Sam Mercer
United Kingdom
Southampton
Hampshire
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Yeah man, business partner = good move.
...But bad business partner = end of life 
I would probably second Bens advice (p.s. cowboy ganmes! lol) in that boardgame pubslishers I THINK are way cooler than book publishers.
Because these guys are all mostly indy guys and in to games themselves - I have a suspicion that you would get a way better service and better deal with these guys than say, hasbro or games workshop (which resemble the more corporate world of books).
I mean some like the new UK - Haunted HourGlass ( http://www.hauntedhourglass.co.uk/) specifically say that you will have control of your project. I would at least approach one initially and ask his thoughts (honestly: try with indy boards and cards, he seems nice) and ask as to "the kind of thing that happens in boardgame publishing" because they will tell you and they will be cool.
But it does seem that you have a nice pedegree to become a publisher yourself - this must be a slowly slowly progress and even if you do do this route (self publishing) then you need to know what kind of things happen in the publishing world (hint: ask indy boards and cards whats up?!).
To do the "hoorah look at me thing" can be as big or small as you want to make it also. The more you do - the more people will see you. Intially without getting into it seriously (my brain is fried at mo you see) I ould prepare a media release statment and send it off to any website with any form of relation to "boardgames", and in the statemnt, tell them why your game is unique - that should do well in the first instance. then of course reviews from other people (without causing too many problems, I don't think Tom Vassals reviews are any more or less special than thousands of others) but its down to you to get your game to them - you could even ask for the demo copy back tbh and pay postage, so there are always possibilities.
After all of this, if you do succeed in kickstarter, currently (from my exact eye analysing every single kickstarter project and interviewing aquin about DDay Dice - the biggest ever kickstarter succes, and contribbing at purple pawn and interviewing the cofounder of Kickstarter - Yancey Strickler etc etc.) You WILL get some new fans after going to kickstarter, but you need a big 'ol attack plan for it. luckily for you thought you have something that (a weirdly large number) of people do not: an actual finished game.
ATTACK PLAN
1. Submit tact decks to as many game competitions as you can
2. Create a GOOD blog (check out Steve's recent gunship blog)
3. Send out a crap load of generic (well written!) press releases to everyone
4. Buy a load of site ads (purple pawn / fortress ameritrash / etc.)
5. Send personalised emails to reviewrs and see if htey would review your game
6. Talk about the game lots
7. Go to a con if you can (this = big big points)
8. Take some sexy pictures of your game
9. Become Springboard approved (apparantly a very good distributer speicalising in kickstarter)
10. Kickstarter Away
11. Offer some rewards that are collectively worth an immense amount, priced "too good to be true" and become hit success like dday dice 
n.b. brain fried today, may be bad advice (lol), hopefully not
kisses & hugz
sam
xoxoxo
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Eric Etkin
United States
New York
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This might be a crazy question, but should I be doing some of these before going to KickStarter? It seems to me I'd want a finished (ie. playtested 2nd edition) game and an already in-process KS campaign, no?
1. Submit tact decks to as many game competitions as you can
3. Send out a crap load of generic (well written!) press releases to everyone
4. Buy a load of site ads (purple pawn / fortress ameritrash / etc.)
5. Send personalised emails to reviewrs and see if htey would review your game
Here's the other thing with #1 - I've already given out sooooooo many free games. How the hell do I ensure they actually get played? It seems like I give away game after game, and get nothing back but crickets.
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Sam Mercer
United Kingdom
Southampton
Hampshire
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No man, thats a fine question - "Go on Kickstarter" is point 10.
1-9 should be done before - eg now.
Ideally point 1 should be started about a year before the kickstarter
Point 2 should be started and worked on about 3 months before
3-8 you can just crack on with ^^
How can you assure tjat your game is played? Well that's a tricky bit, normally bare faced humility, smotional tourture and repetetive nagging works.
you could try some contract or other but that would probably alienate the people as opposed to inspiring them. probably some tortured and pained "PLEASE EITHER REVIEW IT OR SEND IT BACK I AM PENNILESS PLEASE!!" will probably work best.
