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Subject: SAGS questions rss

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Ryan Lopez
United States
Washington
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I've played SAGS twice now (once, 4-player, and again last night, 2-player) and I have some questions:

1) Why is Cherokee Bill pulled from the 4-player game? If it's his IPS line, can't you just ignore that like with Franck? That's what we did and it seemed fine.

2) When throwing grenades, can I just throw one at a square with nothing in it with the intent of blowing up the walls/doors around it? Assuming I can target that square. I needed to blow a door, and that was my best chance (it worked, and wounded Jessica behind the door!).

3) While someone it searching the search deck, should everyone else be able to see the cards as they search? When we played, the searcher just picked up the deck and searched, but no one else could see the cards he was looking at after the top one.

4) Everyone seems to have problems with the search deck being too cumbersome. Has anyone proposed a successful "house rule"? I haven't tried any yet, but I have one or two I'd like feedback on: A) 1sp can be spent to flip the current card. Another sp would then need to be spent to pass the card. I thought this would make the "flip deck" option pointless, but not necessarily, since you may want to chance it (as you would with the regular rules) and see if the card you need is on the other side of the deck, rather than having to go (even more slowly) through the whole thing. B) build two randomized search decks--this would just make it easier to rule out half of the cards when searching.

Also, I think I'm going to use a variation on the "cheat sheet" posted in the downloads that at least tells you what is on the opposite of each card. I know some people oppose this, and I did too at first, but searching is probably the most random, luck-based aspect of the game until players have memorized the cards (giving them a "cheat sheet" advantage that the other players don't have).

5) SAGS is a little long for my group, even if I set up the board in a creative way ahead of time and we just get characters/equipment/missions and dive in. Which is to say nothing of actual set up/pack up time. How can we speed it up? Fewer rounds? Does team play make it faster? (I haven't really looked into those rules much).

6) In a related note, where can I find other gamers in the North-Denver/Boulder region? I've heard there are ways to find gamers on bgg, but haven't found it. This may not be the game for my group, but I love it.

Thanks, all!

 
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Peter Van den Broeck
Belgium
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Aren't that the same questions as in
http://www.boardgamegeek.com/thread/760194/streamlining-eart... ?

Answers to 2) and 3):
2) yes.
3) that's correct

For (5): I am also very interested in idea's

P
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Jan
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hi!

1) I think this applies in a mercenary mode and there's no reason for that in an alliance play 2on2 - Salemites vs Norad.

4) must say I didn't find anything 'cumbersome' once I got it grasped.. just the opposite! I see it as an excellent mechanism, that rewards imo memory, bluffing, timing and wise resources management..kind of another meta-game within the global one (like RS and traitors swinging and some others)
Cheat sheet is fully legal due to rules. That info is always open (eg. whats on the other side of an item that opponent has in use..)
Regarding deck itself, the top card(including its back side) is the only open information on a stack when it's not in use ..but also when it is 'cut' by an opponent if you shuffle that by the die result..

5) ..while I like long games, I find 6 turns to be a small count! ..have never tried to add a round(or 2) yet, but I guess that it would change a tempo, timing and balance somehow as well as decreasing this count would do as well.. (just a thought of mine)

PS: I'm truly sorry if I'm wrong in anything..
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Ryan Lopez
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Thanks guys,

Peter: Yes these are some repeat questions (plus some new). I realized that post was really poorly written and my questions seemed to be buried (plus it was more of a session report, which I didn't mean). Sorry if that is an etiquette violation.

Oskar,

1) do you know WHY Bill is taken out of the merc game though?

4) It sounds like you're saying that you can already look at the top card's back side? That doesn't sound right. I'm thinking more and more that the cheat sheet alone would solve a lot of problems.

Ryan
 
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Jan
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TheCrazyPiper wrote:

1) do you know WHY Bill is taken out of the merc game though?

4) It sounds like you're saying that you can already look at the top card's back side? That doesn't sound right. I'm thinking more and more that the cheat sheet alone would solve a lot of problems.
Ryan


1) That's a good question (for Chris mostly)..I may only guess that's cos of his kind of treachery that is bounded to 'Norad side' while in merc mode there are no Norad/Salemite sides, just teams..
(On contrary the treachery of Franck is triggered by only one other character .hmm.)
Another issue/question for me is, that both betrayals are triggered by using Norads CPs, while in merc mode there are no Norad/Salemita CPs, just CPs (If I recall it right) ..would this imply that in a Merc mode Mon cannot charm on Franck..? But even if, it's a different gaming situation in this case for sure.

Another (more probable?) reason could be, that Bill comes (as the one and only character) in to a play already equipped with a powerful Flame Thrower but still for a common MP cost! (this balances his 'weakness' of being a traitor in Sal.vsNor. play but in Merc mode it doesn't.)

