$10.00
Recommend
2 
 Thumb up
 Hide
51 Posts
1 , 2 , 3  Next »   | 

BoardGameGeek» Forums » Board Game Design » Board Game Design

Subject: Who's for Dinner? Open Playtest rss

Your Tags: Add tags
Popular Tags: [View All]
Matthew Rodgers
United States
Georgia
flag msg tools
designer
mbmbmb
It's festival time on Cannibal Island and everyone wants the honor of being the main course!

Who's for Dinner? is a fast and fun take-that style card game. Each player represents one of the the tribes on the island and tries to prepare a meal using the most valuable combination of spices. Meal Cards provide a bonus for meals prepared in a certain way. After everyone's had their fill, whoever did the best job serving up their tribespeople wins!

Okay, this game has been in development for a while and has gone through several rounds of playtesting, including blind playtesting. But some questions remain: are there any unbeatable combos or strategies that my playtest groups haven't come up with? While mathematically it should work at five and break at six, I'd love someone to try a six player blind playtest of the game. Does the game have general appeal or squick too many people out? (While the art here may not be final art, the same style will apply --- no blood, no body parts, no gore). Is it fun?

Testing the Game:

Full instruction and files for printing the game are here: http://mrwgames.com/print-play-help/whos-for-dinner-open-pla...

Even Newer Files!
Low(er) ink version: New version of the cards without the background, should cut down on ink usage. Note: These do not line up to the backs, so you'd need to sleeve or otherwise use them single-sided:
http://scrubpine.files.wordpress.com/2012/03/11025-wfd-cards...

Front of the cards with backgrounds: http://scrubpine.files.wordpress.com/2012/02/11025-wfd-cards... (very big, do a save as and then open)

Rules (8F2, updated 3/1): http://scrubpine.files.wordpress.com/2012/03/11025-wfd-rules...

I'll be very excited to see what everyone has to say about the game!

1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Nate K
United States
Utah
flag msg tools
designer
mbmbmbmbmb
Gutsy theme.

gulp
4 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jason Fordham
United States
Rome
Georgia
flag msg tools
designer
mbmbmb
I played with the playtest deck mailed to me by Matthew.

I love the finish on the playtest cards! Everything about the game is clean and clear. Nice mini-rulebook, too!

A few notes on a three-player game followed by our take on it:

1. ) Nit-picky: Separating out the Meal Cards was not as easy as it sounds. I think it is because the blue borders are thin. I also did not know how many I was looking for, so I had to flip back through the deck a few times to make sure I had all four. Then I still wasn't completely sure I had not missed one as they are numbered: 1, 2, 3, and 5 (where is four, was my thinking?) Of course, after you get going, things make perfect sense.

2.) Everything else, set-up wise, was a breeze.

3.) Objective is clear and fun, plus, having the alternate objective that ignores the Meal Cards was nice, too.

4.) Item Phase turn upkeep is easy: play items, play action cards, discard if you like, and draw back up to hand limit. I like simple steps. Nothing frustrates me more than having 11 options per turn. Who's for Dinner keeps it simple, and that's good in my opinion.

5.) Action Phase is just as easy as Item Phase.

6.) "Eat Me!" is a nice fun element for sure!

7.) Nice Rule Summary on the back of the rule booklet. That was helpful as we played our first game.

And now, our take on the game.

The game is compact and easy to get into.

I played with my friends Legarè [luh-gree] and Trey. We played down town at Cups & Mugs, a very nice coffee shop on Broad Street that caters to laptops, books, and games.

They loved the ides of cannibals, and so do I, so the game had us at theme. We all three wished there were nicely-drawn images of tribes, cannibals, dishes, fires, clean hands, etc to add to the theme, but we understood this was not a final version.

Trey is always a rebel so he ignored the Meal Cards and constantly tried to use "Eat Me!" Legarè and I spent our time focusing on scoring via Meal Cards.

There was a little confusion during "Eat Me!" and scoring: Must have Fire, Pot, Spice. Discard only Pot and Fire and hand, keep spices for scoring, If Meal Card is fulfilled, add to scoring pile, otherwise remove from game, start new Meal Card, other players may score, too.

So, all in all, our first couple of turns were spent reading the "Eat Me!" page of the rules, but that's how these things go at first.

