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Subject: Inefficient add boardgame procedure rss

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László Stadler
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This is not the first time that it happened to me. The last one happened with Defenders of the Realm: Battlefields.

I create a new game entry, provide all the information available with a link, in this case a post by the designer. Then after a month or so I get a notification that I should update the entry with more information.

This makes no sense. Entries can be updated later and as soon as the game entry is there a lot of meaningful discussion can take place and that might make the designer to give more information. Problem solved.

In this case I told at least 2-3 times that there is no other information available and now threads start to appear under the Defenders of the Realm entry as there is no better place to create them.

Is this really necessary?
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Paul DeStefano
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stadi wrote:

Is this really necessary?


Yes.

Otherwise we would have hundreds more entries for games that simply never existed.
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László Stadler
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Geosphere wrote:
stadi wrote:

Is this really necessary?


Yes.

Otherwise we would have hundreds more entries for games that simply never existed.


I still think this system is flawed. Someone already looking for the game entry: http://boardgamegeek.com/article/8481879#8481879

I could have faked the information but I won't. It's simply not available, but there is enough proof that the game exists. Or is a link to the post from the designer (a designer with a lot of successful games) not enough proof?
 
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Chapel
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stadi wrote:


I still think this system is flawed. Someone already looking for the game entry: http://boardgamegeek.com/article/8481879#8481879

I could have faked the information but I won't. It's simply not available, but there is enough proof that the game exists. Or is a link to the post from the designer (a designer with a lot of successful games) not enough proof?


It's not just a matter of a game existing, but that there is enough information to make a viable entry. Existence is not enough.
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László Stadler
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MWChapel wrote:
It's not just a matter of a game existing, but that there is enough information to make a viable entry. Existence is not enough.


What about the ones created for the BGG news blog? Game entries for those games are created all the time with a notification that not all information is available at this time. I don't really see a difference here.

As long as there is real proof that this is a valid game (like in my case) it's the same as with the games created by Eric (I think it's him who created them)
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Scott A. Reed
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stadi wrote:
I create a new game entry, provide all the information available with a link, in this case a post by the designer. Then after a month or so I get a notification that I should update the entry with more information

Mea culpa on the time factor here, with the holidays, a family vacation, and Nuremberg I let some oof the queues get a little over-large and I have been at-work on them to bring them down to acceptable levels.

Quote:
Entries can be updated later and as soon as the game entry is there a lot of meaningful discussion can take place and that might make the designer to give more information. Problem solved.


Entries can be updated later, but I can tell you from six years experience with database submissions and management that they aren't. One of my background projects has been to get more information in descriptions where it is lacking, and even where there are games owned by hundreds of people and that have thousands of page-views, the description will remain exactly as it was at the time of submission. A hope that a designer might give more information based on forum discussion isn't a place to hang the basis of a game entry; I send submissions back to designers all the time for more information because the knowledge they have in their head about the game doesn't make it into the description, and as the person who knows the most about yhe game in the entire world, he or she is in the best position to describe the game against all other people in the world.

The game administration and review process exists to ensure that good and useful information is making it into the database. The revision process allows the submitting user to take that information that was originally submitted and to expand on it in areas where it was deemed insufficient.

Here's what you submitted:

Quote:
A Defenders of the Realm card game.

It is a very fun direct battle card game for 2 - 4 players where you can take the Heroes or the Dark Lord's armies and battle over many of the locations you have come to know, and hopefully love, in the realm - each providing a benefit to the winner of the battle.


From this description I can determine that this game is 1) Fun 2) for 2-4 players 3) themed on Defenders of the Realm, presumably about locations I know because I have played DotR (which I have not) where something is gained from a "battle". What I don't get from this is what I do when playing. There are cards -- and that's about the extent of what I know. That puts it in a class with the 10450 "card games" listed on BGG, with little information to distinguish it from others.

If the designer / publisher isn't releasing more information about the game, more the pity to them because this scant information is not sufficient for the foundation of an entry. If this is the full extent of the information that is available for this game, then the existence of discussion is immaterial as this is the only present source of information from which any individual could draw, and thus the discussion is mere speculation.