Yet another point is, why are Zombies excluded in the beginning? I think it's cos only Kendal can reanimate dead bodies.. ..any thoughts on this?

2)
Quote:
you can already look at the top card's back side?

In general, you don't need to look, while you *know*..
But you're right, in case of only one Search-point (MKII eg.) that turning upside down a top card could illegally reveal the next one.. It's not comfy to handle the deck to avoid it, I agree. In this case, the item list is the solution and I'm using it gladly. Another approach could be a memorizing all of the cards right?
 
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Ryan Lopez
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spokosin wrote:
[q="TheCrazyPiper"]

(On contrary the treachery of Franck is triggered by only one other character .hmm.)
Another issue/question for me is, that both betrayals are triggered by using Norads CPs, while in merc mode there are no Norad/Salemita CPs, just CPs (If I recall it right) ..would this imply that in a Merc mode Mon cannot charm on Franck..? But even if, it's a different gaming situation in this case for sure.

Another (more probable?) reason could be, that Bill comes (as the one and only character) in to a play already equipped with a powerful Flame Thrower but still for a common MP cost! (this balances his 'weakness' of being a traitor in Sal.vsNor. play but in Merc mode it doesn't.)

Yet another point is, why are Zombies excluded in the beginning? I think it's cos only Kendal can reanimate dead bodies.. ..any thoughts on this?


The rules state on page 40 that Franck's IPS line isn't used in multiplayer SAGS. His IPS just gives spy points and loads some cp on him. However, VASQUEZ's line turns Franck traitor, and I found another thread on bgg about how that is still (apparently) active in SAGS (so try not to use Franck w/o Vasquez!).

Anyway, that's why I don't see why you can't just ignore Bill's IPS line as well. It's less harmful to the controlling player than Vasquez's (hers turns Franck traitor for the whole game!). As for having a flamer for default, in our game that didn't help me at all (he was killed in one attack by Jessica with titanium claws), and if it IS an issue, either say he can't start with other equipment, or that he doesn't start with a flamer in SAGS. Easy fixes.

As for the zombies, I'm not sure why anyone would want them as one of their 2 or 3 characters anyway, but I'm positive they're taken out so Kendall can "raise" them--making up for how weak he is otherwise.
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TheCrazyPiper wrote:
The rules state on page 40 that Franck's IPS line isn't used in multiplayer SAGS. His IPS just gives spy points and loads some cp on him.

..true. Still I'd follow that rule in a Merc mode only; not in salemites vs norad sags multiplayer game - it wouldn't make a sense to me.. IMO general SAGS rules do not distinguish Merc and Ally plays enough..(it's not a matter of fact, but my 'intuition'/opinion only ..BTW there's out some official addendum regarding modes.. still it imo doesn't cover any details, it's just on 'main ideas'..

TheCrazyPiper wrote:
Anyway, that's why I don't see why you can't just ignore Bill's IPS line as well. It's less harmful to the controlling player than Vasquez's (hers turns Franck traitor for the whole game!). As for having a flamer for default, in our game that didn't help me at all (he was killed in one attack by Jessica with titanium claws), and if it IS an issue, either say he can't start with other equipment, or that he doesn't start with a flamer in SAGS. Easy fixes.


That was my first thought as well, why not to simply ignore his IPS?.. but again, he's equipped..and it seems to me to be easier to put in to the rules 'dont use him' rather than bunch of other special rules regarding one'n'only character, I guess..
But for sure, you can agree before play just to ignore it and start playing it that way! (I remember Chris several time mentioned that ER is open gaming system rather than tighten ruled game, each one is free to adjust whatever he wishes!)

Speaking of Bill, as far as I remember in my games, his role was always quite significant and I can't recall his 'killing' being somewhat frequent at all! Just the opposit, in his nature, he was always a treath to both sides! Also, in my exp. I got no doubts on his powers -meaning Flame Thrower! It's VERY usable indeed..
I can’t agree on your statement “It's less harmful to the controlling player than Vasquez's” (regarding Franck’s controlling player guess U meant) ..why? Because his treachery is for sure and relatively easy to accomplish, while Franck’s is not and it’s not…even if it's for the rest of the game

TheCrazyPiper wrote:
..why anyone would want them as one of their 2 or 3 characters anyway..

That's right!forgot, in 3+players Merc mode one is limited to 3/4 chars.. (but not in in two players merc SAGS mode,that has not been mentioned yet! hehe)

*******************************************
just to be clear and not to confuse other fellow geeks.. sorry for that..
Common rules (in a box) do not mention any 'ally' multplayer sags games, there is only Mercenary mode, no Norad vs Salemite style!
Idea of 'ally' 4 player SAGS game came from one extending official document I’ve found somewhere.
I got no idea, if anyone else is experimenting/using it.. I do, because I love 2on2 plays and ER universe was born for that..and it's so awesome!!!

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