Paul Grogan
United Kingdom
Cullompton
Devon
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scamper wrote: So, it seems to me, in my 3 plays (all 4 player), that the deed deck rarely changes. Do you guys find this as well?
Considering how important the deed deck is, this is a huge concern in my opinion especially in the early game.
It has been interesting to read all the comments over the last few days. 
In dominion, the entire game is about deck-building. There really isnt anything else to do in it. You build an engine, go through your deck countless times, etc. I'm not saying I dont like the game, I do.
MK is a fantasy adventure game, with a map, you go around a board, there is lots to do. One 'part' of the game is your deck, which starts off at 16 cards and you can add to it as the game goes on. You only go through your deck 6 times in a full length game.
I have spent days trying to understand the statement "the deed deck rarely changes" and "this is a huge concern".
By the end of the walkthrough scenario, players will have not modified their deck much to be honest. They will probably have 1-2 advanced actions, and maybe a spell. Maybe even an artifact if they are lucky. So, yes, your deck isnt much different at the end of the game. However, that is the walkthrough - it is only designed to teach you the rules.
The full scenario - by the end of that, each player should have lots of extra cards in their deck (as others have said).
But - If you are trying to compare the game to Dominion (which you shouldnt), then I think what the OP is suggesting is that it is like playing Dominion where everyone just has their initial deck of cards and plays with only that and no more cards for the first 5-6 rounds. And yes, this wouldnt work at all.
Bottom line. This game includes a deck-building element. Yes, the deed deck is important - because without it you cant move anywhere or fight. Is it a problem that the deed deck only changes slowly as the game progresses - not in the slightest.
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Jason Rupp
United States
Cedar Rapids
Iowa
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Saying MK is a deck building game is like saying A Few Acres of Snow is a deckbuilding game. They are both games with a deckbuilding mechanic. If you're expecting a Dominion variant when you play either of these games you didn't do much research before your purchase.
Eitherway, your deck does change quite a bit throughout the game. I'm guessing you've only played the intro game (which only took us 2 rounds). In the intro game, your deck doesn't change much and your argument might hold some water. Try playing the solo conquest scenario and if you still tell me that your deck doesn't change... well, you're probably a troll then.
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Kris Moulton
Canada
Vancouver
British Columbia
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Another thing that MK has over Dominion to add to the strategy is that you don't dump your hand at the end of a turn. This add an important element of hand management that Dominion doesn't have. In MK you're constantly faced with the decision to "play this great card suboptimally now, or hold it in my hand until a great combo comes out." This kind of choice is nowhere to be seen in Dominion.
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Paul Beakley
United States
Tempe
AZ
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OP, here are some practical considerations for you to chew on:
1) If the game was more Dominion-like, I think you'd expect to see your deck get substantially larger (like 3-4x the starting size, right?). Presumably that would include more deck-/draw-manipulation tricks. However, the "puzzle" a player must solve per the current MK rules is already quite time consuming. Adding deck/draw manipulation would only increase the handling time. Believe me, once you've got 6-9 cards in hand (from level-ups, keep proximity, tactics effects, whatever) plus 2-3 units, any given turn is already uh...lengthy. Our turns sometimes last 5-10 minutes while we work out all the various ways to solve the turn.
2) Succeeding at Mage Knight means being able to plan ahead a bit. Your current hand might not have what you need RIGHT NOW, but you can either ditch it to get close to what you need or simply delay your plans until the right cards come up. There is planning throughout your round, and it's an important part of the game. If the deck were 3-4x as big, it would become so, so much more difficult to actually plan ahead. When I know I have 6 move cards in hand and 3 of them have already gone by, and I've only got 5 or 6 cards left in my draw pile, I know I can plan on moving later in my round.
Between both those things -- the increased handling time of a more Dominion-like play dynamic, combined with the reduced ability to plan around a much larger deck -- it seems to me that the design decisions made in MK are a matter of practicality as much as anything else.
