We have just started getting into Power Grid, and after a lot of analysis, actually looking into the game and breaking down ideas, concepts, mechanisms, strategies and components, I have come to the conclusion this is not as great a game as many make out, or that I know what sort of gamer likes it. Given that like is so subjective and our motivations for playing games so different, this is an opinion that may help people looking at the game to get/try. I shall do this by comparing to some other games I think are better in different ways in the process.
Lets start with impressions, because that's what hits you first out of the box and during play as you take in the visual feel. The components like cards and houses are fine, nice, players pieces. The cards could be heavier for durability and a white bleed to stop the colour chip around the edges with wear. The board on the other hand is awful. I don't know about Germany, but the dark drab colours somehow don't make me feel like wow or reflect my ideas of electrification, and several make it hard to distinguish from the pipes that create the network pattern Did I say pipes?!!!! Where do pipes and flanges fit electricity? At a glance its water or sewage, gas would be related except for all the broken pipes. The theme just does not fit visually for me. While on the board I think the resource area is crammed in, it could have easily been better worked into the vacant spaces around the USA & Germany map, my big fingers always knock things over as it is just so cramped.
The written rules (in English) were OK, nothing fantastic, maybe lost something in translation, and had a typo that became very important once I discovered it as a failure to use the correct term 'Phase' instead of 'Round' in the auction phase. Overall I have read far worse rules and far better so no big complaints. What the rules lack is a complete guide to getting started, some ideas on what you need to do or how to play in a useful way. The importance of areas and connection, supply, blocking, value, first player and auctions, auctions, making connections and failure to make connection consequences. I could think of more, yet it seems like so much.
I liken Power Grid to an arms race, sort of like the Cold War, and maybe changing the theme and components it would have been a better game. You have to keep your foot on the gas pedal the whole way, not always flat out yet you can't take your foot off as you end up out of the game, your only role then is really to annoy everyone else. It is unforgiving, merciless on new players who have inadequate coaching or ideas on how to get to the end. If you do not keep up then the chances of making a serious comeback really are nil or just blind luck because the other players are fighting and bleeding themselves.
The strategy is really very, very deep, there is a lot to know and take note of, it lends to many suffering analysis problems or long delays. Auctions can drag things down to a crawl to easily, and my thoughts are that with some testing a tender or Dutch Blind Auction sort of like in the game Cuba where you are securing votes would make the auction process smoother and add an element of doubt and more quickly reflect real market value. The strategy is generally such that without a few games under your belt you basically are not going to be competitive, and that is what this game is, very competitive. Agricola is also very deep, yet it has more strategies, more paths you can choose and thus the perception or actual position you may be in is actually very different to where you might end. Some paths are easier, some harder, luck in the cards helps, yet it just has choices in the strategy you can use, and early on you can change enough to take advantage in the way the game plays. Agricola and Cuba both allow more choice in alternative strategies that you are not locked out by one bad choice which may have been forced on you.
Now I make the comparision to Agricola and Cuba despite the description in the official blub at BGG, Power Grid to me is all about resource management, even if you don't generate resources like say Agricola, or manage them more like Cuba. It is about 2 marketplaces, one for fuel and the other for power plants. Both are resources, both are purchased, one by auction and the other you get to select from a very fought over market place where you can stop players simply through over demand (Luck helps here with the alternative fuels being useful if the alternative fuel stations appear at the right times). Players behind the curve really can't catch up, their function is basically to drive up prices because that is all they can realistically do either bidding for power plants or snapping up the cheap resources. At this point they may as well be eliminated and drop out to speed the game along.
Power Grid is a very head-to-head, full on, unforgiving, no mercy strategy game. It may not be a game everyone likes. To me there are better and faster ways to test my mental ability against others, with a nicer, relevant look and more social interaction.
Our experiences may differ on all this, yet as I stated at the beginning it is an opinion, and people have different needs and wants in games. It also in my mind shows that the ranking of the game really is very flawed, there are better games overall. It kind of reminds me of the original Monopoly in general. You get other players behind the growth curve, not be over committed in investment, compete for limited resources, wealthiest players dominate the auctions/resources, then jump forward and steal the lead and win. Simplistic? Maybe. Yet Monopoly is better presented to look at and fits its theme.