Rememeber that kickstarter is a round-about preorder system. What ever is stopping me going to your (very nice) tact decks website and pressing "order" will stop me exactly the same on kickstarter. You need fans to sell - if you say "send me $20 to my paypal and ill email you" or "pledge on my kickstarter" or "buy my game on gamecrafter" or "download my pnp game and print and play away" - whatever way you do it, you will need fans ready to step up to the plate and buy your stuff!
Kickstarter is NOT a fan-generating mechanism (and remember as before I said, it probably will give you one or two new guys and gals but is no substitute for some good old fashioned marketing and praise singing).
The best games on kickstarter (as previously listed) all had a ton of fans before hand, that's why they were succesful. In a nutshell - its mostly that.
x
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Drew Dallas
United States
Tennessee
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I don't know your game but instead of sending out physical copies couldn't you just create a Lackey/OCTGN/Vassel plugin so people could play virtually. I wouldn't do this for the big name reviewers but to just drum up interest and let people see the game it might work well.
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Eric Etkin
United States
New York
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Thanks Sam - I don't suppose you have any pointers for finding some diligent players that would actually learnt he game and play it at game competitions, do you?
It seems like an easy prospect, but - well, I'm sure you know - it's like pulling teeth trying to find one person, let alone cohesive player groups, that are willing to try a game that doesn't have ads or publishing muscle behind it.
Not to detract from the game itself - but you'd think if a guy can post a demo call for something like Summoner Wars (a game that already has many players) here on BGG and get plenty more interested takers, the same would hold small-time, lesser known games as well... but that's clearly not the case. A game is a game - unless you've never heard of it, then it becomes a pariah.
It's the same phenomonon I noticed at the first con I attended - there were probably 30-40 MtG players in literal spitting distance the next table over, and not one even came over to my demo table during the 4 hours I was sitting there - even with a cute girl at my booth.
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Eric Etkin
United States
New York
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Darksbane wrote: I don't know your game but instead of sending out physical copies couldn't you just create a Lackey/OCTGN/Vassel plugin so people could play virtually. I wouldn't do this for the big name reviewers but to just drum up interest and let people see the game it might work well.
Yeah - actually one of my playtesters is working on that. I've seen the module about 85% complete so far, and it's looking pretty good. It's no frills, but the play seems nearly identical.
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Nicholas Vitek
United States
Houston
Texas
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Eric,
If you would like, send me an updated copy. I'll play it (Living Worlds Games), I'll have Kevin Brusky (APE Games) and I'll get 10 playtesters (Greatest bunch of playtesters ever) to play it.
From there, you'll have shown it to 2 publishers, plus a well published game designer who can give advice as to where to send it (He's been very successful getting other people's games into the right hands) if neither Kevin or I are up for publishing it. You'll also get some valuable playtester notes.
Additionally, I'll send the copy back afterwards so you aren't out anything but a single flat-rate shipping.
Nich
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Eric Etkin
United States
New York
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Nich wrote: Eric,
If you would like, send me an updated copy. I'll play it (Living Worlds Games), I'll have Kevin Brusky (APE Games) and I'll get 10 playtesters (Greatest bunch of playtesters ever) to play it.
From there, you'll have shown it to 2 publishers, plus a well published game designer who can give advice as to where to send it (He's been very successful getting other people's games into the right hands) if neither Kevin or I are up for publishing it. You'll also get some valuable playtester notes.
Additionally, I'll send the copy back afterwards so you aren't out anything but a single flat-rate shipping.
Nich
Nich - I appreciate the offer! Let me see how soon I can part with my own copy (depends on when the POD can deliver more). Between you and Sam, I'd be completely out - which is fine, provided I have a few more on the way. I don't like not having a physical copy of my game lying around.
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Nicholas Vitek
United States
Houston
Texas
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Offer remains open for you until you get around to it. No rush on my part. We are currently getting 1 game ready for the printers and 2 games completely finished for future releases.
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Eric Etkin
United States
New York
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Nich wrote: Offer remains open for you until you get around to it. No rush on my part. We are currently getting 1 game ready for the printers and 2 games completely finished for future releases.
