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Subject: A number of pre-play questions rss

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Justin K
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Based only on reading the rule book, I found the following parts a bit ambiguous (based on the online version):

--Can the tower only kill one orc per turn? Or can I move the orcs one at a time and kill each one in turn.
--Following up the previous question, what do any remaining orcs do once blocked by the tower? Do they continue moving through it on the next turn? I can't think of anything else they might do but this wasn't clear (and doesn't match the picture of a wall on the tile )

--From the text of remodel: "Swap one of your built and/or un-built buildings for another. Swapped buildings may be different terrain types." What is the purpose of the "and/or" clause? If I understand correctly, the only use for this option is to choose exactly one built building and exactly one un-built building, and swap them (and the new building can go in any legal spot). Is this correct? The 'and/or' bit makes me think I'm missing something. Also, I can only swap buildings I own, not a building I own with one from the bag, correct?


--I must be missing this in the rules, but I don't see it clearly stated anywhere that enemy units which survive a battle stop their movement. Is this the case? Or can an Orc continue movement after destroying an archer? Also, friendly units can engage multiple enemies (if they survive), but enemy units will only engage one friendly?
--Follow up: what happens if a blessed friendly unit engages an enemy that would normally destroy it (e.g. Archer vs. Orc)? Does the Orc just stop for the turn and do nothing, or does it ignore the archer entirely?

--Are buildings with Defensive Fire still destroyed by pertinent enemy units? Seems like they are but would like to confirm.

--What happens if a (4p) game goes longer than 9 rounds, thus running out of building tiles? Is this just never going to happen? If everyone is doing poorly and it *does* happen, do you simply continue without pulling more buildings?

-- Not strictly a rules question, but Loyalty Change (also Lure and maybe even Mounument) seems a bit much of a wild card if used on someone other than your partner (in a 4p game). I would be really thrown off if someone used it on me out of the blue--is my concern unwarranted here? I feel like it would make more sense to only be able to swap with your partner.

Whew... I know that was a lot. Sorry if any of these were actually in the rules; I tried to be careful about reading thoroughly.
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CW Karstens
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kops wrote:
Based only on reading the rule book, I found the following parts a bit ambiguous (based on the online version):


The BGG Online copy of the rules was for the prototype game and is extremely old. The printed version you will get is a lot more complete and should answer these questions. I will answer them here so you can get to playing.

kops wrote:
--Can the tower only kill one orc per turn? Or can I move the orcs one at a time and kill each one in turn.


You have a choice. If you have 3 orcs that need to move into a Tower, the best method is to move one at a time so the Tower takes out each one for a single point each. Another option (albeit a bad one), is to move all 3 together at the same time onto the Tower. The Tower will only take out 1 orc for 1 point. The other 2 will sit there for this turn. Next turn, if you move 1 by 1, the Tower will take each out for a point. Again, if you instead decide to move both orcs at the same time, 1 orc will be destroyed for a point and the other will get past the Tower.


kops wrote:
--Following up the previous question, what do any remaining orcs do once blocked by the tower? Do they continue moving through it on the next turn? I can't think of anything else they might do but this wasn't clear (and doesn't match the picture of a wall on the tile )


See the answer above. The Tower graphic does in fact include a wall but, it is not a very good one apparently. :-P

kops wrote:
--From the text of remodel: "Swap one of your built and/or un-built buildings for another. Swapped buildings may be different terrain types." What is the purpose of the "and/or" clause? If I understand correctly, the only use for this option is to choose exactly one built building and exactly one un-built building, and swap them (and the new building can go in any legal spot). Is this correct? The 'and/or' bit makes me think I'm missing something. Also, I can only swap buildings I own, not a building I own with one from the bag, correct?


The other option is to swap a built building for another built building, essentially changing one into the other. Terrain types must be legal so, this is usually for getting a MoatArcWall into the front position when you had previously built a Moat&Ferry there. The wording is in fact incorrect to make this assumption but that was the intention.

kops wrote:
--I must be missing this in the rules, but I don't see it clearly stated anywhere that enemy units which survive a battle stop their movement. Is this the case? Or can an Orc continue movement after destroying an archer? Also, friendly units can engage multiple enemies (if they survive), but enemy units will only engage one friendly?


Yes, enemy and friendly units both stop their movement if they engage in battle and survive. Enemies will only engage 1 friendly unless for example a Dragon moves into a space with 2 Knights. It will destroy 1 knight and stop. Then, because of Invasion, the Dragon will destroy the second knight as stay in the same space.


kops wrote:
--Follow up: what happens if a blessed friendly unit engages an enemy that would normally destroy it (e.g. Archer vs. Orc)? Does the Orc just stop for the turn and do nothing, or does it ignore the archer entirely?


If an Orc lands in a space with a Blessed Archer, the Orc is destroyed and the Archer lives. If a Dragon enters a space with a Blessed Knight, the Dragon stops and both live. On the next turn (after Blessing wears off, the player can move the knight out or move an Archer in to destroy the Dragon. If something like that does not happen, when the Dragon goes to move, it will destroy the Knight.

kops wrote:
--Are buildings with Defensive Fire still destroyed by pertinent enemy units? Seems like they are but would like to confirm.


