J S
United States
San Diego
California
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We have our 3rd face-to-face game coming this weekend, I want to make sure I understand the diplomacy sequence when multiple parties are announcing.
Otts and France make some deal, Haps and Papacy make some deal. Does "announce / accept in impulse order" mean the order is:
1) Otts announce O-F deal / France accepts / Haps announce H-Pap deal / Papacy accepts
or
2) Otts announce O-F deal / Haps announce H-Pap deal / France accepts / Papacy accepts
I think it's the first order. I can imagine scenarios where, for example, Haps might want to withdraw the deal depending on France's answer.
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Mike Owens
United States
Georgetown
Texas
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The latter order: "All powers involved in an agreement that follow later in Impulse Order must confirm all the contents of this declaration when it is their turn in the Impulse Order." [9.1 third full paragraph, p.11 of 2010 rules].
[edit: fixed formatting]
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Steven
United States
Washington
Dist of Columbia
No women, no kids.
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I agree with Mike. It seems pretty clear that you have to announce in impulse order any agreements you made. Thus the more powerful nations have to initiate any of the deals they want to make and may get burned a bit, because of it. This is a really simple and elegant way to help out the weaker powers: they get to “see the deals” which are offered and can react to them.
Also remember that if you do not accept all entire deal, the whole deal between both countries do not take effect.
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Philip Thomas
United Kingdom
London
London
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SW_Cygnus wrote:
Also remember that if you do not accept all entire deal, the whole deal between both countries do not take effect.
Strictly true, but we allow countries to offer several deals to the same opponent, thus effectively allowing severance of terms.
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J S
United States
San Diego
California
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Thanks all. Hasn't been a problem yet (in our practice or first full game) but I just wanted to make sure.
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Steven
United States
Washington
Dist of Columbia
No women, no kids.
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Philip Thomas wrote: SW_Cygnus wrote:
Also remember that if you do not accept all entire deal, the whole deal between both countries do not take effect.
Strictly true, but we allow countries to offer several deals to the same opponent, thus effectively allowing severance of terms.
Great idea, I had never thought of that! Good way to allow some diplomatic leeway, so to speak.
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Philip Thomas
United Kingdom
London
London
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SW_Cygnus wrote: Philip Thomas wrote: SW_Cygnus wrote:
Also remember that if you do not accept all entire deal, the whole deal between both countries do not take effect.
Strictly true, but we allow countries to offer several deals to the same opponent, thus effectively allowing severance of terms. Great idea, I had never thought of that! Good way to allow some diplomatic leeway, so to speak.
Yes, although there are risks if you are careless in wording the deals (for example, you offer your opponent an alliance in exchange for either a card draw or 3 mercenaries, and he takes both deals...then again that sort of shenanigans is likely to be bad for him in the long run).
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Michael Kiefte
Canada
Dartmouth
Nova Scotia
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Philip Thomas wrote:
Yes, although there are risks if you are careless in wording the deals (for example, you offer your opponent an alliance in exchange for either a card draw or 3 mercenaries, and he takes both deals...then again that sort of shenanigans is likely to be bad for him in the long run).
So you should say "in exchange for a card draw xor 3 mercenaries."
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Kristian Thy
Germany
Bonn
Nordrhein-Westfalen
Together, we are the United Nations
Gunulfr ok Øgotr ok Aslakr ok Rolfr resþu sten þænsi æftir Ful, felaga sin, ær warþ ... døþr, þa kunungar barþusk.
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No conditionals are allowed.
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Steven
United States
Washington
Dist of Columbia
No women, no kids.
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turbothy wrote: No conditionals are allowed.
I agree Kristian and this is how we play often in Pbems, where you have time to work out extensive diplomacy in secret. Yet I think Phil may be onto something for face to face play in a more casual setting, especially for people playing for the first time.
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Zack Stoecker-Sylvia
United States
Honolulu
Hawaii
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SW_Cygnus wrote: turbothy wrote: No conditionals are allowed. I agree Kristian and this is how we play often in Pbems, where you have time to work out extensive diplomacy in secret. Yet I think Phil may be onto something for face to face play in a more casual setting, especially for people playing for the first time.
The rulebook allows multiple separable deals and has no restrictions on conditional deals.
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Joel K
United States
St Louis Park
Minnesota
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zackss wrote: The rulebook allows multiple separable deals and has no restrictions on conditional deals.
However, we do have a designer ruling that conditional deals are prohibited.
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zackss wrote: SW_Cygnus wrote: turbothy wrote: No conditionals are allowed. I agree Kristian and this is how we play often in Pbems, where you have time to work out extensive diplomacy in secret. Yet I think Phil may be onto something for face to face play in a more casual setting, especially for people playing for the first time. The rulebook allows multiple separable deals and has no restrictions on conditional deals.
Where is it in the rulebook 'multiple separate deals with the same player' ?
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Zack Stoecker-Sylvia
United States
Honolulu
Hawaii
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That seems kind of silly. You can still functionally make all the conditional deals you want via deals that are just rejected if the conditions do not apply, so it does nothing to prevent "if you get a 4+ CP card, give me a mercenary", it just reduces the ability for the powers to make explicit counter-deals without offering unconditional gifts and hoping the other power doesn't abuse it.
I would assume that developer rulings still stand even though there is a newer rulebook than the posting date that does not incorporate any of the changes discussed?
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Zack Stoecker-Sylvia
United States
Honolulu
Hawaii
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powerwis wrote: Where is it in the rulebook 'multiple separate deals with the same player' ?
Section 9.1, last paragraph:
"Announcements can be made as individual items, or as a group of agreements that need to be ratified together."
It doesn't explicitly say anything about same player, but there is no limitation on it.
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J S
United States
San Diego
California
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Thanks all. BTW, the game only went about 4.5 hrs and ended on turn 3 with the Hapsburgs romping us. Drew 3 cards from the new world going into turn 2 (hit circumnavigate card & all his new world produced) and 2 new world cards into turn 3. Some obvious things could have been done to stop him, but they weren't, so it goes.
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