Shemp Fill-in: Chan?
United States
Fountain Valley
California
Which way did I go?
Pick a card.
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Rubric wrote: A few examples:
Can Mind look at it? No.
Can Oracle make you play it first? Well, this isn't actually doing anything to the card. It's still the other player's choice whether to play it. Oracle simply reveals it earlier than normal.
Can Sorcerer switch it? No.
Can Calculator equalize it? This is the "modify value" question that hasn't been decided yet.
Can Chronos force you to replay it? No.
Can Magician pick it? By my intent, no. But that creates a small problem: How does the Magician use his power if his opponent plays a Purchased Card? Unresolved so far.
Can Warhawk morph it? You mean, can Warhawk's N (played as an M) or any other player's M, become the same card? Then Yes. The Purchase Card is not being effected.
If you mean, can a Purchased N be changed into an Attack 00 by Warhawk's power, that's the "modify value" question again.
Can Ethic make you feel guilty for playing it? Certainly. The Ethic's power is not effecting the card.
Can Seeker ask about it? Not according to my original intent, but I could make an exception here, partly due to the open-endedness of Seeker's power. In general, another power should not be able to gain information about what Purchase Cards you have, but that doesn't mean the Seeker can't ask, "Are you going to play a Purchase Card?"
Can Visionary force it? No.
Can Philanthropist give it to you? Could be OK, but for consistency's sake, no.
Can Citadel use it for defense? No. Nor can the Industrialist stack it.
Can Cryo store it? No.
Does Genius count it? No. It's not part of your hand.
As I said. No power can take the card away from you, or prevent you from playing it*, or force you to play it*, or look at it without you voluntarily playing it.
*As a specific card. A power like Loser could still force you to play only an Attack card, preventing you from playing a Negotiate card, but it doesn't prevent you from or require you to play a Purchase Card. And of course, if you have no Attack cards in your hand, you are not required to play a Purchased Attack Card, and could play an N, Purchased or otherwise.
An undecided question is whether powers can modify the values of Purchase Cards. But the answer to this question, whatever it ends up being, will be the same for all powers: Mirror, Graviton, Warhawk, Tripler, Calculator, Reserve, Empath, etc.
Quote: Also, there is the consideration of what if you WANT to discard it? I know you define them as "good" cards, but of course good is not universal in this game. Somebody will want to get rid of one sooner or later.
Why? Even if you don't like the card, it doesn't cost you anything to hold onto it and not play it.
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Shemp Fill-in: Chan?
United States
Fountain Valley
California
Which way did I go?
Pick a card.
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Bill Martinson wrote: Kobold Curry Chef wrote: the rulebook actually clearly defines it. Sure, they could have been more consistent in card layout, but you can't say they didn't get very specific in the rules. Which makes it all the more baffling why they wanted the cards to appear to contradict the rules.
And of course the rules contradict themselves, too. With one specific type: the Morph. It's a separate type - except when you use it, and then it's not a separate type - then it's either a Negotiate or an Attack.
Part of the problem may also be vestigial remnants of older editions, when Attack and Compromise (Negotiate) were not separate types, but both the same type: Challenge Cards (Encounter Cards).
This is a separate discussion, though. I think I might start a new thread about it.
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Just a Bill
United States
Norfolk
Virginia
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Phil Fleischmann wrote: And of course the rules contradict themselves, too. With one specific type: the Morph. It's a separate type - except when you use it, and then it's not a separate type - then it's either a Negotiate or an Attack.
That's not an exception. A Morph turning into an Attack or Negotiate is no different than an Attack turning into a Negotiate because of Emotion Control, or a Negotiate turning into an Attack because of Warhawk, or an Attack turning into a different Attack because of Wild Human, or any number of other similar examples. It's all just a game effect turning one card into another due to its game text. None of those things are exceptions, they are just Cosmic Encounter doing what Cosmic Encounter does.
Phil Fleischmann wrote: Part of the problem may also be vestigial remnants of older editions, when Attack and Compromise (Negotiate) were not separate types, but both the same type: Challenge Cards (Encounter Cards).
Attack and Compromise were not the same card type under Eon. Did Mayfair rule that they were? (Wouldn't surprise me; they did a lot of dumb things.)