We all had fun, and we will play again!
4 
 Thumb up
5.00
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Matthew Rodgers
United States
Georgia
flag msg tools
designer
mbmbmb
CalebSkye wrote:

So, all in all, our first couple of turns were spent reading the "Eat Me!" page of the rules, but that's how these things go at first.


I've posted an updated version of the rules in the parent post, clarifying the eating rules and touching up a few other minor issues that other offline playtesters had caught.

Also, art is definitely not final... I'm thinking that the Kickstarter will have levels something like this:

X: Get WFD? as it now
X+Y: Get new art for WFD? and then go to production.
Z: Get WFD? plus promo card
Z+Y: Get new art for WFD? plus promo and then go to production.

Thoughts anyone?
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jason Fordham
United States
Rome
Georgia
flag msg tools
designer
mbmbmb
I don't know how I feel about offering two versions of the art.

Hmmm.

I'd always go for the "better" art, personally, but there will be some who would go for the least expensive version.

Explain the "and then go to production" part. Does that mean X and Z are PDF only or?

Thanks!
Jason
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Matthew Rodgers
United States
Georgia
flag msg tools
designer
mbmbmb
No X and Z are costs for physical copies, I would just be clear with people... If you vote with your pledge for new art it will take longer for the game to get to your hands than if it had stayed in it's current icons-only formst.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Andreas Pelikan
Austria
Vienna
flag msg tools
designer
mbmbmbmbmb
CalebSkye wrote:
We all three wished there were nicely-drawn images of tribes, cannibals, dishes, fires, clean hands, etc to add to the theme,

That were my thoughts exactly when I first looked at the cards. From the rules it sounds like Munchkin light with a tongue in cheek theme. Munchkin isn't the most strategic game, but it has a big fan base because it is fun and has tons of in-jokes. Strip off the great cartoons and the cultural references, and it's only half the fun.

The name Who's for dinner is a clever one, but the cards are sterile. Of course you want to steer clear of dark imagery (Silence of the Lambs or Apocalypto). Have a look at Papua and Fiji. When I play the cumin card, I'd like it if the graphics would make me want to voice out 'cluck-cluck-cluck' (e.g. one villager hiding behind a pot, and the others giving them the 'chicken' gesture). If the art is arid, the setting might be perceived too grave.

There is no distinction between flavor text (on the spice cards) and rules text on the cards. I don't think you'd need any rule text on the spice, pot and fire cards. Aren't we aiming at collecting a pot, a fire and one or more spices? What does it help if the pot card informs me that I need it? Well, if it tells me that I also need a fire and spice(s), that might be different.

Pot and fire should look very distinct from spices and from each other. Spices should look similar, yet it should be easy to tell different spices apart.

The rules texts on the action cards are very wordy and would put me off. The card titles help, once you know the game, but some of them are not very intuitive. Sometimes there are intuitive rules worded out in detail at full size. Separating the core and the details would make it less deterring. Example:
Magic Trick:
Swap your hand and your face-up cards
put you face-up cards in your hand and ...

There are some rules on the cards which seem to be remnants from previous versions or in preparation of expansions, and complicate things unnecessarily (mostly regarding 'hand limit'). Consider cleaning that up.

Is it possible to discard items from your face-up display?

I guess Reaction cards should be clearly labeled as such. Magic trick seems to be an action/reaction card.

good luck, and don't invite me for potluck
2 
 Thumb up
1.00
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Stefan D
United Kingdom
Brislington
Bristol
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Strictly as someone who is very new to playing anything other than Run of the mill boardgames (which i dont think i will ever go back to now!)

But with an eye for design....

Having read through the rules and looked at the actual cards... the game sounds like it plays well and would be my type of game.

However:

The cards are very bland and very text heavy. I personally think the art is a big part of any game.. and it is primarily what draws someone to the game.

If you look recently at games like Farmageddon and Lemonade Stand that were both on kickstarter.. Both have very nice art and are light on text on the cards.

As mentioned above, i think a light art style to this would be appropriate and really add to the joy of playing it.
1 
 Thumb up
1.00
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Matthew Rodgers
United States
Georgia
flag msg tools
designer
mbmbmb
Puschl wrote:
When I play the cumin card, I'd like it if the graphics would make me want to voice out 'cluck-cluck-cluck' (e.g. one villager hiding behind a pot, and the others giving them the 'chicken' gesture). If the art is arid, the setting might be perceived too grave.