The buildings are not destroyed. You can only place Defensive Fire on Defensive Buildings (those with green backgrounds). Walls and Towers are defensive buildings that can be destroyed by enemy units. If you place Defensive Fire on them, they destroy the enemy unit before the building is destroyed.

kops wrote:
--What happens if a (4p) game goes longer than 9 rounds, thus running out of building tiles? Is this just never going to happen? If everyone is doing poorly and it *does* happen, do you simply continue without pulling more buildings?


We have found this to happen less than 5-10% of our plays and drops with experience. You do continue without having buildings to divide.

kops wrote:
-- Not strictly a rules question, but Loyalty Change (also Lure and maybe even Mounument) seems a bit much of a wild card if used on someone other than your partner (in a 4p game). I would be really thrown off if someone used it on me out of the blue--is my concern unwarranted here? I feel like it would make more sense to only be able to swap with your partner.


Loyalty Change and Monument can be negated with a built Chapel. Note the Chapel needs to be built on a previous turn to be helpful so it requires planning. When dividing is happening, you do have to watch for those cards in the other groups dividing pile. All items are revealed during the dividing process so you can see what is there. In ALL of the games we played, were told about and watched, we never had the issue of a stall as people want the other group to divide and/or pick first but if your play group does have this problem, the pair with the King's Favored must divide first, then the other pair divides, then the King's Favored picks, then the other pair picks.

kops wrote:
Whew... I know that was a lot. Sorry if any of these were actually in the rules; I tried to be careful about reading thoroughly.


No problem. I hope my answers solve everything and your games are awesome!

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Justin K
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Thanks, that clears pretty much everything up!

I would like to point out that when I said online version I actually meant the DiamondK version linked in my other thread. I'm not sure if it's identical to the printed rules but I didn't find most of your answers there.

One last minor point--

Quote:
Yes, enemy and friendly units both stop their movement if they engage in battle and survive. Enemies will only engage 1 friendly unless for example a Dragon moves into a space with 2 Knights.


The dragon kills both knights *only if* there is an invasion played, correct? And if there are 3 knights and an invasion, only 2 die.

And if there is a single blessed knight and an invasion, the dragon reaches the knight, stops to engage and survives. Then for the invasion, the dragon engages again and doesn't move (so the second move is effectively nullified), correct?
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CW Karstens
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Yep you got it
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Justin K
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Thanks CW for your dedication to these forums!

Ok... time for post play questions. *deep breath*

--You confirmed in another thread that tower kills give a point each (since the tower has to go in the 1 point row). This seemed WAY too good in our game. For a single tower build early in the game, not only are orcs no longer even remotely a threat, but furthermore you get a point for *every* orc that enters your barony. This is just leagues better than any other building (including, IMO, moat-arc-wall). Did we mess this up somehow?

--I think we played this wrong, but the wording "before your turn" in the rules sections regarding King's Aid was a bit ambiguous. We played that you could play cards such as monument or teleport (the latter for finishing sieges) before anyone took their action. I now believe that the intention was that you can only play cards when your turn rolls around. However, either interpretation seemed to cause problems with some cards, most notably monument (see below).

--Every time someone got a monument, they would use it to steal another person's moat-arc-wall or stables or other highly desired building before the other person ever got a chance to build it. With the "correct" (I think) interpretation of the rules, where you can only play monument when it is your turn, the following situation will probably arise:

-Good building and monument appear in the same stack
-Splitter comes before chooser in turn order
-Splitter puts good building in one pile, and monument+worse building in the other.
-If chooser picks good building, splitter steals it with the monument
-If chooser picks monument, splitter builds the good building before chooser can steal it

This seems like a game flaw. Am I missing something? I may just stop using monument because it seems substantially better than most, if not all, other cards (the 2 point option was also extremely attractive in general).

--Not strictly a rules question, but defending your barony seemed a bit too easy. I don't think a single player (all first timers) ever lost a point due to an enemy reaching their tan areas. A single defensive building (especially a tower or moat-arc-wall) seemed like enough to make it virtually impossible for more than one or two enemies to get anywhere near the -1 rows, allowing easy clean up of whatever was left with friendly units. Was this the experience of playtesters as well or did we maybe overlook a rule which would have made things harder?

--Lastly, dungeons seemed liked they may have been weakened a fair bit by the addition of promo cards into the deck (reducing Squashed Rebellion from 1 among 12 to 1 among 15). Is it worth separating SR from the King's Aid deck, removing 3 non-SR cards, and then reshuffling? I may do this next game.

I think I will likely house rule some of these even if it turns out we played them right. For example, I might try towers don't give points, or towers can only destroy one unit per turn total, and as mentioned above, I'm considering removing monument (I prefer not to alter card text).

Whew. Finally, I'd like to make it clear that despite my criticisms above, I (and the rest of my group) found the game really enjoyable, and am definitely going to try to keep it on the table. After all, we only house rule games we like enough to keep playing!
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CW Karstens
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kops wrote:
Thanks CW for your dedication to these forums!