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Gerald Katz
United States
New York
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Mayfair did alright with its Lucre economy. The prices were just wonky. In addition to buying cards from the deck and ships from the warp you paid to add to your encounter total, you could buy flares from the unused flare deck, and even pay to discard cards. Most Lucre powers weren't overpowering because the economy gave you enough Lucre to cover them while still able to do something with what you had left. Extortionist was still rather obnoxious. Assessor was made into a Lucre power but still really annoying.
I think it had cost too much to add to encounter totals, before or the even more expensive after cards are revealed. No one bothered. Mostly it was used to buy cards or ships and often Flares. Discarding cards was very rare because it was the most expensive at 10 Lucre for just one card. The numbers probably need to be fiddled with, but it's good for a starting point.
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Freelance Police
United States
Palo Alto
California
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Another possibility is, instead of a single set of Lucre rules, is to have something basic, plus variants.
The variants might even be printed on cards, so, like Alien selection, you could deal out two cards per player, and they'd select which ones to put into play.
Personally, I play CE casually, so barely played with Lucre. So any variant is fine, so long as it's easy to play.
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Phil Fleischmann wrote: Can Chronos force you to replay it? No.
So Chronos goes from a decent combat power to "Everyone is given a heavy incentive to play their strong Lucre-bought cards against you, and if they do your power ceases to exist"? And I doubt Chronos is the only power that gets hosed this way; Filch's soft "nobody plays high against you" advantage turns into a soft "everybody plays high Lucre-bought cards against you" disadvantage. So does anything else like Sorcerer whose power ceases to exist in the presence of these.
Phil Fleischmann wrote: In general, another power should not be able to gain information about what Purchase Cards you have, but that doesn't mean the Seeker can't ask, "Are you going to play a Purchase Card?"
Better rewrite the Seeker to say "Ask any yes-or-no question... unless we come up with a new variant deck that we think is so cool its contents deserves to be immune to everything in the universe, in which case no asking for spoilers about those cards because they're too awesome."
Somewhere along the line, a decent idea - "Let's make Lucre let you buy cards from a special Reward deck thing" - got derailed into "This special Reward deck is awesome, how could we make it more awesome? I know, let's make it trump every other effect in the game and invalidate entire alien powers by virtue of its sheer awesomeness. Purchase cards sure are awesome."
For someone who just last week was arguing that no part of the game should even exist if it doesn't interact with powers, which are supposed to be the centerpiece of the game, you certainly seem eager here to create a new module that actively goes out of its way to stop alien powers from actually doing what they're supposed to be able to do.
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Just a Bill
United States
Norfolk
Virginia
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salty53 wrote: For someone who just last week was arguing that no part of the game should even exist if it doesn't interact with powers, which are supposed to be the centerpiece of the game, you certainly seem eager here to create a new module that actively goes out of its way to stop alien powers from actually doing what they're supposed to be able to do.
What's that word the cool kids use? Pawned? Prawned? Porned?
Sorry, just being a smart-aleck this morning. But seriously, Roberta has a point. I quickly lost interest in the concept mainly because of this. It's just as unpalatable as the unzappable aliens that FFG seems so enamored with.
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Andy Leber
Canada
Orillia
ON
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Bill Martinson wrote:
What's that word the cool kids use? Pawned? Prawned? Porned?
LOL. I like the 3rd one. I'm going to start using it.
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Ken H.
United States
Amherst
Ohio
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What if the rule is that you can set aside lucre cards whenever you want to, and then return them to your hand whenever you want to. So, if somebody tries to take compensation (whether naturally or via a power), you can protect your investment because the card is no longer part of your hand. Likewise, you are safe (at your option) from Mind or Visionary, but you have not completely negated those powers. As long as the card backs are different, there are no "honor system" concerns.
Also, when you need a new hand, you could set aside a lucre card, whether it is an encounter card or not, and get your new hand. Then reclaim the card afterwards.
That probably interacts badly with the Timing Rule, but then what doesn't.
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What if the rule is that it works exactly like Miser and Cyborg already do?
Seriously, besides the obvious fact that phrasing it like that makes it obvious that this is treading on their design space, why not? If you want to create a magical zone off to the side that can't be touched by compensation or peeked at by Mind, the game already contains not one but two alien powers that fit the bill. Why jump through linguistic hoops, or invent rules like "Purchase cards are immune to powers" to protect them from Mind that then end up hosing loads of aliens and making the game much less interesting, when the game already contains exactly what we want and we could have it if we were simply willing to Ctrl+C/Ctr+V?
