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Dominion: Cornucopia» Forums » Rules

Subject: Menagerie Dispute rss

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Dea Draper
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This is a menial quibble, and I apologize for asking it, but it was suggested boardgamegeek should be accessed for the answer.

Menagerie text says, "Reveal your hand. If there are no duplicate cards in it, +3 cards. Otherwise, +1 card.

I played the Menagerie and said I was drawing one card. I was told that I had to reveal my hand. I said the cards says, "Otherwise" and I have duplicates, and I don't have to reveal to get my one card.

We read the rules which did not address the reveal issue. The party insisted I reveal, so I flashed my hand and said I get one card. That made the opponent angry. If I were trying to get 3 cards, of course I would lay my hand down until all we satisfied I had no duplicates. They could look as long as they wanted.

I revert to the argument that it is common sense, and just slows the game down unnecessarily when I just want one card. The opponent insists that I am misinterpreting the card and not playing by the rules.

So, what is the consensus?
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Kenneth Stuart
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You HAVE to reveal your hand. The "otherwise" pertains ONLY to the "no duplicates" not the "Reveal your hand"

If it was an option, the card would say "You MAY reveal your hand."
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Kenneth Stuart
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Forgot to mention:

This is important because your opponent is now given a chance to see if you're going to play a card that will affect his or her hand.

Here's an example:
- You play menagerie and DON'T reveal your hand
- You play a Festival for +actions then play a Goons
- Your opponent discards a curse
- You then play a Mountebank and your opponent gains a curse and copper

Had you revealed your hand, your opponent probably would NOT have discarded the curse. You always have to give the opportunity to your opponent to see your hand, even if your opponent wants to memorize the name of every card you have (which would be a bit extreme in this game).
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Dea Draper
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Thanks for your feedback!
 
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J
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Alexandria
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Yeah what you suggested is technically cheating. Though it might be rare there are cases where you might want to draw less cards.

You do not have a choice in whether you get +3 cards or +1 card. It is based solely on your hand. Revealing your hand ensures that you get the right number of cards.


If you didn't have to reveal your hand to get +1 card in one of those rare cases where you might want +1 card but have no duplicates you could claim to have a duplicate just to get +1 card instead of +3.

Additionally while normally just showing you have a duplicate is enough to convince your opponents that you get +1 card, it is still your opponents right to be able to see and know every card in your hand if you are instructed to reveal your hand to them so if they want to see your entire hand and see what you have you must oblige or you are cheating again.
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Will Yum
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You must reveal your hand if you choose to play Menagerie.

===
Remember that in Dominion when you play a card you have to do as much of the text as possible.

So if you decide to play Menagerie you must do what the card says.

First line = +1 Action.
Second line = Reveal your hand.

There are some other items after those two lines, but that does not affect the answer to your question.

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Charles Waterman
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Reb the "flashing your hand" I'd go with a '3 second rule' myself. Just turning you cards around so fast that others can't really see what you have could be considered rude and out of spirit of the game. However, holding your hand out for other players to study it for, say 15 seconds or longer also seems out of character for a quick moving card game.
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Clement Tey
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montebanc wrote:
Reb the "flashing your hand" I'd go with a '3 second rule' myself. Just turning you cards around so fast that others can't really see what you have could be considered rude and out of spirit of the game. However, holding your hand out for other players to study it for, say 15 seconds or longer also seems out of character for a quick moving card game.
Just lay it on the table and continue with your turn..
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ackmondual
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familywontplay wrote:
This is a menial quibble, and I apologize for asking it, but it was suggested boardgamegeek should be accessed for the answer.

Menagerie text says, "Reveal your hand. If there are no duplicate cards in it, +3 cards. Otherwise, +1 card.

I played the Menagerie and said I was drawing one card. I was told that I had to reveal my hand. I said the cards says, "Otherwise" and I have duplicates, and I don't have to reveal to get my one card.

We read the rules which did not address the reveal issue. The party insisted I reveal, so I flashed my hand and said I get one card. That made the opponent angry. If I were trying to get 3 cards, of course I would lay my hand down until all we satisfied I had no duplicates. They could look as long as they wanted.

I revert to the argument that it is common sense, and just slows the game down unnecessarily when I just want one card. The opponent insists that I am misinterpreting the card and not playing by the rules.

So, what is the consensus?


Contraband and Montebank were already mentioned as examples where opponents who know your hand can use that information to their advantage while you're taking the rest of your turn. There are so many others, but to add only a few more to further illustrate the point... Torturer (if they know you have another, then some people will consider taking the Curse) and Envoy (which card the player on your left should make your discard).

You need to do your due diligence in revealing your hand. If you clearly show them and they don't want to look, then it's on them. However, I concur that flashing them isn't really enough for some people to confirm that there are no duplicates, let alone what they are. One electronic implementation I've seen, the program lets you know what the cards were even though a computer can fairly confirm lack of duplicates without letting other players know.

