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Subject: Duplicate KB rss

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Chief EGG Head
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So

Eugene
Oregon
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and I have been debating the merits of this game and I wondered about playing duplicate hands as a more interesting variant. Any thoughts?
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Angelo Nikolaou
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It sounds like a huge disadvantage for the second player. Only if you swap turn play, 1-2-2-1-1-2-2-1 would it be close to working
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Chief EGG Head
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I was thinking more a series of games play one game, swap hands and play a second game. May be 2 player games with 4 players total, rotating opponents.
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KC Skedzielewski
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Augusta TWP
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I don't even understand what you are suggesting.shake
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Eugene
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lorna wrote:
So [GG] and I have been debating the merits of this game.

For the record, I'm strongly pro-KB. Lorna is strongly pro-"there's no game in" KB.
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Eugene
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kcskedz wrote:
I don't even understand what you are suggesting.shake

Are you familiar with duplicate Bridge? Like that.
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-matt s.
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Eugene
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I'm not familiar with duplicate Bridge. Could you give a brief summary of what you are suggesting?

I think the idea of drawing 2 cards and playing 1 of the two is interesting if you are trying to mitigate the 'luck' a bit. Personally, I am strongly Pro-KB myself, although I need to play it more before my opinion counts in this discussion I think But I don't see it changing much for me....
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Russ Williams
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The duplicate version sounds like unappealing additional bureaucracy/complexity to me. But I guess I'd be willing to try it if I was with someone who was interested in trying it.

PS: By coincidence, I just played my simple randomless variant for the second time an hour ago. (Each turn you simply pick which of the 5 terrain types you want to build your 3 houses on.) It was 3-player and we all enjoyed it. I'd tried it 2-player once before a few weeks ago.
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Eugene
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tasajara wrote:
I'm not familiar with duplicate Bridge. Could you give a brief summary of what you are suggesting?


Cut-and-paste from Wikipedia:

"It is called duplicate because the same bridge deal (i.e. the specific arrangement of the 52 cards into the four hands) is played at each table and scoring is based on relative performance. In this way, every hand, whether strong or weak, is played in competition with others playing the identical cards, and the element of skill is heightened whilst that of chance is reduced."

Essentially, don't discard your cards to a shared pile. Keep them in front of you. At the end of the game, play another game on the same boards with the same scoring cards, but give your played cards to your opponent, who will then play them in the very same order that you did the first game. Combine scores from both games to determine winner.

One potential problem is that the KB deck is so small, two players may not be able to go through a game without passing through the deck more than once.

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Russ Williams
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garygarison wrote:
One potential problem is that the KB deck is so small, two players may not be able to go through a game without passing through the deck more than once.

That was definitely part of the "unappealing additional bureaucracy/complexity" I was thinking about.
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Chief EGG Head
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So mostly just curious. I'm not a KB hater, I just feel like there is not much choice inthe game with rules as written. You make an optimal move with the card given, unlike in other games where you may have many choices that lead to other choices and strategies. Sure the two card variant would nullify this, but it was more about the discussion we were having in regards to the game as written.
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Eugene
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Yes, two decks may be in order.
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Eugene
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lorna wrote:
So mostly just curious. I'm not a KB hater, I just feel like there is not much choice inthe game with rules as written.

And my almost doubling your score in our game was pure luck of the draw!
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Chris Berger
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I really like Bridge, so I'm not sure why this doesn't appeal to me. I think it's because it turns Kingdom Builder into something a little too serious. I like the fact that it's a light, fast game with some difficult decisions and a balance of luck and strategy. If someone wants it to be a serious test of skill, then yeah, I think playing it duplicate style would work well, but I think the people who would want that are mostly the people that don't like KB in the first place.

One issue would be that you would "know" the order of the other hand after playing it once. Both players would have the same potential advantage, but it's quite possible that one hand plays really well if you know the order it's in, while the other hand is more indifferent. The other problem would be number of cards as someone mentioned, but I think it would be best played with two full decks of KB cards from separate games (edit: just noticed this was already suggested, possibly by a ninja). It changes the game slightly in that your hand is now completely independent of your opponent's draws, but I doubt that would matter in any measurable way.

To add a little more strategy to the game, I'd prefer just playing with a 2 card hand.
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Chief EGG Head
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Or the fact that you've played fifty games and I wasn't paying enough attention to the goal cards to understand one of them-lol
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Chief EGG Head
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Yes, that's why I was thinking 4 players and rotating opponents with hands. Anyway just idle curiosity and opportunity for discussion, doubt if we'll ever actually try it
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Eugene
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Well now you've learned. The goal cards are the game. Other than the castles, they are the only way to score points.
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Chief EGG Head
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Oh that's what those cards are for, scoring! no wonder I thought this game was meh!
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Joseph Cochran
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garygarison wrote:
tasajara wrote:
I'm not familiar with duplicate Bridge. Could you give a brief summary of what you are suggesting?


Essentially, don't discard your cards to a shared pile. Keep them in front of you. At the end of the game, play another game on the same boards with the same scoring cards, but give your played cards to your opponent, who will then play them in the very same order that you did the first game. Combine scores from both games to determine winner.


Actually, that's not duplicate either because the second play isn't blind. True duplicate would be A and B sitting at table 1 and playing a game while C and D sat at table 2 and played one, then A/B switch tables with C/D, and both pairs then play with the same draws. A's score is then compared with C and B with D to determine who "won" each of those matchups, as they're the ones who played the exact same game.
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Eugene
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More precisely, yes.
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Joseph Cochran
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Thinking about it, I suppose the correct term for what the OP is really thinking of is symmetric KB.

There are a number of games out there that do that, but I'm not entirely sure KB is really in need of either form...
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Matt Davis
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garygarison wrote:
Yes, two decks may be in order.


I'm not so sure. you have forty houses and place at least 3 a turn. That's 14 turns at most, and there are 25 cards in the deck. With any reasonable amount of extra placement (i.e. at least 4 by either player) you're done in 12 turns and 2 players can just use one deck.
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