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Ken H.
United States
Amherst
Ohio
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salty53 wrote: What if the rule is that it works exactly like Miser and Cyborg already do?
It's not exactly the same, so copy/paste wouldn't work. Cyborg cards are face up, and can only be played (not traded). Miser hoard cards function as a kind of pseudo-hand of their own, with redraw privileges when you have no encounter cards (although that rarely happens because you can't get rid of your bad ones).
So, some additional explanation is going to be needed. However, I agree that it might be a good starting point -- other players cannot "look at or draw" your lucre cards, etc. I'd still prefer for it to be my choice, though.
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Andy Leber
Canada
Orillia
ON
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Make the Lucre cards like rifts, except they explode, have a negative effect on your opponent, and the return to your hand.
That doesn't stop them from looking at the cards though.
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Rubric wrote: It's not exactly the same, so copy/paste wouldn't work. Cyborg cards are face up, and can only be played (not traded). Miser hoard cards function as a kind of pseudo-hand of their own, with redraw privileges when you have no encounter cards (although that rarely happens because you can't get rid of your bad ones).
Okay, it's a two-line change. The two changes are simple (just strike out the "face-up" and "redraw" clauses and tack on the trading clause).
Rubric wrote: I'd still prefer for it to be my choice, though.
I like that yours can be used with powers like Philanthropist, Cryo, etc. The problem is that unless you keep it set aside all the time, it will always be vulnerable to some forms of loss ("It's in your hand? Wild Changeling! Nope, can't set it aside, this game doesn't have a stack like Magic does."), and as that example shows, those forms will end up being weird and counterintuitive (since predictable stuff like compensation you can easily avoid, but random effects like that can jump out of nowhere).
Of course, I'd also be fine with "the Purchase card goes into your hand when you buy it and is treated the way we already treat Rewards cards". Just toss a few Rifts into the Purchase deck (Lucre should be giving us a way of retrieving ships anyhow).
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Jack Reda
United States
Herndon
Virginia
Guess the games in my uberbadge!
My favorite game is Cosmic Encounter.
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You could have a mechanic that lets you put the cards out of play, to protect them- but while they are out, you can't use them either. So, to put them back in your hand means they are fair game and at your disposal.
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Shemp Fill-in: Chan?
United States
Fountain Valley
California
Which way did I go?
Pick a card.
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salty53 wrote: Phil Fleischmann wrote: Can Chronos force you to replay it? No. So Chronos goes from a decent combat power to "Everyone is given a heavy incentive to play their strong Lucre-bought cards against you, and if they do your power ceases to exist"?
Chronos's power does not cease to exist. He can still change his own card after seeing his opponent's.
Quote: And I doubt Chronos is the only power that gets hosed this way; Filch's soft "nobody plays high against you" advantage turns into a soft "everybody plays high Lucre-bought cards against you" disadvantage. So does anything else like Sorcerer whose power ceases to exist in the presence of these.
The answer to all these questions is a resounding "Maybe". Like I said in my original post, this idea is not yet ready to be played. Any of the details could be changed.
Keep these things in mind:
* With different card backs, opponents will know in advance that they're facing a Purchase card, and can choose their card appropriately.
* Each player will only have maybe 3-5 of these cards at most for the entire game. So even if one or more powers is hosed by the playing of a Purchase card, there's a very limited number of times this can happen.
* All players will have equal access to the Purchase Deck, subject to whatever else might effect their supply of Lucre. So yes, you might hose someone with a Purchase card, but someone else is just as likely to hose you.
* As was mentioned in a previous post, there might not even be any encounter cards in the Purchase Deck at all.
Quote: Stuff about "awesome"
Things that are extremely expensive should be awesome, shouldn't they? Otherwise no one would buy them.
Quote: For someone who just last week was arguing that no part of the game should even exist if it doesn't interact with powers, which are supposed to be the centerpiece of the game, you certainly seem eager here to create a new module that actively goes out of its way to stop alien powers from actually doing what they're supposed to be able to do.
I don't see how you can draw this conclusion. It's like I've shown you a rough draft of a blueprint for a house that hasn't been built yet, and you're complaining about the color of the carpet.