I'm definitely taking the art issue under advisement... I don't want anything too dark, gory or offensive but humor would help. I'm not sure on your specific art direction, since remember it's an honor to be eaten, and no-one should be shirking from it (I think keeping being eaten a desirable outcome is essential to the humor and reduction of the squick factor, since it turns people's assumption on their head).

Quote:
There is no distinction between flavor text (on the spice cards) and rules text on the cards.


I'm not sure I understand... the flavor text is bold and on a separate line from the rules text. What were you thinking to distinguish it?

Quote:
I don't think you'd need any rule text on the spice, pot and fire cards. Aren't we aiming at collecting a pot, a fire and one or more spices? What does it help if the pot card informs me that I need it? Well, if it tells me that I also need a fire and spice(s), that might be different.[/q[

Yes, this was an effort to keep the rules on the cards and the rules in the booklet as simple as possible. I do like your suggestion of listing the other things needed instead though.

[q]The rules texts on the action cards are very wordy and would put me off. The card titles help, once you know the game, but some of them are not very intuitive. Sometimes there are intuitive rules worded out in detail at full size. Separating the core and the details would make it less deterring. Example:
Magic Trick:
Swap your hand and your face-up cards
put you face-up cards in your hand and ...


Good points. Some of the wordiness does come from trying to be clear... e.g. When you do Exchange, it's critical that you give the other player a card first, then take a card from them. That way if they've got a card that will stop you from taking the card, they keep the card you gave them. That's an intentional part of the rules and spelling it out on the cards seems to have worked the best in all the playtests (since players have a habit of reading the card out-loud it prevents people from having to check the rules).

The rest of the wordiness is just me, so I like your summation idea.

Quote:
There are some rules on the cards which seem to be remnants from previous versions or in preparation of expansions, and complicate things unnecessarily (mostly regarding 'hand limit'). Consider cleaning that up.


Yes, the last few months have been a process of moving complexity out of the core game and putting those things that worked into the first expansion ("The Stranger and Other Delicacies"). I'll look at the wording, but I don't want expansion or promo cards (like "Plenty Big Bag" which expands hand size and will be a promo card) to break the base game or require new rules explanations.

Quote:
Is it possible to discard items from your face-up display?


Yes. Relevant rules bit:
Quote:
Item Phase: Play as many item cards (green borders) as you want by placing them face-up in front of you.
It is acceptable to have more than one of any particular item card in play, but only one of them will count toward your score if someone is eaten.
Items with a picture of a pot in the corner of the card earn you points if you are the one being eaten; items with a plate in the corner earn you points if someone else is being eaten.
After you are done playing all the item cards you want to play, you may discard any other item cards you don’t want to keep in your hand.

You must end your turn with five or less cards face-up in front of you. Some cards do not count toward the 5-card limit, and will say so on the card.


Quote:
I guess Reaction cards should be clearly labeled as such. Magic trick seems to be an action/reaction card.


The vision of it was to allow someone to get a perfect set of Fire, Pot and Spices, keeping junk cards face-up to distract folks trying to steal stuff, then play Magic Trick to swap the two and achieve a high scoring round. I haven't ever seen it happen, so it's on the chopping block.

Quote:
good luck, and don't invite me for potluck


I just went to a covered-dish plus boardgames event last night. Why were people looking at me funny?
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Stefan D
United Kingdom
Brislington
Bristol
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Another thing i jsut thought of, with the different spices, you give yourself a real opportunity to stylise those cards and especially the text to represent what the spices are!

Have you thought of using a symbol system to cut down on the text on some of the cards?

I can see a lot of potential with some art in this game!
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jason Fordham
United States
Rome
Georgia
flag msg tools
designer
mbmbmb
zedturtle wrote:
I just went to a covered-dish plus boardgames event last night. Why were people looking at me funny?


Did you take chopped pork?

Regarding the flavor text, I agree with Matthew--having it in bold very much distinguishes it from the rules text. Maybe "space" rather than "distinction" was meant?

Jason
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Matthew Rodgers
United States
Georgia
flag msg tools
designer
mbmbmb
Jetpac wrote:
Have you thought of using a symbol system to cut down on the text on some of the cards?


I have, but a lot of playtesters have really dug the whole "You're trying to get a pot, a fire and spices. Play items, do actions, draw up to five. The rest of the rules are on the cards." aspect of learning the game.

I'm not opposed, but I just don't know if "This symbol means Reaction, this symbol means you get points for Eating. etc." gives enough benefits over the long term. I think longer games benefit more from icons than shorter games.