For me I am glad I got this game at an on-line auction, paid half price. In the right player mix this will be a good game for a change.
You seem to feel that Power Grid has a runaway leader problem, despite the turn order mechanism used to prevent this. Did you not find it to be sufficient? Personally, when I play where are players are equally experienced, I find there is no such problem.
I'm not sure I agree with you about the resource management comment. I don't see resource management as a defining characteristic of Power Grid, certainly not when you compare it to something like Le Havre. To me, Power Grid is much more of an auction and network building game.
I agree that the artwork isn't attractive and it sounds like this is very important to you. While I am also drawn to games with nice artwork and appealing components, I'm very glad I tried Power Grid. It's my only 10.
Did I say pipes?!!!! Where do pipes and flanges fit electricity? At a glance its water or sewage, gas would be related except for all the broken pipes. The theme just does not fit visually for me.
They are electrical conduits to protect the cables. In my experience, however, they are usually PVC in the street. I do like the look of the rivets, though.
I knew I would probably draw some flak for the post so I shall reply only to constructive feedback.
@ Doug It is not that that you have runaway leaders as that you can have runaway losers, and they become the drag that does put a negative spin on the game. If I am playing elimination type games then that is fine because that's a goal of the game. Elimination allows others to swallow up the defeated and in itself maybe bad as you become over stretched in your other resources like cash or vulnerable to counter-attack type action. A good investment game like Acquire gets around this with mergers, which in themselves give 3 possible choices/advantages/strategies to the player getting swallowed. In real life you can likewise be swallowed with similar choices or you can be eliminated, and as such there is no need to drag the real market or game. Power Grid is more like the concepts of Monopoly, I think that few would like to acknowledge that as Monopoly is a almost anti-christ game to most modern gamers. The trick is to invest smartly, secure resources of property and houses, not over invest lest you have to pay up and lose in the transactions that follow. Once you have gained a sound base and put somebody to disadvantage you can race to the end. Power Grid I find similar. You don't want to be ahead as you end up with various disadvantages including maybe short on cash. You weaken your opponent as you build slowly, grinding them, then you expand into a position to compete for winning. The key differences are luck with dice vs the random deck order.
My comments about resources show I see things differently. When you understand you are managing resources you play differently, and other players will suffer. You must strive for balance in your ability to produce power, fuel the power generation, and cash income which is of course a cyclic thing. This is all balanced on top of your cities you supply, which is where you win (I know these must be supplied of course). The denial or reduction in supply to other players of a balance of these things really screws up the game if you are cleaver or cunning, and thats when players are forced into positions that may ultimately put them into the back seat, typically slipping further behind without a bullet to terminate or options to alternative strategies. Small World is equally aggressive, yet you always have alternatives and can change or evolve.
Game theme and look is important these days, as a customer I expect that my dollars will buy the best they can. Adding feel adds mood and atmosphere, sets the tone. Games such as Airlines Europe, a recent release, have a similarly drab period feel map, with appropriate artwork that gives it feel. Yet its components are very nicely themed, and they fit nicely with the map and don't suffer overcrowding even with 112 airplanes on the board at once.
I am glad I have Power Grid, and glad I did not pay full price. To me this is not a game that really suits a general audience. Just in the same way some like Monopoly and many others would say no way. I stand by my original statement that there are better games to rank ahead overall.
@Alvin They don't use them to supply cities, buildings, a block or two, not cities. They use great big overhead cables on massive pylons. There is a reason for it.
They don't use them to supply cities, buildings, a block or two, not cities. They use great big overhead cables on massive pylons. There is a reason for it.
I'm quite aware of this, but you were asking "What do pipes have to do with electricity?!" and I answered.
I like the look of the pipes and think that they work better and are clearer than overhead cables would appear. It's unfortunate that it doesn't work for you!
The written rules (in English) were OK, nothing fantastic, maybe lost something in translation, and had a typo that became very important once I discovered it as a failure to use the correct term 'Phase' instead of 'Round' in the auction phase.
What typo is that? I don't see anything I'd call a typo. Every occurrence of the word "round" is correct.
Not sure why you think the game has a runaway leader problem, as this game is the poster child for a game where you often want to be trailing, and intentionally make it so.
