Andreas H.
Germany
Frankfurt
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I´ve decided to share my selfmade Civilizations.
I´d like to thank Hinniboy for letting me use his templates for PaintShop!
I´d also like to thank all the users for sharing their thoughts about certain abilities, ideas, critisicm etc
Please feel free to share your opinion about the following ones.
edit: 02/07/12 updated Sioux and Babylonian
edit: 02/07/12 new Maya
edit: 02/08/12 updated Zulu
edit: 02/08/12 new Vikings
edit: 03/07/12 final versions of Babylonian and Sioux
edit: 03/09/12 final versions of Maya and Zulu
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Ron Hills
United States
Grovetown
Georgia
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Re: Selfmade Civilizations
Interesting civilizations. It would be neat to try them out.
Here are my first thoughts on each civ. (And let me point out that I have only played the game a handful of times, so my gameplay-related opinions are not the best.)
1. Zulu. Seems like it might get a bit overpowered. If you win a fight, you double the number of your armies, but more likely, all you're doing is adding to your battle hand size. Seems like it would be an easy way to get to a military victory. Maybe not ..?
2. Zulu. Also, I would fix the bottom line in the ability. Which part works only in despotism? The village line? Or that and the 'getting a figure for a figure' line? Move the bottom line up and have it say: "The following abilities only function when in Despotism:" Or something like that.
3. Babylonian Fortifications. They count as an Army figure. Does this mean that I might get the +2 hand size? Or that I get the +2 hand size AND +3 strength? Would that count against stacking limit? Obviously, easily explainable - but worth considering. Do you think that getting city walls in every city and fortifications is balanced? China's ability should be easy to compare to the Babylonians.
4. Babylonians start with Code of Laws, but NOT Republic?
5. Sioux. Interesting mechanics. And since Great People can be picked up and moved, just like the city, that allows for some permanent enhancements to each city, unlike the potentially unstable buildings. Can the metropolis move too?
6. Sioux. Wonders stay? You need to be more specific. Wonders stay in place? Or Wonders stay in the outskirts and move with the town?
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Andreas H.
Germany
Frankfurt
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Re: Selfmade Civilizations
Thanks first of all for your response.
Indeed I need to be sometimes more specific.
1. Well I think they arent that overpowered. As you mentioned "all" you get is a bigger hand-size, and other players can easily avoid battle with you.
2.Good point.
3.Well, to be honest, I never thought about that. In this case I wouldn´t give them the hand-size + and they didnt count against the stacking limit. Of course they get a boost against the chinese in defence but the chinese are more a cultural civ. the babylonians only have their defence.
4.Yeah you caught me. Didnt have the "republic-logo" 
5.Good point again. Well since this mechanic shows the "nomad style" of the red indinas, Id say that the metropolis cant move. Its more a city than a tribe.
6. I wanted to say that wonders dont get destroyed but stay in this place. If you move your city back, you can use the powers again. (of course other civs can too if they build near it)
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Re: Selfmade Civilizations
Some good ideas you've got there!
You wanted some opinions so here they are...
I will start with...
Zulu
I consider the start with a general marker ability a sub-set of an already used ability (the Americans' start with a random great person), so this does not work for me.
I think the ability is too specific as well. For instance, the Egyptian doesn't start with the pyramids wonder, they start with a random ancient wonder.
I would consider something more interesting. Perhaps start with a basic building of their choice. Then you start with a strategic choice (your could even pick the barracks for a similar effect as the present one). Or start with two random hut markers. To emphasize the Tribal nature of the Zulu. Just some suggestions.
Also, if I were you I would streamline the other ability as well. Something like this perhaps: Each time the Zulu win a battle they may place an army figure in the square of the battle (unless the stacking limit is already reached). You could remove the "army" word if you want to include scouts as well (but that might prove too powerful).
With this kind of wording you will avoid confusing situations like:
* the defeated enemy has both a scout and an army figure in the same square.
* your stacking limit does not allow you to place any more figures in this square.
Or another suggestion is to absorb units rather than figures:
At the end of a battle that the Zulu have won, they may choose one of their opponent's killed units and add it to their standing army.
or if this is too strong you might use this instead:
At the end of a battle that the Zulu have won, their opponent must choose one of its killed units. The Zulu may choose to add this unit to their standing army.
Lastly, most of the pictures of the leaders are 3/4 or 1/2 body pictures, where as yours is more like a portrait. I think it looks kind of weird, especially with the right side just clipped of. I would consider using another picture.
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Andreas H.