Good to know! But if I don't have anything from the printer relatively soon, I'll send you my personal deck.
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Nicholas Vitek
United States
Houston
Texas
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No problem, you have my address in your store. I picked up an early copy of your original release but haven't played it yet.
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I might just send my playtest copy to you, Nicholas. It's looking like I won't really get to do any serious playtesting for the next couple of months, which isn't fair to Eric. Damn school, always eating up my funtime!
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Levi Mote
United States
Albany
Oregon
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There is a wealth of great advice / information in this thread, but as usual I have a few more questions.
Set-up first, then my questions.
We would like to release Ruse (our upcoming Steampunk Murder Mystery Card Game) in an embossed and printed tin (the flip top kind band-aids used to come in when I was a kid AKA the 70s) through our distributor. This requires a minimum run of 5k tins so we would be using an offset press to manufacture the cards and the rules sheet. This also allows us to get the per unit price down to approximately 1/4 of our MSRP (which allows us to distribute the game cost-effectively). This is something that we cannot afford to fund ourselves and we would need to get a Kickstart to the tune of $25k to pay for manufacturing / taxes / fees / advertising / etc...
Question time!
The wisdom I have gleaned from this thread is that I should be sending out games to reviewers before I run the Kickstart, but not to send unfinished prototypes to reviewers. I can get a nicely packaged PoD version of the cards in a traditional tuck box, but the card / packaging quality will not be the same as the final offset printed / embossed tin packaged version.
My first thought on a solution for this is to be very selective about the reviewers I approach and making sure they understand that these are preview copies and not final production copies of the game.
Also, am I on the right track on what Kickstarter funding should cover? I have seen many game projects get funded for a couple thousand dollars, but these haven't shown up on my local shelves. My guess is that they failed to account for all of the associated costs of producing their game. Is there anything I am leaving out of my target $ amount?
Apologies for the long post and copious use of parenthesis.
http://www.boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/118315/ruse
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When you guys say kickstarting the dream do you mean the funding the dream podcast?
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Eric Etkin
United States
New York
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Levi - having done a decent (but not exhaustive) amount of printing cost legwork already, IMO if you're offering a game comprised entirely of cards, a 25K goal is WAY too high, and you risk no one backing you because they'll think you won't reach your goal (see how it's a self-fulfilling prophecy?).
Personally? I'd rethink the tin. i tried looking into that myself, and found the minimum order quantity too high.
What's the tin adding to your game? You can get a sturdy, attractive custom box made for about $1.50 to $2.00 a pop, and using a cardboard box in turn will also greatly reduce your minimum order quantity with a manufacturer. Those tins are special order - if you're going for a turn-key manufacurer (everything arriving on your (or your distributor's) doorstep in the tin, all ready for sale), then the manufacturer is almost certainly subcontracting the tin to a different manufacturer anyway - and that's likely why you'd get a high minimum on your RFQ... and need a 25K Kickstarter goal.
The sweet spot I've seen for minimum order quantities seems to be around 2500 - 5000 units (at the small-publisher level). If you're like me, you can go as low as 1000 pieces, but that'll jack up your per unit price pretty heavy - but that'll still slash your KS goal by at least half.
Rethink the tin.
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Eric Etkin
United States
New York
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kurthl33t wrote: I might just send my playtest copy to you, Nicholas. It's looking like I won't really get to do any serious playtesting for the next couple of months, which isn't fair to Eric. Damn school, always eating up my funtime!
Nate - if you truly don't think you'll get around to it in the next couple months, I'd really appreciate that. I can send you a new deck when I'm restocked and you're ready.
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MOTHDevil wrote: kurthl33t wrote: I might just send my playtest copy to you, Nicholas. It's looking like I won't really get to do any serious playtesting for the next couple of months, which isn't fair to Eric. Damn school, always eating up my funtime! Nate - if you truly don't think you'll get around to it in the next couple months, I'd really appreciate that. I can send you a new deck when I'm restocked and you're ready.
Will do.
