Hank Drew
United States
Sunnyvale
California
-
OK. Thanks to Jason for reminding me why the geek forums are useless. Other posts deleted so as not to interfere in your forum.
-
James Ludlow
United States
Saint Louis Park
Minnesota
-
scamper wrote: Considering how important the deed deck is, this is a huge concern in my opinion especially in the early game.
What deed deck are you talking about, and why does it concern you so greatly?
-
Kaiwen Zhang
Canada
Toronto
Ontario
-
you can easily gain 15 cards over the course of a game.
that's like doubling your deck size... plenty changes IMO.
-
Paul Beakley
United States
Tempe
AZ
-
There are also several card effects that allow to winnow or replace cards.
As an exercise you might look at each player's endgame deck to see how they ended up.
-
Jason Rupp
United States
Cedar Rapids
Iowa
-
It seems fine to me. At the start of the game, I can barely kill an orc or a fort but at the end of the game, my deck is so strong that I can destroy a city with 4-5 units. That's a pretty big change if you ask me.
-
Jason Rupp
United States
Cedar Rapids
Iowa
-
Typically 3+ units near the end of the game. 1-2 spells can do the trick with a few advanced actions thrown in.
In a typical game, I usually trash 1-2 cards (I love maximal effect), gain about 2-3 spells, 5-8 advanced actions, 1-2 artifacts and 3-5 units. The last round is a ton of fun once you start drawing entire hands that contain very little base cards.
-
Matt Bush
United States
Shrewsbury
Pennsylvania
-
If this was a dominion-like game I can see it being disappointing at how slow your deck evolves, but this is a very different kind of game.
I think that even the addition of just one or two cards is enough to really alter what you can do in the game. You have to keep in mind that you aren't playing cards one at a time, but multiples in a turn to do different things.
-
neil sorenson
United States
Sterling
Virginia
-
johncraven wrote: ... that's like doubling your deck size... plenty changes IMO.
That's what all those spam emails that I get keep telling me.
Oh... wait a minute... you said DECK size.
Nevermind.
-
Paul Beakley
United States
Tempe
AZ
-
scamper wrote: Well, it is a dominion-like game. From what I've seen the deck is the most important part of the game.
Not to belabor the point, but what parts are not dominion-like that aren't chrome?
Really?
1) You don't churn or manipulate your deck. One time through the deck per round. There are manipulation tricks but they're extremely limited, stuff like "Long Night."
2) You don't build an economic engine that bears much resemblance to Dominion. You're not playing cards to buy actions to buy cards to play more cards to make money to buy cards.
3) Your skills and units exist entirely outside your deck. That's not chrome. The mana pool also exists outside your deck. That's a big big deal.
4) The map presents a broad array of situations and opportunities, all of which need different solutions -- how to get there, how to survive the encounter, how to defeat the enemy. I'm not sure how there's anything even remotely similar in Dominion.
5) Given the structure of MK, scenario play is not only possible but required. I confess I stopped following Dominion after...I don't know, Intrigue maybe? But I don't remember "scenarios" of any kind that alter basic gameplay or victory conditions.
Surely you can't think that "it has an important deck of cards and you're earning victory points" = it's Dominion-like? There must be thousands of games on the geek that rise to that standard.
-
Chris J Davis
United Kingdom
Overtext pending moderation...
-
Agreed - nothing like Dominion.
I found that in my first few games my deed deck didn't change so much, but in later games I would find my deck size doubling.
-
Chris J Davis
United Kingdom
Overtext pending moderation...
-
I think you're having trouble drawing a line between what the game actually is and what you feel it should be.
-
Paul Beakley
United States
Tempe
AZ
-
Every player has their own deck of cards, and that deck changes over time. DOMINION!
-
Guy Srinivasan
United States
Seattle
Washington
-
scamper wrote: Not really. I expect it to be a adventure/rpg hybrid with a deck building, which it is (emphasis added).
I just am not sure the deck building works.
What do you think the game actually is?