So should you be "concerned"? I guess you totally should, if you're looking for a deckbuilding game with minis on a map.
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James Ludlow
United States
Saint Louis Park
Minnesota
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scamper wrote: For the record, my original question was not snarky. But, the first reply was. If you do not know what a deed deck is, why are you reply to a question about this game?
Spells, actions, advanced actions, and artifacts are all "deeds". I wanted to make sure that you really were referring to the players' starting deed decks. As you can see from the responses, it's not crazy that I would think you're referring to something else, since these starting decks do change quite a bit over the course of a game.
The second part of the response was asking why you think it's a big problem. So far the best answer you've given is roughly "it's a problem because it's not like Dominion, and I'm pretty sure this game is like Dominion."
I was asking for clarification. You came into the thread with your mind made up firmly. Why ask for our opinions at all?
So, I guess back to your original question:
Quote: the deed deck rarely changes. Do you guys find this as well?
No.
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Lee Fisher
United States
Downingtown
Pennsylvania
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Your deck should start changing in round one. When you gain cards they go on top of your deck, so this is a huge impact and difference from other games.
The deck building is more subtle, but even the small difference in starter decks cascades into a significant difference combined with everything else in the game.
I think in this case the original question was just not very clear, so there couldn't be much focus to the discussion.
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NO, I am Barry and you are the tick
Netherlands
Den haag
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In reply to the first part of your post, I think that you got a lot of serious replies, that respected your opinion as well.
scamper wrote: In the end, I do know what Mage Knight is, I just wanted the deck building section to work a little better than I feel it does.
Glad you guys enjoy it.
I mostly want to respond to the bolded here. It is the words you use that make people defensive.
If you had said, that you wanted the deck building section to work a little different than it does, most people would not feel slighted by your statement, because it only indicates that the gameplay is not to your personal liking.
By using the unnecesary qualification better instead, you give an unnecesary judgement about the quality of the gameplay that people will argue with you about.
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Steve Hope
Woodside
California
Likes: Mountains, Tundra Turn-offs: Serpents, Marsh
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scamper wrote: In the end, I do know what Mage Knight is, I just wanted the deck building section to work a little better than I feel it does.
I guess I don't understand what "work better" means here.
Do you want to have more ability to choose particular cards out of your deck at particular times (filtering)?
Do you want more power in the cards you get, whether by getting more cards/larger hands/replacing other cards?
Do you want more of the victory points at game end to come from your deck?
To me, the deckbuilding part of the game (and I would say it's only part of the game, because a majority of the VPs earned come from outside the deck) feels pretty good.
I can certainly envision a game where my deck changed more, but it couldn't get much more powerful on the whole or the whole power curve of enemies would have to change. I don't think I'd want victory to be determined by the components of my deck (that is an interesting but contrived element of Dominion IMO). I wouldn't mind having better filtering to avoid being "Move Screwed" on occasion, but I don't think that's a big enough deal to bring in deck-optimizing tech on a large scale and invite even more AP than the game already does.
I'm sure I haven't enumerated all the possible ways that the deckbuilding in the game could "work better", so maybe I'm missing something. Or perhaps as OP and others have said, it just isn't his game.
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Scott Lewis
United States
Castle Rock
Colorado
Dread Our Coming, Suffer Our Presence, Embrace Our Glory (Solonavi War Cry)
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The original post only says that the deed deck "rarely changes", without describing what that means. The follow-up posts have thus questioned that by stating how in other people's games, new cards are added quite often, sometimes even up to doubling the size of the original deck.
Thus, without more information on what you mean by "rarely changes", there can only be speculation about how much you are training, acquiring spells, and even leveling up. In most of my games (and I'm far from being an expert yet), I get at least 5 extra cards, and usually a few more. And that's not even counting Wound cards, which, though they don't do anything useful most of the time, do a lot to change your deed deck and its dynamics.