Germany
Frankfurt
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Re: Selfmade Civilizations
I understand, that for you the Great General is too specific but I wanted them to be purely Military and Letting them Start with such a Person Directs the Zulu Player to an aggressiv Play from the Start on.
Im Quite happy with My sioux Portrait. Its sometimes Hard to find appropiate pics.
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Alan F.
United States
Massachusetts
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Re: Selfmade Civilizations
I don't like them.
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Ron Hills
United States
Grovetown
Georgia
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Re: Selfmade Civilizations
Halpo wrote: I don't like them.
... that was constructive. Are there specific reasons why you don't like them?
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Alan F.
United States
Massachusetts
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Re: Selfmade Civilizations
The selected civilizations, except for the Babylonians, have had very little historical impact.
The cards are poorly worded.
The Zulu's first ability is too specific.
The Babylonian abilities are only useful for warding off nearby military players, which is only really very helpful under the condition that you have any military players near you, that said military players don't have a weaker option nearby that they would've targeted even if you didn't have your defensive abilities, and that you already have five units in your hand (since building a unit is generally better than receiving a combat bonus).
The Sioux's great person ability is unthematic.
And that's all.
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Andreas H.
Germany
Frankfurt
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Re: Selfmade Civilizations
The selected civilizations, except for the Babylonians, have had very little historical impact.
The cards are poorly worded.
Well, sorry for that but I´m no native speaker. So maybe you will try to help me, making them better 
I selected civilizations, which I always loved in the computer game. It´s okay if you don´t like my selection.
The Zulu's first ability is too specific
Okay, I understand. I already stated my opinion one post above about that point. If you have another suggestion for giving them a military boost... here you go!
The Babylonian abilities are only useful for warding off nearby military players, which is only really very helpful under the condition that you have any military players near you, that said military players don't have a weaker option nearby that they would've targeted even if you didn't have your defensive abilities, and that you already have five units in your hand (since building a unit is generally better than receiving a combat bonus).
Okay, that´s the first real argument of you! Sure it´s purely defensive, but with that the Babylonians can develop a real cultur machine without having to fear other players to attack them.
In our games, the only problem in just producing cultur always was that some players attacked that player to stop him. I wanted them to get a thematic (walls of babylon) skill, which is different from the mechanics from all other civs. And I think it´s quite usefull.
I also think that there is ALWAYS any military player near you. (doesnt have to be a military civ).
Actually I thought about letting them produce the markers for EXCEEDING hammers. This may "force" the Babylonian to produce this markers more.
The Sioux's great person ability is unthematic.
And that's all.
1. Let´s don´t say "great persons" just say "chieftains"? More thematic?..
2. This skill is linked to their second, because if moving cities the persons can move with them. Buildings get destroyed if leaving the outskirts, so I thought that getting great persons was a cool option.
Anyway thanks for your post.
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Andreas H.
Germany
Frankfurt
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Re: Selfmade Civilizations
Hinnyboy wrote: Or start with two random hut markers. To emphasize the Tribal nature of the Zulu. Just some suggestions.
Hey there, just thought about this option and I think I will change the first ability of the Zulu to this one.
Thanks for your input 
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Re: Selfmade Civilizations
Babylonians
First, their starting tech is already taken by the Romans and I strongly believe all civilizations should have unique starting techs. Sure the Babylonians were first with constructing a Code of Laws in real life, and this would have been the obvious choice for me too if it wasn't already taken, but they were also first with Philosophy (based on this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Babylonia#Philosophy).
I would consider giving them Philosophy as starting tech instead (then you would also avoid the Republic issue that is already mentioned).
I guess with your first ability you want to represent the Walls of Babylon from civ 5. I think it is a great idea!
In order to not render the Masonry tech (and The Great Wall wonder) completely useless for the Babylonians perhaps you could use the following ability instead:
The Babylonians may place a fortification marker on each new city they build (and on their capital during setup).
It would also further differentiate them from the Chinese starting ability.
I agree with Halpo on the second ability. It's not very useful unless you spam it, in my opinion. I can't think of any reason to use this ability other than to block a one-square-wide land passage between two bodies of water or perhaps to protect your scouts from harm. And if you spam it, you could create a wall or something similar. But wouldn't the Romans (Hadrian's Wall) or Chinese (the Great Wall of China) be more suited to create long walls that cut through large landmasses? The Walls of Babylon was not of this kind, rather they were city walls protecting the city (as you have already represented with your first ability).
The rules of this is also not very clear; does cities produce this fortification? Even thought it is not in their outskirts? It deviates too much from the present rules in my opinion and offers too many strange situations (could you wall in your opponent's capital for instance? What happens if the fortification markers are all in use? In addition to the things already mentioned).
