of your next turn, put it into your hand.
Island
Set aside this and another card from your hand. Return them to your deck at the end of the game.
2 VP
Native Village
+2 Actions
Choose one: Set aside the top card of your deck face down on your Native Village mat; or put all the cards from your mat into your hand.
You may look at the cards on your mat at any time; return them to your deck at the end of the game.
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Drew Spencer
United States
Tucson
Arizona
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Cards remaining in play are considered part of your deck at the end of the game. I know this is true, but I have to admit that I'm not immediately finding where the rules explicitly say that.
I would think that in the base or Intrigue rulebook it says that at the end of the game you combine your deck, discard pile, hand, and any cards set aside or in play. What I find is this:
Intrigue Rulebook wrote: Each player counts up his victory points on the cards in his entire Deck (which includes his hand and his Discard pile).
Of course there were no durations in Intrigue. I don't see anything in the Seaside rulebook specifically saying that duration cards are also considered part of your "entire Deck."
Maybe someone else can find the exact reference, if it exists.
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Mark Judd
United States
Mapleton
Utah
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Interesting observation. In the online implementation, any cards set aside by Haven (or Horse Traders) are returned to the deck at the end of the game. But I can't think of a definite ruling why that would be the case. The best that I can think of is that with Haven, the set aside card is almost treated like a duration card that you draw next turn. It is not quite in play, but it has not been removed from your deck and sent to another destination like with Islands or Native Village either. Likewise, any other duration cards that were left in play at the end of the game get returned to your deck so they can be counted for VP cards such as Gardens, Vineyard, or Fairgrounds.
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Mark Englehart
United States
San Diego
California
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He's got a point, it doesn't appear to be explicitly stated in any of the rule books.
The way it has been played everywhere I've been, including the online and AI implementations, has been that all players Clean Up their Duration cards at the end of the game and I am sure that is the designer's intent.
Native Village and Island have special text because when you use them, cards go somewhere other than your In Play Area, Discard Pile or Deck so that amount of clarity was definitely called for.
But yes, a footnote that "At the end of the game, all players Clean Up any cards remaining in their In Play Areas" should be included.
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James Newton
United Kingdom
Wiltshire
In the interest of giving credit where credit is due, my avatar is a scan of a hand-drawn caricature by cartoonist Jim Naylor which was done at my company's 20th anniversary dinner.
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It looks like it got missed off the card text / FAQ for Haven.
If you look at the Complete and All Encompassing Dominion FAQ wiki page, the section on Haven has a link to a post by Donald on the subject.
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John Jester
United States
California
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Actually I was assuming that cards that are in play will get returned to your deck at the end of the game. What I'm asking is whether the cards set aside with Haven should be returned (and likewise Horse Traders). The wording for setting the cards aside on Haven and Island is the same, yet Island explicitly states that the set aside cards should be returned to your deck at the end of the game, while Haven does not.
I wouldn't think that cards set aside with Haven count as "in play", and so the fact that cards that are in play get returned doesn't have bearing on this.
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John Jester
United States
California
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Ah, thanks for that link!
That page doesn't mention Horse Traders, but I'll assume it works just like cards set aside by Haven.
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brian
United States
Cedar Lake
Indiana
Mourning the end of the Manning era.
Welcome baby brother Toby James, 03/24, 8 lb. 15 oz.
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KuulGryphun wrote: Actually I was assuming that cards that are in play will get returned to your deck at the end of the game. What I'm asking is whether the cards set aside with Haven should be returned (and likewise Horse Traders). The wording for setting the cards aside on Haven and Island is the same, yet Island explicitly states that the set aside cards should be returned to your deck at the end of the game, while Haven does not.
I wouldn't think that cards set aside with Haven count as "in play", and so the fact that cards that are in play get returned doesn't have bearing on this.
The difference is that Haven is a "temporary" set aside where it automatically goes back into hand the very next turn. There is no need really to reference what to do with it.
Island is a "permanent" set aside so they needed to be specific on what to do with them, especially since things accumulate there throughout the game.
Native Village is in between these cards in that they can stay there until the end of game or get called up at any time. Calling it up during the game is spelled out on the card. So they needed to address what happens if you leave it there the whole game like Island.
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