Personally, I didn't read the first reply as snarky as opposed to trying to get more information so as to have a better response to your specific issue.
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James Ludlow
United States
Saint Louis Park
Minnesota
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scamper wrote: I've played 4 games of this wonderfully designed game, but my group of 4 players deed decks didn't seem to gain many or lose many cards.
Probably just a play style or groupthink difference. How aggressive were the players in assaulting towers and sacking monasteries? Was anyone loading up on advanced actions from monasteries prior to their torching? Was anyone pounding on Learning, Training or Magic Talent to grow their decks? Or Decompose or Maximal Effect to shrink them? Was anyone using the Green city for advanced actions, the Red city for artifacts, or the Blue city for spells?
Don't discount units and skills as a way to specialize as well. They're a part of your deck that you don't have to draw.
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Scott Lewis
United States
Castle Rock
Colorado
Dread Our Coming, Suffer Our Presence, Embrace Our Glory (Solonavi War Cry)
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scamper wrote: sigmazero13 wrote: The original post only says that the deed deck "rarely changes", without describing what that means. The follow-up posts have thus questioned that by stating how in other people's games, new cards are added quite often, sometimes even up to doubling the size of the original deck.
One person also mentioned they had fairly static decks as well. Lets see if I can disarm my original hostile question. I've played 4 games of this wonderfully designed game, but my group of 4 players deed decks didn't seem to gain many or lose many cards. Did the designer plan for this to be the situation? It would seem that within the lush theme of the game, that the deed deck would change more as the character grows.
I think a question that can go along with a response is: How often are you completing the scenario objective? Are you often conquering all the cities despite having a static deck?
If not, as James says above I think the issue may not be so much in the game (which certainly DOES allow for play where you don't gain many cards) as in the strategies used by the players. IE, if you find that your deck is remaining fairly static, but that also the scenario objectives are not being completed, I think there's a correlation, and if you want to accomplish the latter, something needs to change to better make use of adding to your deck.
If you ARE completing the objectives anyway, well, I still think it largely comes down to playstyle; if you want a more dynamic deck, there are certainly many avenues to doing so.
Again, I'm far from an expert (I haven't completed the objectives many times myself yet), but without knowing I would guess the first (ie, "not completing objectives") situation is the case.
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James Ludlow
United States
Saint Louis Park
Minnesota
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scamper wrote: We've only played the full 3 days 3 nights scenario. So, far it has taken so long that we've yet to complete it. Generally starting at 6pm and ended after 11pm.
Sounds about right. Our last 6 round game with 3-players took 5 hours. The experience levels in terms of games played prior were something like 10, 3, and 1.
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Scott Lewis
United States
Castle Rock
Colorado
Dread Our Coming, Suffer Our Presence, Embrace Our Glory (Solonavi War Cry)
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scamper wrote: I doubt anyone other than the designer and playtesters are experts at this point.
Well, I do know there are some who can easily beat the suggested city levels, and even the harder city levels, so I think even in the short time it's been out there are already some emerging as experts in terms of the strategy.
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Jason Rupp
United States
Cedar Rapids
Iowa
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scamper wrote:
We've only played the full 3 days 3 nights scenario. So, far it has taken so long that we've yet to complete it.
I think the problem is that you're horribly vague about everything and now it sounds like you haven't even played a full game.
It's hard to take you serious when you proclaim a problem that no one else has experienced.
You gain cards from:
Level Ups
Mage Towers (conquer + purchase)
Monastery
Tombs
Cities
Advanced Actions
Village (recruit)
Ruins
Basically anything you do in the game.
Play a full game (actually finish it) and then come back here. I can assure you that you gain at least 15 cards in the game if you're playing correctly. If that's not enough for your liking... that's fine, trade the game off, it's not for you.
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Paul Beakley
United States
Tempe
AZ
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scamper wrote: OK. Thanks to Jason for reminding me why the geek forums are useless. Other posts deleted so as not to interfere in your forum.