Ok... time for post play questions. *deep breath*

--You confirmed in another thread that tower kills give a point each (since the tower has to go in the 1 point row). This seemed WAY too good in our game. For a single tower build early in the game, not only are orcs no longer even remotely a threat, but furthermore you get a point for *every* orc that enters your barony. This is just leagues better than any other building (including, IMO, moat-arc-wall). Did we mess this up somehow?


If you are able to filter dragons and battering rams, this will be a nice situation. We never found setting up the filter to be easy but, we knew to watch for it. Also, if a person did get it set up and acquired a clump of orcs, someone would use the Sappers on it at a perfect time and the orcs would swarm the player's inner city for point losses.

kops wrote:
--I think we played this wrong, but the wording "before your turn" in the rules sections regarding King's Aid was a bit ambiguous. We played that you could play cards such as monument or teleport (the latter for finishing sieges) before anyone took their action. I now believe that the intention was that you can only play cards when your turn rolls around. However, either interpretation seemed to cause problems with some cards, most notably monument (see below).


The intent is before, in the middle of, or after your action, yet during your turn on all cards except the special 4,A,B,C cards and Invasion.

kops wrote:
--Every time someone got a monument, they would use it to steal another person's moat-arc-wall or stables or other highly desired building before the other person ever got a chance to build it. With the "correct" (I think) interpretation of the rules, where you can only play monument when it is your turn, the following situation will probably arise:

-Good building and monument appear in the same stack
-Splitter comes before chooser in turn order
-Splitter puts good building in one pile, and monument+worse building in the other.
-If chooser picks good building, splitter steals it with the monument
-If chooser picks monument, splitter builds the good building before chooser can steal it

This seems like a game flaw. Am I missing something? I may just stop using monument because it seems substantially better than most, if not all, other cards (the 2 point option was also extremely attractive in general).


The intent was that players were vulnerable to this situation without an active Chapel. If you wish, I suggest a house rule that Monument can only swap with buildings not acquired that turn. Let me know how that is received in your game group.

kops wrote:
--Not strictly a rules question, but defending your barony seemed a bit too easy. I don't think a single player (all first timers) ever lost a point due to an enemy reaching their tan areas. A single defensive building (especially a tower or moat-arc-wall) seemed like enough to make it virtually impossible for more than one or two enemies to get anywhere near the -1 rows, allowing easy clean up of whatever was left with friendly units. Was this the experience of playtesters as well or did we maybe overlook a rule which would have made things harder?


When creating the game, I had an easy, medium and hard setting with the intent that the medium be the normal game. In play-testing, few players enjoyed the medium and hard settings and got a bad taste of the game. Everyone enjoyed the easy setting, but some groups thought the game was too easy. That is why I left the variants in the rulebook. Try "Imminent Death" if your group likes a harder game. The medium setting was removed from the rulebook but basically remove 5 knights and 5 archers from the game before starting.

kops wrote:
--Lastly, dungeons seemed liked they may have been weakened a fair bit by the addition of promo cards into the deck (reducing Squashed Rebellion from 1 among 12 to 1 among 15). Is it worth separating SR from the King's Aid deck, removing 3 non-SR cards, and then reshuffling? I may do this next game.


That is perfectly acceptable. Adding in the promos can be done in any fashion you wish (add all or replace other cards with them). At the end of February, a "Hunt for the Fugitive" promo card will be available in the BGG Store. It adds an extra interaction with the Dungeon to remedy this situation you noted.

kops wrote:
I think I will likely house rule some of these even if it turns out we played them right. For example, I might try towers don't give points, or towers can only destroy one unit per turn total, and as mentioned above, I'm considering removing monument (I prefer not to alter card text).

Whew. Finally, I'd like to make it clear that despite my criticisms above, I (and the rest of my group) found the game really enjoyable, and am definitely going to try to keep it on the table. After all, we only house rule games we like enough to keep playing!


Thanks! This truly means a lot to me.


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Justin K
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3dragonfly wrote:

If you are able to filter dragons and battering rams, this will be a nice situation. We never found setting up the filter to be easy but, we knew to watch for it. Also, if a person did get it set up and acquired a clump of orcs, someone would use the Sappers on it at a perfect time and the orcs would swarm the player's inner city for point losses.


I can see why it might be non-trivial to do this, I suppose a couple stars aligned when I did this in our game. I separately had a moat row at the top of my barony, so rams weren't an issue. Additionally, two other players had arc rowa, so they tended to want the dragons. The one (and only IIRC) time I ended up with a dragon, I lucked out slightly and got Defensive Fire the following turn when the dragon hit the tower (although I had an archer I could've blocked with anyway). All in all the tower, which I built very early, netted me about 7 or 8 (or maybe even more) points from orcs just bashing their heads against it, which seems quite high for a single building.

I actually ended up winning with only a moat row and the tower. I got a total of 3 friendly units all game (I generally ended up being the splitter and always gave my opponents the friendlies), and aggressively collected battering rams, orcs, lures, and monuments for points. It ended up working extremely well for what seemed like very little investment, which is why I expressed concern. I'll still probably try a few more games before I enact any house rules.
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