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Subject: Red rss

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Mark Steere
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kingjames01 wrote:

Still, my point is that this is a 100%-of-the-time fix for a situation that happens less than 2%-of-the-time.

Doesn't seem worthwhile, honestly.

I understand that. Redstone was barely worthwhile to me, initially. I first posted the rules in text, without diagrams (when it was called Cancer) - something I rarely do. Redstone was just a concept I wanted to put out. But... like three people commented extensively on it in rec.games.abstract. When 90% of your game announcements are completely ignored, and 5% get a sentence fragment response ("nice job"), that's a lot of excitement.

So I wrote up a rule sheet, added diagrams and renamed Cancer to a non-disease. Now I'm wondering, in concrete terms, how good is Redstone? How does it compare to Go tactically? In overall gameplay experience. Yes the red stone is ugly. Order some carnelian stones. They'll offset the conceptual ugliness.

Games of annihilation are more intense, I believe. There's more on the line. You can't save face with a slightly lower score (offset by komi lol).
 
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Russ Williams
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A curious meta-question: why did you decide to change the original title (Cancer) to something else? Did people say they disliked the title (because of it being a disease name)? Or you decided it didn't seem as congruous with the gameplay as you initially thought?
 
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Mark Steere
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russ wrote:

A curious meta-question: why did you decide to change the original title (Cancer) to something else? Did people say they disliked the title (because of it being a disease name)? Or you decided it didn't seem as congruous with the gameplay as you initially thought?

Both - mainly the former. Corey Clark said the name gave him "bad vibes". And I saw repulsion on the faces of people I told in real life.

I had imagined Redstone being more cyclic than it turned out to be, kind of like Oust, but Redstone play is essentially over after a few singletons have been captured. Eventually larger groups do get captured, but that's only if you play to the bitter end. So, yes, the game ended up not being as "cancerous" as I had anticipated and I wasn't too sad to see the name go. Just a little sad
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James Ludlow
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MarkSteere wrote:
Games of annihilation are more intense, I believe. There's more on the line. You can't save face with a slightly lower score (offset by komi lol).


When I lose by 60 because I misread a life-and-death situation, my reaction is "That was dumb. I shouldn't do that next time. Oh well."

When I lose by 0.5 points, it is maddening. Every single move in the game comes into question. The intensity level during a close game, and then during the review afterwards is much higher.

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Mark Steere
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jdludlow wrote:

MarkSteere wrote:

Games of annihilation are more intense, I believe. There's more on the line. You can't save face with a slightly lower score (offset by komi lol).

When I lose by 60 because I misread a life-and-death situation, my reaction is "That was dumb. I shouldn't do that next time. Oh well."

When you blunder in Oust, a highly combative annihilation game, it ruins the whole rest of your day, no matter how early in the morning it happens. It is decidedly not "oh well".

jdludlow wrote:

When I lose by 0.5 points, it is maddening. Every single move in the game comes into question. The intensity level during a close game, and then during the review afterwards is much higher.

Of course. The intensity level is higher in a close game, for all games. I've played Oust a few hundred times and I'm pretty good at it. One time in particular I played Corey, and my heart was like BOOM……BOOM……BOOM…. Not part of the time. The *whole* time. I was thinking this going to knock some plaque loose in my veins.

I used to get the same physical reaction from Quadrature, primarily an annihilation game. But I never got that from any territory game.
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James W
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Now that I think about it, Go is the only board game that incites an adrenaline response from me.

I used to play Basketball competitively so I'm aware of it and it helps me focus, but man... close games of Go are INTENSE!

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Mark Steere
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Re: Redstone
Redstone is being played in the Life in 19x19 forum.
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Brendan Tracey
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Seems like an interesting variant. It's not too different from normal Go, but at the same time it completely changes the life/death status of a lot of patterns.

However, it seems like we should be able to change the rules a little bit more. When you play Capture Go long enough you eventually find that the end comes down to players filling up their own territory, and then realize you might as well just count territory. A similar transformation should be able to happen here, where it's essentially go with chinese scoring, but there is the addition of red stones.
 
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Mark Steere
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Redstone is a game of annihilation, but as I think you suggest, it's also essentially a territory game. Redstone is larger than Go. There are more possibilities. Of course that comes at the price of an ugly red stone, but it might be the lesser of two uglies. I.e. the vanquished superko.

Redstone is the only Go variant I'm aware of that's better than Go.
 
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dypaca
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howeman wrote:
However, it seems like we should be able to change the rules a little bit more. When you play Capture Go long enough you eventually find that the end comes down to players filling up their own territory, and then realize you might as well just count territory. A similar transformation should be able to happen here, where it's essentially go with chinese scoring, but there is the addition of red stones.

Since no-pass go is already a variant, passing and scoring would actually be shifting the rules back towards standard go.

It seems like you could just use area scoring and score redstones as empty spaces (or just remove them when you score). The redstones would create a few odd cases that don't arrise in standard go scoring, but I don't think any of them invalidate the scoring. You may need to make a few extra moves at the end to define your territory.

This should get you the same result as playing to annihilation for all but extremely close games, and you could play on larger boards without having the potentially long endgame.
 
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Mark Steere
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dypaca wrote:
you could play [Redstone] on larger boards without having the potentially long endgame.

Exactly.

All this discussion of annihilation vs territory is academic and borderline pointless. You know when you've lost in Redstone, just as in Go, and you resign.
 
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dypaca
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dypaca wrote:
you could play [Redstone] on larger boards without having the potentially long endgame.

Actually I meant you could play the scoring variant I was describing. Basically it's the capturing rules of redstone, plus rules for how to determine a result at around the same point as you can in go.

I do understand, though, that with annihilation a player would forfeit rather than play the game to completion.
 
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