Ahahaha! Took his ball and went home. 
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Hank Drew
United States
Sunnyvale
California
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Yay! We ran the infidel off!
Go back to your stupid Dominion, Hank!
I deleted my posts because I wasn't interested in an argument. I just wanted to discuss the game. Then you guys badgered, changed the subject and harassed me, so now I just don't care anymore.
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Lee Fisher
United States
Downingtown
Pennsylvania
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Jason's post wasn't a helpful discussion of the game? I don't see much badgering and harassing here as compared to many other threads. We're genuinely were trying to understand your cryptic concern.
(edit:typo)
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Paul Beakley
United States
Tempe
AZ
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scamper wrote: Yay! We ran the infidel off!
Go back to your stupid Dominion, Hank!
I deleted my posts because I wasn't interested in an argument. I just wanted to discuss the game. Then you guys badgered, changed the subject and harassed me, so now I just don't care anymore.
Hank, you didn't have to go and delete all your posts. That's just petty and silly. You walking away from the thread is one thing -- and, yeah, threads can get heated when you start insulting the stuff that people love. Or when you dig your heels in to defend your POV. Believe me, I understand that one all too well.
But taking the time to erase your tracks? Really?
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Bill H
United States
Absecon
New Jersey
You can't take the sky from me!
"A master in the art of living draws no sharp distinction between his work and his play, his labour and his leisure, his mind and his body, his education and his recreation." LP Jacks
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GreedyAlgorithm wrote: Off-the-cuff I'd say deck-building is maybe (1/3)*(1/5)*(~1/3) = 3% of the game.
Based upon my own gut feeling I would probably put the percentage a little higher, but that's probably not too far off. Deck building is one tool to increase capability in the game, but for some players it isn't even the most important tool.
To illustrate exactly how important deck building is to Mage Knight, imagine a custom scenario where you prohibited adding any card to your decks. No spells won or purchased; no advanced abilities. You would have to set easier goals to compensate (e.g., find, not defeat, a city).
You would have to manage Mana to boost your cards' abilities, and store it for when it was really needed. You would still move around the board and explore, and fight NPCs to level up. You would still choose skill tiles when leveling and increase your armor and leadership, and could still acquire units. You would have tougher hand management decisions and combat would be rougher, but...
It would still be playable, and it would still be recognizably Mage Knight, with absolutely no deck-building involved.
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Andrew Hurp
United Kingdom
Aldershot
Hampshire
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Lol, and we have the first 1 rating of the game!
Although his commment regards not enough deck control early in the game, which might give more insight into what he was uncomfortable with, yet unable to express.
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Scott Lewis
United States
Castle Rock
Colorado
Dread Our Coming, Suffer Our Presence, Embrace Our Glory (Solonavi War Cry)
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Fabs wrote: Lol, and we have the first 1 rating of the game!
Although his commment regards not enough deck control early in the game, which might give more insight into what he was uncomfortable with, yet unable to express.
Alas, in this case, his 1 probably has nothing to do with the game and everything to do with how he felt he was treated in this thread (right or wrong).
Not that it's going to make a big difference, and him covering his tracks doesn't help, but it does make me distrust ALL his ratings now.
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Taylor Liss
United States
Quincy
Massachusetts
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Just a heads up, it seems the OP is posting a thread complaining of how he was treated in this one:
Is it possible to actually have conversations with Fanboys?
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Matthew M Monin
United States
Branford
Connecticut
8/8 FREE, PROTECTED
513ers Assemble!
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Remember - if you see something you want to react negatively to, flag it and forget it.
Using the  icon serves two functions - first, if enough users flag a post then it will be collapsed from general view. Second, flagging posts helps bring them to the attention of the forum moderators.
Thanks!
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Andrew Hurp
United Kingdom
Aldershot
Hampshire
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Well, looks like people there are pointing out where he isn't communicating well as well. Hopefully this time he wont just dismiss them as Mage Knight Fanboys
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