In addition you said it represent the Walls of Babylon, but you already have that represented with the first ability.
Sorry if this sound harsh but I think you really need to change this ability if this civilization is to work. You could perhaps focus on other attributes of the Babylonians then just the walls. Here are some things I found when searching on the civ series computer games:
In Civ 5 they have an ability named "Ingenuity".
In Civ 3 they are described as being "Scientific & Religious".
This leads my mind to an ability with tech focus. For instance, The Babylonians do not lower their trade dial when researching a level 1 tech. This would also represent their early development as a civilization.
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Re: Selfmade Civilizations
Sioux
The first ability is cool. Why not allow them to draw a great person card? They only get to use this ability twice each game anyway so it's not that over-powered (or three times if they get a city conquered).
The second ability is really cool! But it's seems strange that you would make an exception for wonders. No other game effect allow a building or wonder to exist without a city, why this time? It just adds to the complexity of this ability. I think it is better to treat them like buildings and destroy them as well.
Also, while this is a VERY interesting ability I don't think it is very useful as it is now. The Sioux could be a little flexible with their production and resources but it doesn't seem to be au pair with other civilization's abilities, in my opinion. Maybe they need a stronger incentive to move around their cities? Maybe one square of movement isn't enough? Maybe if you would allow the cities to move with the Movement Speed of the civilization, would this become more useful (they can escape armies etc.). However you wish to do I think it is wisest to exclude the capital (and thereby also any metropolis) from this ability. This could represent their sacred lands or whatever and they don't want to move form those.
The Sioux also need a starting bonus ability (all other civs gets one)
Just a couple of additional suggestions (food for thought). Now when the Sioux have cities that can move players don't want to build a lot of buildings as they would either make the city permanent or they would be destroyed when moving, wouldn't it be cool if the Sioux could get some benefits from un-built squares. For instance: When the Sioux devotes a city to the arts, all empty grasslands and natural wonders in the city outskirts produce an extra CULTURE. It would symbolize their bound with nature (and would make grasslands useful for something else than spots for placing great persons).
Edit: the word "CULTURE" disappeared from the Sioux ability.
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Andreas H.
Germany
Frankfurt
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Re: Selfmade Civilizations
Thanks again for you very well explained input!
1. Starting Tech:
I´m going to create lots of civilizations, so I will def. come to that point, where I must use same starting techs (otherwise I will have to continue with lvl 3 which will be overpowered).
The Republic issue is also an advantage which I wanted to give to them because I felt like they needed another.
2. City walls in every city and fortification markers:
Hm I was in love with this skill, because I thought it could be extremly usefull, but haven´t playtested it yet.
Your thoughts sound logical. I wanted that Babylonians could create a "wall" around their cities, which act as a second defense.
But you might be right and I will have to change it.
I like your idea of giving them free fortification markers in their newly built cities, but would increase the number to 2 in each city.
3. Second ability:
I´m afraid not turning their trade dial back if researching lvl 1 is too powerfull. I can see the Babylonian researching just lvl 1 techs at the start to use their power to the max. This will give them a MAD boost at the start, although another tech-oriented civ would be nice.
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Andreas H.
Germany
Frankfurt
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Re: Selfmade Civilizations
Hinnyboy wrote: SiouxThe first ability is cool. Why not allow them to draw a great person card? They only get to use this ability twice each game anyway so it's not that over-powered (or three times if they get a city conquered). The second ability is really cool! But it's seems strange that you would make an exception for wonders. No other game effect allow a building or wonder to exist without a city, why this time? It just adds to the complexity of this ability. I think it is better to treat them like buildings and destroy them as well. Also, while this is a VERY interesting ability I don't think it is very useful as it is now. The Sioux could be a little flexible with their production and resources but it doesn't seem to be au pair with other civilization's abilities, in my opinion. Maybe they need a stronger incentive to move around their cities? Maybe one square of movement isn't enough? Maybe if you would allow the cities to move with the Movement Speed of the civilization, would this become more useful (they can escape armies etc.). However you wish to do I think it is wisest to exclude the capital (and thereby also any metropolis) from this ability. This could represent their sacred lands or whatever and they don't want to move form those. The Sioux also need a starting bonus ability (all other civs gets one) Just a couple of additional suggestions (food for thought). Now when the Sioux have cities that can move players don't want to build a lot of buildings as they would either make the city permanent or they would be destroyed when moving, wouldn't it be cool if the Sioux could get some benefits from un-built squares. For instance: When the Sioux devotes a city to the arts, all empty grasslands and natural wonders in the city outskirts produce an extra . It would symbolize their bound with nature (and would make grasslands useful for something else than spots for placing great persons).
