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Subject: "Swapping" when retreating? rss

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Remy Suen
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In Western Europe, a player is controlling Normandie, Île-de-France, Bourbon, and Genève. Assume they are safe and have Forts in them so there is no ambiguity about whether these Provinces are Free or not.

There is one Barbarian each in both Anjou and Provence at 2/2. The player moves one Archer from Bourbon to Anjou and one Archer from Bourbon to Provence. The Archers are fought back after taking two damage and retreat back to Bourbon thanks to the Commander ability. Both Barbarians also take two damage each and are forced to retreat. Do the two Barbarians disappear into the wilderness or do they "swap" places as there is an adjacent Barbarian Province to retreat to (Anjou -> Provence and Provence -> Anjou)?
 
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Darrell Hanning
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Since all combat is resolved sequentially, and not simultaneously, the retreat from the first combat could not be into the location of the second combat.
 
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Remy Suen
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DarrellKH wrote:
Since all combat is resolved sequentially, and not simultaneously, the retreat from the first combat could not be into the location of the second combat.

If that is the case, I guess the active player would choose the order in which the battles are resolved.

Now if combat is resolved sequentially, then Provence is technically still a Barbarian Province when the fight in Anjou is over. Why wouldn't the Barbarians be able to retreat to Provence? Did I miss something in the rules that says an Army cannot retreat to a Province that has a pending battle to resolve?

Another question, are retreated Armies considered when determining whether the defender owns a Province?

Say I am France and I move an Army into Anjou and drive the Barbarians north into Normandie where there is already one Barbarian Army there. Now the player controlling England moves an Army south from Wessex into Normandie. That player's unit is wounded and retreats but not without first dealing sufficient damage to cause the healthy Barbarian Army in Normandie to retreat. That Barbarian Army flees to Calais, but what about the retreated Barbarian Army that was originally from Anjou? I guess it is still there since it was not dealt any damage so Normandie remains a Barbarian Province.
 
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Andrei Novac
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The swap is not possible.

This is how the Maneuvering phase works for France:
- move armies - at this point, both Provence and Anjou are attacked; in each of them there is one Barbarian and one player army
- solve battles - damage is assigned; every army, Barbarian and player, need to retreat. For player armies, there's no question. The Barbarians must retreat to a free province or a Barbarian province. Niether Provence, nor Anjou are either free or Barbarian (there are player armies inside each of them). The decision is made for the Barbarians to be removed from the game (since there's no province that satisfies the retreat conditions).

I guess that even though the attacker has the priority of deciding where to retreat, the actual retreat happens after all the decisions are made.

rcjsuen wrote:
In Western Europe, a player is controlling Normandie, Île-de-France, Bourbon, and Genève. Assume they are safe and have Forts in them so there is no ambiguity about whether these Provinces are Free or not.

There is one Barbarian each in both Anjou and Provence at 2/2. The player moves one Archer from Bourbon to Anjou and one Archer from Bourbon to Provence. The Archers are fought back after taking two damage and retreat back to Bourbon thanks to the Commander ability. Both Barbarians also take two damage each and are forced to retreat. Do the two Barbarians disappear into the wilderness or do they "swap" places as there is an adjacent Barbarian Province to retreat to (Anjou -> Provence and Provence -> Anjou)?
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Darrell Hanning
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Andrei, are you stating that combat in different locations for the same player is considered to be resolved simultaneously?

Because if you are, that suggests some improbable situations.
 
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Andrei Novac
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Yes, for the same player, combat in multiple provinces is resolves simultaneously.

Could you details those situations please?

DarrellKH wrote:
Andrei, are you stating that combat in different locations for the same player is considered to be resolved simultaneously?

Because if you are, that suggests some improbable situations.
 
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Darrell Hanning
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anovac wrote:
Yes, for the same player, combat in multiple provinces is resolves simultaneously.

Could you details those situations please?

DarrellKH wrote:
Andrei, are you stating that combat in different locations for the same player is considered to be resolved simultaneously?

Because if you are, that suggests some improbable situations.


Well, now that I've thought about it, I'm stumped - maybe it doesn't, so long as no units can ever enter another location in which combat was also occurring. It just seems so bizarre, as the overwhelming majority of games involving combat resolve it in different locations in a sequential fashion.
 
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Remy Suen
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anovac wrote:
The swap is not possible.

Thanks for clarifying, Andrei.

rcjsuen wrote:
Another question, are retreated Armies considered when determining whether the defender owns a Province?

Say I am France and I move an Army into Anjou and drive the Barbarians north into Normandie where there is already one Barbarian Army there. Now the player controlling England moves an Army south from Wessex into Normandie. That player's unit is wounded and retreats but not without first dealing sufficient damage to cause the healthy Barbarian Army in Normandie to retreat. That Barbarian Army flees to Calais, but what about the retreated Barbarian Army that was originally from Anjou? I guess it is still there since it was not dealt any damage so Normandie remains a Barbarian Province.

And for this case, the Barbarian still controls the Province and it is not Free, correct?
 
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Andrei Novac
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that's ok.
I know that in most games combats are solved one by one. I tried to implement here a strategic system in which players can take advantage of this simultaneous combat, which I also find to be closer to real-life.

The situations like the one described by Remy are very rare, but they can happen and I believe they bring up interesting mechanics, different from other games.

DarrellKH wrote:
anovac wrote:
Yes, for the same player, combat in multiple provinces is resolves simultaneously.

Could you details those situations please?

DarrellKH wrote:
Andrei, are you stating that combat in different locations for the same player is considered to be resolved simultaneously?

Because if you are, that suggests some improbable situations.


Well, now that I've thought about it, I'm stumped - maybe it doesn't, so long as no units can ever enter another location in which combat was also occurring. It just seems so bizarre, as the overwhelming majority of games involving combat resolve it in different locations in a sequential fashion.
 
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Remy Suen
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anovac wrote:
- solve battles - damage is assigned; every army, Barbarian and player, need to retreat.

A player's Army will always retreat first, correct?

That is, if a player controls Pomeranea, Oldenburg, Palentenate, and Bayern and he moves all his units from Bayern to engage some Barbarians in Brandenburg and has an equal battle, the player can retreat to Bayern first before the Barbarians and force the Barbarians to disappear, correct?
 
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Andrei Novac
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Quote:
And for this case, the Barbarian still controls the Province and it is not Free, correct?


Yes, that's correct.
 
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Andrei Novac
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rcjsuen wrote:
anovac wrote:
- solve battles - damage is assigned; every army, Barbarian and player, need to retreat.

A player's Army will always retreat first, correct?

That is, if a player controls Pomeranea, Oldenburg, Palentenate, and Bayern and he moves all his units from Bayern to engage some Barbarians in Brandenburg and has an equal battle, the player can retreat to Bayern first before the Barbarians and force the Barbarians to disappear, correct?


Again, that's true. The player always chooses where to retreat before the Barbarians because the player is always the attacker.
 
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