No, it's not. Deck building is a very small part of the game. If you play it for the deck building, you will be disappointed, just like if you play Tigris & Euphrates for the empire building you will be disappointed. Sure it's part of the game, but a small part on purpose, and if you play the game as if deck building is one of the main components, you will understandably be confused as to why it doesn't have much of an impact and doesn't come up all the time.
What is Mage Knight about? It's a game about solving tricky puzzles on many turns, about the thrill of watching your character get more powerful or pull off a mega-turn, about the delight of realizing e.g. it's better to spend your Move now to advance rather than hope to draw Attack next turn to achieve some minor goal behind you, about conquering stuff-on-a-map, about laughing as you snipe someone else's orc, and about shaking your head in dismay when you first see all the enemies guarding a city even though you know next round you'll be powerful enough to take them out.
Honestly it's not about watching the power of your deck grow. It's about watching the power of your big turns grow, for me. Some turns you'll just play a Stamina for 4 Move and be done, but in every round you'll have a turn or three where you accomplish something big, like defeating a dungeon or moving 6 hexes or soloing a city, and as your character grows in power those turns will become more epic. Why? Because the sum of your available resources will grow, and your card quality (deckbuilding + hand management + wound management) is just one input to that sum. Big turn power is roughly a combination of being in the right place, handsize, available mana, relevant skills, and card quality. "Deckbuilding" is only part of only one of those five aspects. Off-the-cuff I'd say deckbuilding is maybe (1/3)*(1/5)*(~1/3) = 3% of the game.
(I haven't played the variant in the rulebook specifically included to add more deckbuilding to the game.)
Edit: I forgot about units! Mostly because I think of them as additional handsize. So make that (1/3)*(1/6)*(~1/3) = 2%.
-
Guy Srinivasan
United States
Seattle
Washington
-
scamper wrote: GreedyAlgorithm wrote: scamper wrote: Not really. I expect it to be a adventure/rpg hybrid with a deck building, which it is (emphasis added).
I just am not sure the deck building works.
What do you think the game actually is?
No, it's not. Deck building is a very small part of the game. If you play it for the deck building, you will be disappointed, just like if you play Tigris & Euphrates for the empire building you will be disappointed. Sure it's part of the game, but a small part on purpose, and if you play the game as if deck building is one of the main components, you will understandably be confused as to why it doesn't have much of an impact and doesn't come up all the time. What is Mage Knight about? It's a game about solving tricky puzzles on many turns, about the thrill of watching your character get more powerful or pull off a mega-turn, about the delight of realizing e.g. it's better to spend your Move now to advance rather than hope to draw Attack next turn to achieve some minor goal behind you, about conquering stuff-on-a-map, about laughing as you snipe someone else's orc, and about shaking your head in dismay when you first see all the enemies guarding a city even though you know next round you'll be powerful enough to take them out. Honestly it's not about watching the power of your deck grow. It's about watching the power of your big turns grow, for me. Some turns you'll just play a Stamina for 4 Move and be done, but in every round you'll have a turn or three where you accomplish something big, like defeating a dungeon or moving 6 hexes or soloing a city, and as your character grows in power those turns will become more epic. Why? Because the sum of your available resources will grow, and your card quality (deckbuilding + hand management + wound management) is just one input to that sum. Big turn power is roughly a combination of being in the right place, handsize, available mana, relevant skills, and card quality. "Deckbuilding" is only part of only one of those five aspects. Off-the-cuff I'd say deckbuilding is maybe (1/3)*(1/5)*(~1/3) = 3% of the game. (I haven't played the variant in the rulebook specifically included to add more deckbuilding to the game.) Edit: I forgot about units! Mostly because I think of them as additional handsize. So make that (1/3)*(1/6)*(~1/3) = 2%. so, you do not consider card quality part of deck building?? You don't consider wounds part of deck building? 3% of the game? I'd go 70% and I expect the designer would as well. That would mean you could take away the deck building and have a functional game. Btw, extending your long turns is also one of the big draws on Dominion as well. You are really not selling me on this.