Henning, I love your suggestions! It´s great to discuss the game with a person, who really has great unique ideas! Thank you again for this one!
1. Great persons:
I made a mistake in my card. I wanted to include the capital. So three great persons (take this as your starting bonus )
2. Wonders excluded:
Sounds like a valid suggestion. Accepted and will be changed.
3. Movement bonuses:
I was thinking about this, too. (moving around with no bonusses and no buildings)
To increase the movement speed is cool and to link it to the movement of normal figures. But I would limit it to 3 max. (moving 6 squares looks a bit strange)
I also like the idea of giving some terrain bonusses if unbuild and giving them some slide to culture and more great persons was exactly the missing link I was looking for.
I would love take over your suggestion with the natural wonders and the grassland!
Tank you. Updated versions will be online tonight.
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Andreas H.
Germany
Frankfurt
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Re: Selfmade Civilizations
I updated my Sioux and Babylonian according to the statements here in the thread. Thanks again to all for the great input!! (see first post)
I also did some changes in the pics.
@Henning: Sorry the Babylonian again with code of laws, but I´m not going with your "each civ a different starting tech" 
If anyone ist interested in starting-tile-backsides or culture tokens for the three nations, just feel free to contact me.
I´m working on a new Zulu picture and my Vikings + Maya right now.
If anyone has a cool 3/4 Zulu picture, let me know.
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Re: Selfmade Civilizations
I am glad you like some of my suggestions!
Quote: 1. Starting Tech:
I´m going to create lots of civilizations, so I will def. come to that point, where I must use same starting techs (otherwise I will have to continue with lvl 3 which will be overpowered).
The Republic issue is also an advantage which I wanted to give to them because I felt like they needed another.
I think you should avoid it. At least when there are possible alternatives. This helps differentiate the civilizations from each other further... but it is your work and you can do as you wish
Another problem with the Code of Laws (other than it is already used by the Romans) is that the Babylonian never had a republic. It seems strange, thematic wise, if they should start as a republic.
Quote:
I like your idea of giving them free fortification markers in their newly built cities, but would increase the number to 2 in each city.
Maybe it could be formulated like this:
The Babylonians places a fortification marker on their capital at the start of the game, and on each new city they build. Their cities may also have another caravan or fortification marker in addition to this.
Then it becomes clear what to do with additional markers. And it would not be as overly powerful as you would be required to disband an army to reach the full potential. Still powerful but not too powerful.
Quote: I´m afraid not turning their trade dial back if researching lvl 1 is too powerful. I can see the Babylonian researching just lvl 1 techs at the start to use their power to the max. This will give them a MAD boost at the start, although another tech-oriented civ would be nice.
Maybe it is too powerful -- they would research every turn in the beginning of the game as you say -- and maybe it is too similar to the Greek ability as well. It needs some play-testing for sure.
Quote: 1. Great persons:
I made a mistake in my card. I wanted to include the capital. So three great persons (take this as your starting bonus )
Again, this starting bonus has already been used (by the "other" Americans). I think this is an opportunity to create something unique instead. There must be plenty of options we haven't thought of
And there is another problem that you may or may not wish to address. The Sioux now have three different persisting abilities. In the expansion and core game every nation only have 1* starting bonus and 1 or 2 persisting abilities.
*Well, the Russian start with an additional army figure as well as the Communism government. But they also start with a weaker starting tile.
Love the new pictures, by the way!
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Andreas H.
Germany
Frankfurt
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Re: Selfmade Civilizations
Added the Maya. Dindt know what starting tech to give them and just put philosophy as a "dummy" in there. Suggestions?
@Henning: Updated the Babylonian. I think the tech-ability might get play-tested. For now I will leave it in there.
I´m quite happy with the Sioux right now. Don´t think that I will change them again
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Re: Selfmade Civilizations
Just a suggestion:
The Babylonians start with 2 extra artillery units.
When defending a city, the Babylonians add 1 to their battle hand size.
After the Babylonians research a level 1 tech, they retain all of their TRADE on their dial.
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Re: Selfmade Civilizations
ahdiabolo wrote: Added the Maya. Dindt know what starting tech to give them and just put philosophy as a "dummy" in there. Suggestions?
Mysticism feels most thematic I think. But philosophy give access to temples which is kind of thematic as well.
ahdiabolo wrote: I´m quite happy with the Sioux right now. Don´t think that I will change them again
Sure, that's OK
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Andreas H.