And yes, I would want to have powers that interact with Purchase cards, as I've already mentioned in this thread.
salty53 wrote: What if the rule is that it works exactly like Miser and Cyborg already do?
Seriously, besides the obvious fact that phrasing it like that makes it obvious that this is treading on their design space, why not?
Everything in the game already treads on the design space of something else in the game. Cyborg treads on Chosen's design space. Miser treads on Mutant's design space. Pretty much all the "get extra cards" powers are all in the same design space.
And remember, Cyborg gets a new card every time he uses one, and Miser gets a new hoard every time he uses it up. Purchase cards are very expensive and do not replenish themselves. You get very few for the whole game.
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Phil Fleischmann wrote: Chronos's power does not cease to exist. He can still change his own card after seeing his opponent's.
So against one of these cards, Chronos's power kind of partially gets used, resulting in basically a rephrasing of the Oracle's power? That's... strange.
Phil Fleischmann wrote: The answer to all these questions is a resounding "Maybe". Like I said in my original post, this idea is not yet ready to be played. Any of the details could be changed.
Keep these things in mind:
* With different card backs, opponents will know in advance that they're facing a Purchase card, and can choose their card appropriately.
Same is true of Reward cards; we never saw fit to make them immune to everything.
Phil Fleischmann wrote: * Each player will only have maybe 3-5 of these cards at most for the entire game. So even if one or more powers is hosed by the playing of a Purchase card, there's a very limited number of times this can happen.
Not as limited as you might think. Currently, about half the Purchase deck is encounter cards, so each player will get about two encounter cards from the Purchase deck per game. So all other things being equal, on average each player will be opposed by two encounter cards from the Purchase deck per game. But here's the thing: all other things are not equal. I'm much more likely to use my Purchase encounter cards against powers like Sorcerer, where they basically come with a tacked-on Cosmic Zap, than against powers like Glutton that don't care about them. So the aliens that get hosed will be facing them quite a lot.
Phil Fleischmann wrote: * All players will have equal access to the Purchase Deck, subject to whatever else might effect their supply of Lucre. So yes, you might hose someone with a Purchase card, but someone else is just as likely to hose you.
Not if their alien power is the Sorcerer or something similar that Purchase encounter cards can de facto zap and my alien power is something random like Glutton that doesn't try to affect my opponents' cards. If I play an Attack 20 and a Cosmic Zap against you, and you've played an Attack 20 against me, I've hosed you more than you've hosed me.
Phil Fleischmann wrote: Things that are extremely expensive should be awesome, shouldn't they? Otherwise no one would buy them.
Yes, they would. Of course they would. The entire premise of this variant is that there is absolutely nothing on which Lucre can be spent other than these Purchase cards. You could replace the entire Purchase deck with Rift 1's and people would still buy them because there's nothing better to buy with Lucre.
Besides, I fail to see how the only way to make the Purchase deck strong enough is to make its encounter cards temporarily turn the Chronos into the Oracle. That's not even a change of strength; that's just random and weird.
Phil Fleischmann wrote: I don't see how you can draw this conclusion. It's like I've shown you a rough draft of a blueprint for a house that hasn't been built yet, and you're complaining about the color of the carpet.
It strikes me as being more like if you've shown me a rough draft of a blueprint for a house that has no front door, a third floor but no second floor, no foundation to provide architectural stability, and some room arrangement that under normal Euclidean geometry would force multiple rooms to occupy exactly the same point in space. Sure, it might be salvageable with a lot of effort... but I'm going to turn to other proposed blueprints first.
It seems quite telling that this thread, which was previously very active, died for several days after the big "these cards are immune to aliens" post. This wasn't just one small-minded person quitting; this was pretty much everyone moving on to other proposals.
Phil Fleischmann wrote: And yes, I would want to have powers that interact with Purchase cards, as I've already mentioned in this thread.
Yes, you want to design *new* powers to interact with Purchase cards - but for some reason you've decided to do it in such a way that none of the pre-existing powers can interact with them in any way other than being negated. It would be like if the Reward deck were introduced with extra rules saying "Also, these cards can't be collected in compensation, they remain with their owner even if the Trader swaps hands, and when they're played into an encounter they can't be swapped by Sorcerer or grabbed by Filch." Sure, we're about to get Mercenary and Ghoul that do interact with them by providing additional sources of Rewards... but we've also sacrificed a huge amount of normal interaction for no particular reason.