Quote:
I can see a lot of potential with some art in this game!


Thanks! Everyone's really excited about this one. Just need to get the art thing worked out.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Matthew Rodgers
United States
Georgia
flag msg tools
designer
mbmbmb
Based on feedback on the verbage on the cards here's some alternatives:

More space between flavor and rules:



---

New cards for Spices with the other things needed on the cards rather than what they do for you:



---

Simplified text for action card. The italicized text could remain, or more likely go away to have room for art. (Also, the big margins, thick borders and huge titles could all change in support of having funny pictures).



Same thing, but with an idea of changing color scheme to call out a reaction card.

 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Stefan D
United Kingdom
Brislington
Bristol
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
What i was going for was maybe instead of having:

you also need a pot and fire to be eaten

Replace it with Requires: (Pot Symbol) (Fire Symbol)

Symbols present in large format on the Pot and fire cards themselves...

again just reduces the wordyness.

[EDIT] Also doesn't the plate and pot iconography negate the need for "after being eaten, place this in your score pile" and "place this into your scoring pile when another player gets eaten"
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Andreas Pelikan
Austria
Vienna
flag msg tools
designer
mbmbmbmbmb
zedturtle wrote:
I'm not sure on your specific art direction, ...

It was just an example to illustrate what type of humor might work, not a specific suggestion. I really like the reverse angle (enjoying the hot tub, etc.).

zedturtle wrote:

Quote:
There is no distinction between flavor text (on the spice cards) and rules text on the cards.


I'm not sure I understand... the flavor text is bold and on a separate line from the rules text. What were you thinking to distinguish it?

I have been too brief. The flavor text on the spice cards is in the same (or very similar) font and size as the condition rules on the menu cards. Seeing the menu cards first, I'd conclude the flavor text on the spice cards contains important information (which it does: humor, but it's not necessary for learning the game).

So my point is: it's good to use certain type sets consistently across cards. E.g. Bold for card name, normal 12pt for rules, normal 10pt for rule details, italic for flavor text, etc. So when I see flavor text, I'm confident I can ignore it for the time being, and have a look and a laugh later on.

Quote:
The rest of the wordiness is just me, so I like your summation idea.

I like the fact that the card clarifies all special cases without need to refer to a 10 page rulebook. So yes, please, a brief summary covering most cases shown prominently, and all specifics in the small print.

zedturtle wrote:
Puschl wrote:
Is it possible to discard items from your face-up display?

Yes. Relevant rules bit:
Quote:
Item Phase: Play as many item cards (green borders) as you want by placing them face-up in front of you.
It is acceptable to have more than one of any particular item card in play, but only one of them will count toward your score if someone is eaten.
Items with a picture of a pot in the corner of the card earn you points if you are the one being eaten; items with a plate in the corner earn you points if someone else is being eaten.
After you are done playing all the item cards you want to play, you may discard any other item cards you don’t want to keep in your hand.

You must end your turn with five or less cards face-up in front of you. Some cards do not count toward the 5-card limit, and will say so on the card.

The rules don't specify whether you must not play a 6th item into your display, or whether you have to discard down to 5 if you played more. Intuitively I'd choose the latter (which turned out to be your intention), but some rules lawyers might judge differently.

Quote:
Quote:
good luck, and don't invite me for potluck

I just went to a covered-dish plus boardgames event last night. Why were people looking at me funny?

Did the host ask you to bring a friend? surprise
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Matthew Rodgers
United States
Georgia
flag msg tools
designer
mbmbmb
Puschl wrote:

I have been too brief. The flavor text on the spice cards is in the same (or very similar) font and size as the condition rules on the menu cards. Seeing the menu cards first...


So noted and will be fixed.

Quote:
Play as many item cards (green borders) as you want by placing them face-up in front of you.
It is acceptable to have more than one of any particular item card in play, but only one of them will count toward your score if someone is eaten.
Items with a picture of a pot in the corner of the card earn you points if you are the one being eaten; items with a plate in the corner earn you points if someone else is being eaten.
After you are done playing all the item cards you want to play, you may discard any other item cards in your hand that you don’t want to keep .

You must end your turn with five or less cards face-up in front of you. Some cards do not count toward the 5-card limit, and will say so on the card.