When more information is available on this item, I will again review it for addition to the database, but in its present form it is not sufficient.
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László Stadler
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skelebone wrote:
Mea culpa on the time factor here, with the holidays, a family vacation, and Nuremberg I let some oof the queues get a little over-large and I have been at-work on them to bring them down to acceptable levels.


Sorry, this was not a complaint for the response time (I can absolutely understand that) but against the procedure that I think is not "geekfriendly" enough.
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László Stadler
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It seems that we don't agree here, but at least I had my voice heard.

One last question. What happens now? Obviously I won't be able to provide the information but as the game is in the submission queue no one else is.
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The Pariah
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skelebone wrote:
lot of stuff



Scott,

I say this *many* times; but I'll repeat it because it bears repeating.

If every admin had the same methodology for communicating that you do (ownership of a problem; contriteness; suggestion for a fix and general empathy for the issue raised); I'd the first in line every year to donate to this site.

I still do donate each year, but I'd be lying if I said I did it without thinking. By far, I know, when I read a thread that you've responded in, I'm going to be pleasantly surprised (well, maybe not surprised anymore), at the tenor of the comments.

(and, for anyone who thinks I'm a giant kiss-ass; please read over my history of contributions on the site; while I've never been so egregious as to be banned (or even warned), I've certainly been critical of a great many things -- it's only fair to be equally as effusive when I something that should be propped up as a model).
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Paul DeStefano
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Lemur wrote:
while I've never been so egregious as to be banned (or even warned),


I'm so disappointed in you.
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The Pariah
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Geosphere wrote:
Lemur wrote:
while I've never been so egregious as to be banned (or even warned),


I'm so disappointed in you.



Are you surprised? (Have you been? I'm actually more surprised if that's the case ... we're wordsmiths; we can get our point across without having to cross the line of inappropriateness).
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Paul DeStefano
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Lemur wrote:
Geosphere wrote:
Lemur wrote:
while I've never been so egregious as to be banned (or even warned),


I'm so disappointed in you.



Are you surprised? (Have you been? I'm actually more surprised if that's the case ... we're wordsmiths; we can get our point across without having to cross the line of inappropriateness).


Whether or not WE think its appropriate does not always match whether or not THEY do.
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Wade Hyett
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Geosphere wrote:
Lemur wrote:
while I've never been so egregious as to be banned (or even warned),


I'm so disappointed in you.


Yeah! Come on Chris! You need to step up your game a notch or two! LOL
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Even having been on the receiving of a few game submission rejections and requests for more information, I'm forced to agree with Skelebone.

I would personally rather deal with a few scant rejections and requests on my end, rather than 100's-1000's of insufficient game entry description in the BGG database. Yes some already exist, but adding to the problem hardly constitutes a solution.
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Doug Adams
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Is it just one person clearing the queue?

I submitted Elephant Memo a month or so back, a cute die rolling memory game by Colovini. My son loves it.

I went through the process of categorising, measuring box size, etc Took about 30 minutes.

It was turned down because it was the "same game as Memory", which was funny and frustrating at the same time. I was invited to resubmit the whole thing again if it wasn't the same game as Memory ... yeah, okay, I'll do all that again so someone can glance at it and reject it. Lesson learnt.

I see it's in the queue again. Hurry up, I want to log my plays (and upload my translation)
 
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Scott A. Reed
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dougadamsau wrote:
It was turned down because it was the "same game as Memory"; I see it's in the queue again. Hurry up, I want to log my plays (and upload my translation)

Your game was not declined, but was instead returned for revision. None of the information you have submitted is lost, but it waiting for you to make edits and re-submit. BGG moved out of the dark ages of binary Accept / Reject game submissions two-to-three years ago with a system that allows game entries to be returned to their submitters for revision. In many cases of revision, the elements that are lacking in the entry are corrected and the game is approved. The games that are returned for revision that are not acted upon wait in the revise queue for a couple of months, at which time I do a follow-up with a message the submitters that the game should be re-submitted or it will be moved to the decline queue. The decline queue still does not destroy / delete game data but instead keeps it in a separate portion of the database which can be revived with admin controls.