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Shemp Fill-in: Chan?
United States
Fountain Valley
California
Which way did I go?
Pick a card.
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salty53 wrote: Phil Fleischmann wrote: The answer to all these questions is a resounding "Maybe". Like I said in my original post, this idea is not yet ready to be played. Any of the details could be changed.
Keep these things in mind:
* With different card backs, opponents will know in advance that they're facing a Purchase card, and can choose their card appropriately. Same is true of Reward cards; we never saw fit to make them immune to everything.
Purchase Cards are not the same as Reward Cards. I thought I had made that clear in my first post.
Quote: Phil Fleischmann wrote: * Each player will only have maybe 3-5 of these cards at most for the entire game. So even if one or more powers is hosed by the playing of a Purchase card, there's a very limited number of times this can happen. Not as limited as you might think. Currently, about half the Purchase deck is encounter cards,
Well, currently, there is no Purchase Deck. So there is no decided proportion of encounter cards in it. It probably won't be more than half, but it might be as low as none.
Quote: Phil Fleischmann wrote: * All players will have equal access to the Purchase Deck, subject to whatever else might effect their supply of Lucre. So yes, you might hose someone with a Purchase card, but someone else is just as likely to hose you. Not if their alien power is the Sorcerer or something similar that Purchase encounter cards can de facto zap and my alien power is something random like Glutton that doesn't try to affect my opponents' cards. If I play an Attack 20 and a Cosmic Zap against you, and you've played an Attack 20 against me, I've hosed you more than you've hosed me.
How is either one more hosed than the other if we both win our respective encounters? We both gain a foreign colony as offense, and we both get that much closer to winning the game.
Quote: Phil Fleischmann wrote: Things that are extremely expensive should be awesome, shouldn't they? Otherwise no one would buy them. Yes, they would. Of course they would. The entire premise of this variant is that there is absolutely nothing on which Lucre can be spent other than these Purchase cards. You could replace the entire Purchase deck with Rift 1's and people would still buy them because there's nothing better to buy with Lucre.
That's not the "entire premise". It's only part of the premise. Let's say there are other things to buy with Lucre, or that you don't just "get" Lucre, but you have to do something fairly difficult/unusual/lucky/otherwise unproductive to earn it. If Purchase Cards aren't awesome, then no one is going to bother forgoing a second encounter (for example) to get one.
Quote: Besides, I fail to see how the only way to make the Purchase deck strong enough is to make its encounter cards temporarily turn the Chronos into the Oracle. That's not even a change of strength; that's just random and weird.
Then by all means, feel free to propose another way.
Quote: Phil Fleischmann wrote: I don't see how you can draw this conclusion. It's like I've shown you a rough draft of a blueprint for a house that hasn't been built yet, and you're complaining about the color of the carpet. It strikes me as being more like if you've shown me a rough draft of a blueprint for a house that has no front door, a third floor but no second floor, no foundation to provide architectural stability, and some room arrangement that under normal Euclidean geometry would force multiple rooms to occupy exactly the same point in space. Sure, it might be salvageable with a lot of effort... but I'm going to turn to other proposed blueprints first.
How so? You might not like the way it works, but there's nothing contradictory or impossible about it.
Quote: It seems quite telling that this thread, which was previously very active, died for several days after the big "these cards are immune to aliens" post. This wasn't just one small-minded person quitting; this was pretty much everyone moving on to other proposals.
You mean the very first post? That's where I first said that these cards are immune to power effects. Seems to me there have been quite a few responses.
Quote: Phil Fleischmann wrote: And yes, I would want to have powers that interact with Purchase cards, as I've already mentioned in this thread. Yes, you want to design *new* powers to interact with Purchase cards - but for some reason you've decided to do it in such a way that none of the pre-existing powers can interact with them in any way other than being negated.
No such decision has actually been made yet.
Quote: It would be like if the Reward deck were introduced with extra rules saying "Also, these cards can't be collected in compensation, they remain with their owner even if the Trader swaps hands, and when they're played into an encounter they can't be swapped by Sorcerer or grabbed by Filch."
Yes, it would be like that. Except that you'd also have to add that you don't get them as "Rewards" like for being a defensive ally. And that you only get them by some very rare circumstance or very high cost.
I feel like I'm saying the same thing over and over again. I don't know how to make it any more clear.
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