@Alvin When you think of electricity you think wires and cables not pipes with splits and holes. I am sure somebody could have been more creative.
@Steve Steve, it is not a game where you want to trail, you just don't want to lead yet you need to on the pace. Leading is a misnomer for adjusting the turn sequence for advantage and gain, so relatively speaking you are not leading, for people who are get better choices. Trailing is a nice way of saying losing, because once you are off the power development curve you really do fall behind. You have to be at the front in that you push others to take a fall while you maintain momentum and guide how game flows, so that you stand at the shoulder of the person 'ahead' ready to push them into a disadvantage. There are other games that do this in other ways, Carson City is a favored game of mine that does this. The real power in the game is not to be ahead, it is to develop a means to push you forward at the end, a power surge if you pardon the pun.
In PG it is not being ahead that is a handicap so much as being behind. And you can get behind in many ways. The designer has said this himself. Being ahead merely is a mechanism to change order so that you may gain advantage next turn, as long as you stay up with the leading pack. An acceptance that a rounds lesser yet significant gains can be offset by the surety that you are manipulating for next turns bigger gains. Thats why I originally stated that you have to keep your foot on the gas, you hug tight in behind the leading car and use that to build momentum to slingshot around and into the home stretch. If you lag you actually are almost certainly going to lose.
As for the reference to a typo, my copy refers to it in the Auction sequence. Read it carefully for yourself. Mine is second paragraph up above the grey boxes.
Yep that was 12 Power Grid maps back to back over two days. Worth doing, but possibly not in such a concentrated burst.
Ooh yes, now a little to the left - my nose is itchy. No, no the other left! Now what colour is 12 supporter badge going to be I wonder?
Cmdr_G wrote:
@Alvin When you think of electricity you think wires and cables not pipes with splits and holes. I am sure somebody could have been more creative.
G
Us Southern Hemisphere types tend to think wires and cables and pylons, but having driven 10,000 km around the German country side they are not anywhere near as prevalent there as they are here (due to inclement weather etc. I imagine).
That said the style of art is a personal choice and personally I think it is excellent, but others don't. C'est la vie.
@Alvin When you think of electricity you think wires and cables not pipes with splits and holes. I am sure somebody could have been more creative.
I actually don't think Alvin necessarily does think of wires and cables. Power distribution from a power station to the substations of a town or city can take a number of routes. Pylons and overhead cables may be obvious to you because you can see them but many are now increasingly buried in underground conduit to serve substations for a variety of reasons and are therefore less obvious.
If you continue to feel the need to criticise the game board for its graphics you would do better to find fault with the scale of the cities as drawn, the fact they appear to be perfect circles and the topography of the city locations. But as this is a stylised board for a game and not claiming to be an aerial photo I think we'd all be better off concentrating on the game play.
It is not that that you have runaway leaders as that you can have runaway losers, and they become the drag that does put a negative spin on the game. If I am playing elimination type games then that is fine because that's a goal of the game.
Sorry, I understood what you were saying but didn't express myself correctly. I have been in the "runaway loser" position you describe, and although it didn't feel good, it was due to multiple poor decisions on my part. As you have said, Power Grid can be brutal and unforgiving. Still, I am guessing you don't think the turn order/catchup mechanism is somehow sufficient, then. With experienced players, it should be.
Cmdr_G wrote:
The key differences are luck with dice vs the random deck order
While the next power plant you draw is random, in my opinion it's managed by the fact that the market is rearranged after each draw, for all to see. It's not the same as rolling dice. Also, the person trailing in the game should be sitting in the catbird seat here.
Cmdr_G wrote:
My comments about resources show I see things differently. When you understand you are managing resources you play differently, and other players will suffer. You must strive for balance in your ability to produce power, fuel the power generation, and cash income which is of course a cyclic thing. This is all balanced on top of your cities you supply, which is where you win (I know these must be supplied of course). The denial or reduction in supply to other players of a balance of these things really screws up the game if you are cleaver or cunning, and thats when players are forced into positions that may ultimately put them into the back seat, typically slipping further behind without a bullet to terminate or options to alternative strategies.
I agree that resource management is part of the game, but here again, due to the turn order mechanism, the leaders should be kept in check. Yes, you can shut someone out of resources, but in my experience this doesn't happen until the final one or two turns. Is it happening sooner in your games? Are players watching what fuel sources each other uses and how much they're buying, and playing accordingly?