The Elephant Memo you see in the queue is your submission, and the message you received from me has a link in it that you can use to access that submission, edit it, and re-submit. All of your submission information is preserved, and the only element that needs an edit in the description to clarify the game and what players do when playing (and some more information to distinguish this game from traditional Memory would be helpful). My question about the item still stands

Quote:
Is this not merely Memory? If it is, it should be a version under that entry instead of a different entry; if this is different, please re-submit with information about how it differs.

To revise, go to this link: /item/revise/thing/118687


That link in the message is a link only accessible by you that takes you to your submission, re-presented in the original submission form, and allows you to make changes and re-submit.

I see a dozen or more Memory submissions a month, and because it is a game that lends itself to be nearly-infinitely re-themed it is a popular production. As it stands now we have ~250 Memory versions listed in the database, ~180 alternate names listed under the entry, and probably a dozen games in the database that should ostensibly be merged into the Memory entry because they were incorrectly accepted as different games, came into the database with information that made it unclear they were just a Memory version, or were accepted under older different rules that did not call for games with the same rules, mechanisms, and play to be combined within a single entry.
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Robert Wesley
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MWChapel wrote:
It's not just a matter of a game existing, but that there is enough information to make a viable entry. Existence is not enough.
This is a huge, steaming pile of "BS" and: "you're soaking in it!" I have tried to submit a GAME of which is missing the RULES, so, just how were anyone to: "make that viable?" Yeah! I can't even perform some request for those within its 'entry' until there were ANY in which to begin on such, and so the 'run-around crap' commences to endure. You're being 'snobbily facetious' on the matter, and that's 'moi' 'opining'!
 
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Scott A. Reed
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Robert-

Your submission of GaLakTik TakTik never had any information about the game or game-play, and only hinted at the theme of the game because it was listed by the miniatures manufacturer along with their line of space ship miniatures. The only information that there was a "game" here was that a rule-set was a reference to "GT Basic Rules" on a sell-sheet price list, and there was no further information about theme, game-play, and goal. The title of a rule-set is not a foundation of a game entry.
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Robert Wesley
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shake "not exactly!" Scott, as I was referring to yet another in this 'case'. I'd be more than happy to refer you upon this other ONE then, except that BGG currently isn't permitting access to where I could provide the '411' upon the matter from within my 'background' herewith since THAT is from a few years ago, no less. whistle

EDIT with that ONE then, finally: Supermarket Mania Game
 
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Doug Adams
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skelebone wrote:
dougadamsau wrote:
It was turned down because it was the "same game as Memory"; I see it's in the queue again. Hurry up, I want to log my plays (and upload my translation)

Your game was not declined, but was instead returned for revision. None of the information you have submitted is lost, but it waiting for you to make edits...


Thanks Scott, and apologies, I had totally missed that. I zeroed in on the "re-submit" as a sign I had to do it all again. I won't submit my Chuggington Memory Game, as that is Memory

Elephant Memo is resubmitted!
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Scott A. Reed
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dougadamsau wrote:
I won't submit my Chuggington Memory Game, as that is Memory

You can and should submit it, but submit it as a version for Memory rather than a separate game.

dougadamsau wrote:
Elephant Memo is resubmitted!

And it is approved.
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Doug Adams
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skelebone wrote:

dougadamsau wrote:
Elephant Memo is resubmitted!

And it is approved.


Wonderful - I'll begin adding content Thanks so much.
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Robert Wesley
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Good 'thangs' we 'got' THAT settled now, whose's NEXT?whistle
 
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Simon Lundström
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As one who keeps adding weird games from Japan, I can but say that Skelebone is doing an awesome job. It's really true what's said: The more information you add with the game, the more precise it is, the faster it's approved. Nowadays I don't just add what's on the box, I add my own summary of how the game plays; I warrant that makes it a lot easier for the admins who check the entries.
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Pontus Olin
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I can understand if there's a backlog, but still wanted to gently poke you about the game "Axis & Allies Air Force Miniatures: Angels 20", which has been in the submission queue for quite a while now.

Just wanted to let you know that the game is a new collectible miniatures game from a major publisher (Wizards) and that it's out and being played already. It's entirely separate from the rest of the Axis & Allies franchise, not an expansion or anything like that. There are rather a lot of fans of the game waiting to write reviews, log games etc.

So, we would really appreciate it if you took a look at it at your earliest convenience.
 
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