That's how I conceptualize it. It's okay if we look at it differently, but having played thousands of games of Dominion, I can recognize which bits of Mage Knight feel to me like bits of Dominion feel to me and which don't fairly easily. Choosing which Advanced Action, Spell, or Artifact to add to your deck? Feels like deckbuilding to me. Deciding whether to move up to the orcs, block them, and defeat them this turn or to crystallize a mana and just move up to the orcs, waiting to defeat them next turn? Doesn't feel like deckbuilding to me. Deciding whether to take three Wounds and move to a magical glade next turn or take no Wounds and have to re-enter the ruins next turn? Doesn't feel like deckbuilding to me. Those types of decisions are what feed into your card quality on your big turns, and they are in order deckbuilding, hand management, and wound management.
That's just communicating how I think about deckbuilding, not necessarily asking you to think about it in the same way. But yes, if we just remove the choices about which cards to add to your deck I'd say we still have a very functional albeit somewhat worse game.
I'm thinking the disconnect in communication here is that we (those responding to you, and definitely me) don't understand what you mean when you ask about deck building. Actually yes, reviewing the top of the thread, James asked "What deed deck are you talking about, and why does it concern you so greatly?" and you responded "I think I described my problems above."
Can we proceed on the assumption that for whatever reason I wasn't able to get enough information out of your description to adequately answer your question? Can you elaborate, even if it feels like you're condescending to me by describing what should be obvious to me? 'cause it's not obvious. 
Edit: I don't know if I've actually played 2000+ games of Dominion and in retrospect I doubt it. Let's say hundreds instead.
-
Giacomo Leoni
Italy
BOSTON
Massachusetts
-
You never extend your turn (other than the plus one card on the major levels) but you only increase the POWER you can unleash in your turn
-
Paul Beakley
United States
Tempe
AZ
-
scamper wrote: PBeakley wrote: Every player has their own deck of cards, and that deck changes over time. DOMINION! Yay. Pop into a forum. Say something you think is witty (which isn't) and leave!
No, actually, I provided multiple detailed points explaining why Mage Knight isn't "Dominion-like." You of course rejected that analysis because you've already made up your mind.
I'm not sure what you're trying to accomplish at this point. The game works as designed, and your expectations of that design aren't being met. But...those expectations are on you, not on the game. The game's the game.
-
Richard Young
Canada
Victoria
BC
Old Ways Are Best!
Check Six!
-
scamper wrote: bleached_lizard wrote: Agreed - nothing like Dominion.
I found that in my first few games my deed deck didn't change so much, but in later games I would find my deck size doubling. Nothing? Not even a smidge? Teenytinybit?
No - and thank God! Dominion is a deck-building game pure and simple. Build a deck then start adding. The deck you built is the game. It's all there is, and why there have to be so many different cards (or at least the appearance of different cards) or there would be no replay value whatsoever. It was interesting, even novel, to me for about three plays. Way too easy to ruin the game with the wrong set of stacks (which is most of them actually). Shuffle, deal, play, shuffle, deal, play...rinse and repeat - endlessly. Not anymore thanks...
I like the idea of deck-building in order to use it (the deck) to some purpose. It is what made M:tG so great, and why sealed-deck tournaments and card-drafting were popular formats for it. Here in MK, deck-building goes hand in hand with a lot of other elements to facilitate game play. Deck-building does not dominate this game but is integral to it - and thank goodness there is a lot more going on than happens in Dominion. Oh yes, and it is a board game into the bargain, and a great one at that.
-
Scott Means
United States
Alameda
California
-
@scamper comments snipped a quoted the old fashion way:
"I want to move, but all I have are influence or attack cards."
Discard your hand sideways for movement then pass the next time around to end the turn.
"you play cards to beat monsters to get more cards, experience and vps."
"But, you have to use your deck to get them. They don't just appear in your tableau."
You could say:
MK is a miniatures game where a player must make tactical decisions on an evolving map based on the resources available from building a deck.
or
A deck builder is the bases of the resources available to make tactical decisions in a miniatures game played on an evolving map.
Now for something useful:
Stop running 4 player, instead only play with 2 people to shorten the lag time. This will hopefully allow you to focus sufficiently to be able to build your deck at a level that the rest of us are. Play 6-10 more games this way, read the rules again to make sure you are not missing something, then get back to this discussion in a few weeks.