Cmdr_G wrote:
I am glad I have Power Grid, and glad I did not pay full price. To me this is not a game that really suits a general audience. Just in the same way some like Monopoly and many others would say no way. I stand by my original statement that there are better games to rank ahead overall.
I agree 100% that it doesn't suit the general audience. As you yourself said, it can be "unforgiving" and "no mercy". I stick by my statement that, with equally experienced players, the game is brilliant (and fun!) and deserves its ranking. But with inexperienced players at the table, the game is going to suffer. That's true of many games.
Although I commend you for writing a negative review about a popular game (I did the same thing with a review of Dominion), you fail to make any real points that argue against Power Grid being in the top 50.
Thanks for the review! It would be nice to see more like them in the hobby. It seems like most "reviews" I see/hear/read are glowing, which is a bit confusing because as a newbie, if people say all games are good, then that isn't very helpful. In this case, you actually talk about the game flow, the game play, how your group used the rules, played their strategy, and how the interaction was, which is exactly the type of information I need to know in order to make a good purchase decision. I need to know what the game experience is like, simply saying a game is good or bad really is irrelevant to me.
It comes down to this:
I know my game group, I am getting a sense of what games we generally like, I am starting to learn what game experiences are attractive to us, so I seek out games that will provide these types of experiences.
In my humble opinion, your review of Power Grid did exactly that!
and by the way, your review helped me solidify that Power Grid will be a great game for my group, because we are a cut-throat type of group (we love Hansa Tuetonica).
As for the reference to a typo, my copy refers to it in the Auction sequence. Read it carefully for yourself. Mine is second paragraph up above the grey boxes.
Still not seeing any incorrect use of the word round. These are the last three paragraphs above the 2 grey boxes, going back to the rules from mid 2007, four and a half years ago. (I'm assuming you played an older copy, as the rules have been coloured green for the past 2 years)
Quote:
Once a player has purchased a power plant in a round, he cannot bid in another auction in the same round, nor can he offer a plant at auction. When a player other than the player who started the auction wins the auction, the auctioning player may choose a new plant to auction from the actual market. When the auctioning player wins the auction and gets the power plant, the next player in turn order takes his turn at offering a power plant for auction, if he has not already purchased a power plant this round. If he has, the next player in turn order may start an auction, and so on.
When it is a player's turn to choose a power plant to auction, he may choose not to start an auction and, instead pass. If he does so, he cannot bid on other power plants in later auctions in this round and, thus, will not get a new power plant this round.
The last player to start an auction in a round can pay just the minimum bid to get the power plant, if he chooses to do so. This is an advantage to being last in this phase.
Plus, since there is a only one auction phase in a round, substituting the word phase for round doesn't change anything gameplay-wise. So I really don't understand how you had an issue here.
I appreciate the discussion begun in the OP, but, as many arguments are, this is generally down to one's definition of BGG top 50. Do you believe that the top 50 should be widely liked, fairly accessible games? Or, like me, do you find that the top 50 should be games that excel within their genres, despite how niche that genre may be?
For example, Twilight Struggle is #1 right now. I don't think that most who try it will like it. Of those attracted to that type of game, TS seems to be their favorite.
Power Grid is in a similar boat. If everyone on BGG played it, I bet its rating would go down, but for those who enjoy market manipulation, economic snowballs, player interaction, and auction mechanisms, this one shines.
I wonder if you see that the top 50 should be a representation of more widely enjoyed games rather than ones distinctive within their respective categories.
PS: I do think the art is certainly a bit of a negative, but it is a game about factories after all. It's one of the reasons my wife doesn't enjoy it.
I think you make valid points, but the issues you have with the game can be applied to many of the top 50 BGG.
Consider your problem with the runaway leader/runaway straggler. The reason for this is not like in Monopoly which you suggest, but actually the opposite. In Monopoly a person can fall way behind (and must), but it is almost completely luck since there is so few decisions in the game (hence why people don't like it). On the other hand, in Power Grid, if you are doing very poorly, it is almost completely due to your own poor decisions since there is virtually no chance other than the order of the power plants. This is true for many top games (see Agricola, Puerto Rico, Dominion, etc.) because it is not really possible to have low-luck games where people can't fall behind if they do poorly. These games are meant to be like that, and require many plays to master. Ultimately, what I take from your complaint is that you don't like these kinds of low-luck games despite their popularity on this website, and that is perfectly fine.