Quote:
The rules don't specify whether you must not play a 6th item into your display, or whether you have to discard down to 5 if you played more. Intuitively I'd choose the latter (which turned out to be your intention), but some rules lawyers might judge differently.


Is there a better way to word the two bolded areas so that my intention comes through clearer?

Edit: Changed wording of hand phrase to make it clearer.

Quote:
Did the host ask you to bring a friend? surprise


 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Matthew Rodgers
United States
Georgia
flag msg tools
designer
mbmbmb
Jetpac wrote:
What i was going for was maybe instead of having:

you also need a pot and fire to be eaten

Replace it with Requires: (Pot Symbol) (Fire Symbol)

Symbols present in large format on the Pot and fire cards themselves...

again just reduces the wordyness.


Here's a design that incorporates that idea and changes the format up in anticipation of having card specific art (the grey area is the art area):



Quote:
[EDIT] Also doesn't the plate and pot iconography negate the need for "after being eaten, place this in your score pile" and "place this into your scoring pile when another player gets eaten"


You're absolutely right, I included it in the above example card because I wanted to show where rules notes could go, but it's redundant as you mention.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jason Fordham
United States
Rome
Georgia
flag msg tools
designer
mbmbmb
zedturtle wrote:
Jetpac wrote:
What i was going for was maybe instead of having:

you also need a pot and fire to be eaten

Replace it with Requires: (Pot Symbol) (Fire Symbol)

Symbols present in large format on the Pot and fire cards themselves...

again just reduces the wordyness.


Here's a design that incorporates that idea and changes the format up in anticipation of having card specific art (the grey area is the art area):



Quote:
[EDIT] Also doesn't the plate and pot iconography negate the need for "after being eaten, place this in your score pile" and "place this into your scoring pile when another player gets eaten"


You're absolutely right, I included it in the above example card because I wanted to show where rules notes could go, but it's redundant as you mention.


I like this better!
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
mike
United States
columbus
Ohio
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Is it wrong the first thing I thought of when I saw the title was cannibals?

This is pretty cool though
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Stefan D
United Kingdom
Brislington
Bristol
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
This is hands down a mile better already!

Is there any reason for the mirroring of the card title on the bottom?
A Jazzed up pot and some slick title text will really make this Pop!

(my personal tastes of course)
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Andrew Rowse
United Kingdom
North London
flag msg tools
designer
mbmbmbmbmb
I'd be tempted to drop the flavour text (if you have the right art, the art will convey the flavour better than text), and get rid of the upside down bit at the bottom of the card. To me, both of those things are unattractive.

Game seems great!
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jason Fordham
United States
Rome
Georgia
flag msg tools
designer
mbmbmb
My OCD wants the mirroring.
MY creative side does not.

It definitely looks better without mirroring.

I just played Aracana and Rune Age this afternoon--neither of which have mirrored cards--and it was fine. You just flip them around, or read them upside down.

If you do go with mirroring, what about mirroring everything?

Just a thought.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Matthew Rodgers
United States
Georgia
flag msg tools
designer
mbmbmb
Well, the thing with the mirroring is that it's a take-that game that's supposed to play very fast. Having mirrored large-size titles and points values solves a lot of "what's that card again?" issues. Of course, all the playtest decks didn't have any art, so that could be back up for negotiation...
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Matthew Rodgers
United States
Georgia
flag msg tools
designer
mbmbmb
80sgamer wrote:
Is it wrong the first thing I thought of when I saw the title was cannibals?


No, it's not wrong at all... it's spot on!
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Andreas Pelikan
Austria
Vienna
flag msg tools
designer
mbmbmbmbmb
zedturtle wrote:

I like the direction this is heading. The symbols made me think: why is there a big pot in the corner instead of a spice shaker? Your items are:
Pots&Fire: discard after being eaten yourself, keep if someone else gets eaten
Spices: put on score pile after being eaten, keep if someone else gets eaten.
Plates: discard after being eaten, put on score pile if someone else gets eaten

Somehow this would lend itself to replace the current Pot/Fire icon by Pot/Fire/Shaker/Plate icons.

Likewise the Pot icon on the menu cards could be replaced by a menu list icon. Shaker and menu list should provide enough space to put a point value on it.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
1 , 2 , 3  Next »   | 
Front Page | Welcome | Contact | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertise | Support BGG | Feeds RSS
Geekdo, BoardGameGeek, the Geekdo logo, and the BoardGameGeek logo are trademarks of BoardGameGeek, LLC.