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Eric Etkin
United States
New York
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kurthl33t wrote: MOTHDevil wrote: kurthl33t wrote: I might just send my playtest copy to you, Nicholas. It's looking like I won't really get to do any serious playtesting for the next couple of months, which isn't fair to Eric. Damn school, always eating up my funtime! Nate - if you truly don't think you'll get around to it in the next couple months, I'd really appreciate that. I can send you a new deck when I'm restocked and you're ready. Will do.
Awesome!
Nich, would you mind Geekmailing Nate your address?
I totally remember sending you a V1 now - seems like ages ago ... The revision is lightyears ahead, at least visually
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J
United States
San Diego
California
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Moved to the kickstarter forum
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Eric Etkin
United States
New York
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Holy crap, that was hard to relocate. 
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Levi Mote
United States
Albany
Oregon
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MOTHDevil wrote:
Rethink the tin.
Thanks for the advice Eric.
Without the tins, we would need $16k - $18k for 5,000 tuck boxed units, fees, advertising, etc.
As far as the tins go, we have a manufacturer in Canada who will make them and ship them to the offset printer who will place the shrink wrapped decks in the tins and shrink wrap the filled tins and ship those completed units to the distributor. So no subcontracting involved.
With an MSRP of $14.99 we would need to pre-sell 1,668 units to cover the $25k (tins included) Kickstarter.
We could drop our MSRP to $9.99 if we went with the tuck boxes and $18k funding with the same pre-sell.
Any help with the reviewing question is appreciated as well.
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Drew Dallas
United States
Tennessee
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Personally as a consumer you're much more likely to get me to shell out $10 on your game than $15. This is a card game, a fancy tin does nothing for me and storage options are numerous and easy to find for such games. If 33% of the games MSRP is determined by the box it is in I'd say that the expensive box needs to go.
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Eric Etkin
United States
New York
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levimote wrote: MOTHDevil wrote:
Rethink the tin.
Thanks for the advice Eric. Without the tins, we would need $16k - $18k for 5,000 tuck boxed units, fees, advertising, etc. As far as the tins go, we have a manufacturer in Canada who will make them and ship them to the offset printer who will place the shrink wrapped decks in the tins and shrink wrap the filled tins and ship those completed units to the distributor. So no subcontracting involved. With an MSRP of $14.99 we would need to pre-sell 1,668 units to cover the $25k (tins included) Kickstarter. We could drop our MSRP to $9.99 if we went with the tuck boxes and $18k funding with the same pre-sell. Any help with the reviewing question is appreciated as well.
Without getting into the dollar specifics of what's going where, if I divide 16k by 5000 units, we come out to $3.20 a pack. For a game that's comprised of a mere 52 cards and a tuck box, that seems REALLY high to me. Really, REALLY high.
Variables I don't know (some of which I don't know if you'd want to share here):
- How much advertising and marketing your budget accounts for.
- What format your instructions take (small card? Booklet?)
- How much you're paying for art.
- How much shipping costs are for 5000 packs of cards.
Now granted, those four things are probably going to add to a sizable amount. Most guys that do Kickstarter, at least from what I've seen recently, seem to supplement the total budget with their own dollars or other investors. Ergo, if a budget is say - $16k, it wouldn't be unheard of for the designer and his associates to pony up anywhere between 5 - 8k of that. Maybe more. And this would drop your goal down to a more reasonable $8 - 11k.
Don't underestimate the power of assumption. If the general backer suspects a 52-card tuck box game won't hit 16k, you won't get your funding.
Also - consider upping your MSRP a couple bucks. $11.95 would seem reasonable to me IF the product looks great and IF you can sell the general public on the theme/backstory. A $10 MSRP could be low-balling yourself.
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Eric Etkin
United States
New York
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Also - Review wise:
Take a page from my experience with Dice Tower and learn from my mistakes. Send out an "A-quality" beta only. The box doesn't have to be there, and I suspect most reviewers won't care about the box, but definitely consider sending out decks IF your artwork and layout is finalized and you're confident in your playtesting results and the presentation of your rules.
Make sure the reviewer knows it IS a review copy, and I think you'll be ok.
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