You also don't care for the artwork, but again I think this applies to many top games as well. I find the board for Brass quite drab, and the Harem card from Dominion is seen as comically bad. Dominant Species was incredibly popular even when it had its minimalist design.
So I overall, I think you make valid points, but the title of your post should be: Power Grid is a heavy Euro and not a light Euro and doesn't belong in my top 50.
@Ben Thanks If people know what they are getting and what to expect in both a negative and positive context, and it helps the yes or no, I did OK.
@Doug We are having different experiences, and perhaps this has come about from a different perspective of analysis from a different group of game players. That said it is the experience we are having. We know how to cut each other off, and developed a style to bleed the game. This was also why the idea of a Blind Auction came about which I now want to test.
@Nick Within a city is one thing, the game theme is intercity, and with the given theme and time period it covers it is not something that match. The fact that the artwork goes not really make the grade is a fair comment, it just does not make the grade of what is out there. It does not directly effect my game play except for the fact my big fingers have trouble picking up pieces in a crowded resource area. Both are valid perspectives.
@Steve It should read;- When it is a player's turn to choose a power plant to auction, he may choose not to start an auction and, instead pass. If he does so, he cannot bid on other power plants in later auctions in this Step.
G
Last edited Mon Feb 6, 2012 5:27 pm (Total Number of Edits: 1)
A lot of people complain about how groupthink ratings are, how the newest most hyped games get a rating out of proportion to how good the game actually is.
And then yet, any time someone gets up the courage to say that they don't like a popular game or think it's only moderately good, they get jumped by an angry mob.
A lot of people complain about how groupthink ratings are, how the newest most hyped games get a rating out of proportion to how good the game actually is.
And then yet, any time someone gets up the courage to say that they don't like a popular game or think it's only moderately good, they get jumped by an angry mob.
So why do you think that first problem exists?
Yes David! Be nice to people who have the encourage to go against the grain here. The OP is sharing an opinion and sharing experiences. If we want more of this (which I surely do) don't scare others away who would do the same thing.
@Steve It should read;- When it is a player's turn to choose a power plant to auction, he may choose not to start an auction and, instead pass. If he does so, he cannot bid on other power plants in later auctions in this Step.
This is not right, and Steve is correct. According to the rules as worded: if: a player declines to put up a power plant for auction when it is his turn to do so (ie. everybody before him in turn order has already either bought a plant this round or also declined to put up a plant for auction this round), then: he also forfeits the right to bid on any power plant that is put up for auction later this round (ie. by players after him in turn order).
This persists for only 1 auction phase, ie. this round. It does not affect his ability to offer plants or to bid in the auction phase of the next round, which may or may not be in the same Step.
It's hard to justify a negative opinion on BGG sometimes, but I think you have worked pretty hard to support your points.
Even though most responders here don't agree with you, I think you have some valid cautions- this game is not for everybody and caveat emptor definitely applies.
Your post makes clear some specific reasons why a gamer may want to steer clear of Power Grid despite its high rating, and will help folks be more aware of exactly what they are buying with their hard-earned salary.
I enjoy Power Grid despite the points you mention (it's in my personal Top 3), but I can understand why you don't enjoy it as much as I, or think that it's worth its current place in the Top 50 (or Top 10).
Thanks for helping make BGG a better place for all of us- good post!
And then yet, any time someone gets up the courage to say that they don't like a popular game or think it's only moderately good, they get jumped by an angry mob.
Angry mob? I think discussion here has been quite reasonable.
Personally, I'm a little confused myself as to why he thinks it shouldn't be in the top 50 on BGG, other than "it isn't for everybody".
Well, that's probably true with every game in the top 50. Yes, I agree that Power Grid isn't for everyone. But, that doesn't make it not a great game. Yes, it is very analytical and it is hard to do well without experience. But, that in itself isn't a great argument that it doesn't deserve to be in the top 50. Just an argument that it might not be for you.
If people know what they are getting and what to expect in both a negative and positive context, and it helps the yes or no, I did OK.