Forcing you to reveal your hand may slow down the game, but it's simply a required task. Many people I've talked to who want quicker games of Dominion will set up specific sets that reduce actions and card draws (sometimes down to 0) so they can get some very swift games in (e.g. lunchtime at work, or when there's only 25 to 30 min left in a gaming session)/
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James Newton
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If it says reveal then it means reveal. Even if the intent is to validate the consequence, it is still required.

In another thread, on the subject of revealing with Bureaucrat, Donald X. said:
donaldx wrote:
* The intent of the hand-revealing on Bureaucrat is to prove that you aren't cheating. Intent really doesn't matter though. The card says to reveal your hand, so you reveal your hand.
* Revealing your hand means revealing each of the cards in it!
* You have to reveal the cards for long enough for the other players to see what they are. If they didn't see, show them again. You don't have to leave your hand face up on the table while people pore over it, but you do have to let them see what all of the cards are.
* I have never seen it slow the game down at all. Usually knowing what's in your hand isn't making the difference for whatever decisions I'm making on my next turn. In the cases where it does matter, it's generally pretty trivial to see what you're looking for - oh, he can buy that last Province, oh, his hand sucks and Minion will be helping him.

You have to reveal the cards for long enough for everyone (who wants to) to see what they are. If they miss it somehow you have to let them see the cards again; this isn't a vision contest. You don't just quickly flash the cards - unless of course you are playing with friendly people who think that's fine, as I hope most of us are!
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Charles Waterman
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princemousey wrote:
montebanc wrote:
Reb the "flashing your hand" I'd go with a '3 second rule' myself. Just turning you cards around so fast that others can't really see what you have could be considered rude and out of spirit of the game. However, holding your hand out for other players to study it for, say 15 seconds or longer also seems out of character for a quick moving card game.
Just lay it on the table and continue with your turn..


Huh? Princemousey, does that mean that in your games, you're *not* clearly providing a "play area" for your cards in play so as to distinguish them from "hand" cards and your "discard pile"?
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Tim Stellmach
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I'm trying hard to understand the viewpoint where the "otherwise" does not refer back only to the "if" clause.

But I think it's awfully clear, actually.

Besides, Dominion consistently uses the "Choose One" phrasing for the thing you're describing (i.e., where the action to be taken is at your discretion, rather than contingent on game state).
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Dea Draper
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If....then. Yes, I do see it now, and it is obvious, and I don't see how I misread it. I was wrong. I really appreciate all this discussion.
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Daniel Loudon
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You do have to reveal your hand, as the card is written. I don't know why it's like this; I would have written it as "+1 action. You may reveal a hand with no duplicates. If you do, +3 cards. Otherwise, +1 card." or even "+1 card, reveal a hand with no duplicates to draw 2 more." but it is how it is.

The only two cards I can think of where revealing your hand at this point would make a difference are Torturer (if you reveal you have more than one and a Village) and Contraband.
 
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Paul W
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There are actually lots of situations where knowing your opponent's hand can matter. In addition to the ones you noted, as mentioned above there's the discard attack/Mountebank issue, the same thing for Masquerade (actually, with Masquerade you sometimes care even without a discard attack, combos with possession...etc.
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Tolle Colart
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You have to show your hand. But does it matter if other players see your hand or not? They can't change a thing and can't influence it and you wil be rid of all your cards after your turn.
 
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Jeff Wolfe
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Tolle wrote:
You have to show your hand. But does it matter if other players see your hand or not? They can't change a thing and can't influence it and you wil be rid of all your cards after your turn.

There are situations where it could matter. Suppose you have a Reaction card in your hand that you don't plan to play. Knowing it's in your discard and not your hand could help me decide whether to play my Attack card or my other card that's not an Attack. There are other examples, but that's an obvious one.
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Clement Tey
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montebanc wrote:
princemousey wrote:
montebanc wrote:
Reb the "flashing your hand" I'd go with a '3 second rule' myself. Just turning you cards around so fast that others can't really see what you have could be considered rude and out of spirit of the game. However, holding your hand out for other players to study it for, say 15 seconds or longer also seems out of character for a quick moving card game.
Just lay it on the table and continue with your turn..


Huh? Princemousey, does that mean that in your games, you're *not* clearly providing a "play area" for your cards in play so as to distinguish them from "hand" cards and your "discard pile"?

No, no, not at all.. So your in play area would be about a foot in front of you, yes? With the draw and discard off to the side. Lay your hand cards in the immediate space that is right in front of you, in the one foot allowance area before your in-play area.
 
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Charles Waterman
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I get it! Yeah, that's about what we do.

Montebanc
 
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Jay L
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Just leave them in the circle card holder thing you got in that kids' game your thrifted.
 
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