Germany
Frankfurt
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Re: Selfmade Civilizations - Zulu, Babylonian, Sioux, Maya
updated the Zulu and added the Vikings (see first post)
Would be nice to hear some thoughts about the skills of the two new ones.
(I´m afraid the Viking power may get too powerful).
Maybe you have some suggestions for the "pillage-theme"
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Alan F.
United States
Massachusetts
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The Viking's first ability requires Sailing. It is useless until the player is able to research a level two tech, and even then it'd probably just be better to get Irrigation and have two normal cities.
I also don't recall the Vikings ever building their settlements on top of bodies of waters. I may not know much about their history, but I highly doubt that any medieval cultures knew how to construct floating cities.
Investment ability is cool though.
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Halpo wrote: The Viking's first ability requires Sailing. It is useless until the player is able to research a level two tech, and even then it'd probably just be better to get Irrigation and have two normal cities.
I also don't recall the Vikings ever building their settlements on top of bodies of waters. I may not know much about their history, but I highly doubt that any medieval cultures knew how to construct floating cities.
Investment ability is cool though.
I'm no expert on Vikings, but I've gone to school in Denmark since the 3rd grade, and while I remember being taught about the Vikings (especially 3rd to 9th grade), I certainly don't remember anything about buildings on water. 
My translation of Viking knowledge and associations to Civ would be: Trade, sailing/navigation and melee combat.
Based on that, I have a couple of suggestions for the Viking civ bonus:
- Vikings get to build a Market/Trading Post for 6 production, AND without having researched Currency/Code of Laws.
- Movement over water only counts HALF. So, moving a figure over two water tiles would only cost one movement point.
- Vikings start with two extra infantry units, but no artillery unit.
- Once per battle, you may simulate  BERZERKER-MODE by playing ONE infantry unit ONE level higher than you have unlocked. If you are at level 4 infantry, add 1 to the unit's strength AND health. Berzerker infantry also trumps infantry units.
Anyways: Sehr gutes arbeit, Andreas!
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Alan F.
United States
Massachusetts
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UbikValis wrote:
My translation of Viking knowledge and associations to Civ would be: Trade, sailing/navigation and melee combat.
Based on that, I have a couple of suggestions for the Viking civ bonus:
- Vikings get to build a Market/Trading Post for 6 production, AND without having researched Currency/Code of Laws.
- Movement over water only counts HALF. So, moving a figure over two water tiles would only cost one movement point.
- Vikings start with two extra infantry units, but no artillery unit.
So what happens if I move over one water tile? Nothing?
I don't believe the Vikings were known for their markets either.
Your final suggestion is just a nerfed version of one of Germany's abilities. And I don't see how it applies thematically.
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Halpo wrote:
So what happens if I move over one water tile? Nothing?
Well, I guess that would just still count as one move. I supposed it can become useful to do suprise attacks on your enemies, especially later in the game when your movement might be 5 or 6.
Halpo wrote:
I don't believe the Vikings were known for their markets either.
I suppose not, but trade with the wide world around them was sort of one of their strengths. Markets and Trading Posts represent that aspect of civilization in the game, so obviously this would be another way to give them a slight (and thematic) advantage.
Halpo wrote:
Your final suggestion is just a nerfed version of one of Germany's abilities.
So?
Halpo wrote:
And I don't see how it applies thematically.
Pretty much ALL description and/or depiction of Vikings that I have seen and read focus on the helmeted (sometimes with horns) melee warrior. I don't really associate them with artillery. But like I said before, I'm no expert.
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Andreas H.
Germany
Frankfurt
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@Pillage: I´m glad you like it. I was afraid, that it could be too powerful.
@Water: I wanted to show the relationship "water-vikings" with this ability. Thought it was a quite cool ability (your right. didn´t recognize, that it needs navigation. will change that!)
Other abilities, which came to my mind were:
a. water gives +1 (hammer, trade etc)
but that might be too similar to my third Sioux skill.
b. Link it to trade (like "when harvesting a ressource. water counts as silk, wheat etc")
This might be too similar to the Indian skill.
This "building on water" might not be 100% historical correct and I understand if you don´t like it, because of that, but I think it´s a cool and interesting mechanic.
If you are offering better suggestions, I´m willing to change that
@giving them more meelee andn o artillery:
I have to agree with Halpo. This is too similar to the Germans
Another suggestion:
"The Vikings start the game with two trading posts. These (and any other build later on) can be placed on water"
But that might be too specific and I would have to change the starting tech, which fits thematically quite perfectly.
What about the Maya?
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Posted Mon Feb 6, 2012 4:09 pm