-
Will rate 10 for Cash
Belgium
BRUSSELS
Saint - Gilles
'Accepting cash stuffed brown envelopes since 1980'
-
You could come online and be snarky... or just try the more deck building variant in the rules if you don't like it as is.
You still haven't actually told us what your issue is though, despite being quite insistent that it exists.
-
Chris J Davis
United Kingdom
Overtext pending moderation...
-
scamper wrote: bleached_lizard wrote: Agreed - nothing like Dominion.
I found that in my first few games my deed deck didn't change so much, but in later games I would find my deck size doubling. Nothing? Not even a smidge? Teenytinybit?
Okay, a smidge - they both share a deck-building mechanic. But as others have pointed out, in Dominion the deck-building is the whole game, whereas in MK the deck-building is just a small part of the game. And your argument is based on your belief that all games that have a deck-building mechanic should have the same amount of deck-building in them, which is just silly.
The deck-building as it is in MK works fine in the context of the game in which it exists. Stop thinking "why isn't this the same as Dominion?" and you might enjoy it.
-
-
To put it bluntly and emphatically:
Dominion is a tech demo and Mage Knight is a game using the techno.
Alternatively we can all agree, by recognizing that each of our definitions uses filters for analyzing the game (structure, theme, etc).
We can be aware that Mage Knight uses a structural deckbuilding mechanism, as Dominion, but where Dominion has no subsystems, Mage Knight has lots of them.
For instance, to get an artifact card in MK, you must play the right amount or resources (attack cards), but you must also use a particular resource (move) to move your pawn to a zone where you can actually "buy" the artifact. When you pay your attack cards, you have also to pay with another currency (block), of which if you don't have enough you fill your deck with dead cards. In dominion there are no zones, no pawn, and one currency (ok, Alchemy introduces potions). Dominion has the equivalent of wounds with curses, but they are acquired differently.
Ok, I was going to add other examples, but you get the point.
MK is a deckbuilding game in the sense that it uses deckbuilding as its main and structural mechanism, but you don't see it because you're "inside" of it, because it is masterfully fleshed-out with interesting subsystems.
MK is not a db game in the sense that when you're playing, you don't feel like you're just deckbuilding... But if you look closely, you'll find that every mechanism relates to the db structure.
I think we can give credit to Vlaada to have recognized the potential of db, and used it in a meaningful and engaging way, like Martin Wallace did in A Few Acres of Snow.
That Mage Knight doesn't looklike a deckbuilding game to some is indeed a tribute to the excellence of the design.
EDIT: I realize that the last sentence could be considered as a sophism. My point was an analogy with fx in a movie: if you see them it's a sign that it's a failure, if you don't see them and naturally accept them, it's a success.
-
Ed Bradley
United Kingdom
Haverhill
Suffolk
The best things in life aren't things.
-
I tend to be more successful at MK when I focus on the deck-building part.
When describing MK to people that haven't played it I mention Dominion but it's not a perfect analogy.
-
-
Fwing wrote: I tend to be more successful at MK when I focus on the deck-building part.
Yes! Because it's the strategical part!
-
Ed Bradley
United Kingdom
Haverhill
Suffolk
The best things in life aren't things.
-
Kris wrote: Fwing wrote: I tend to be more successful at MK when I focus on the deck-building part. Yes! Because it's the strategical part!
You can't sneak the blindingly obvious past me! 
I mean, of course, that I deliberately try to grow my deck as much as possible, rather than just letting it grow "naturally" as I kill things and level up.
I know you all knew that really
-
-
Not sure the OP is trolling (just a little bit)... but for what it's worth: To me the thing that sets Mage Knight appart the most from dominion is that every hand forces you to make tough decisions. There are several meaningful ways to play your cards and every hand is a small puzzle, that you need to solve. In Dominion the hand (90odd % of the time) just plays itself... the decisions come from what cards to add to your deck, while this aspect is much reduced in Mage Knight.
Different strokes I guess. If you wnat a game with lots of deck building play Dominion, if you want a game with little deck building and meaningful hand management try Mage Knight. The game might just not be for you...
-
|
|
Posted Wed Feb 8, 2012 9:09 pm
