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Innovation: Echoes of the Past» Forums » Rules

Subject: Retroactive errata to Echoes setup and drawing rss

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Carl Chudyk
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The rules to the setup for Innovation: Echoes of the Past are now changed as described below, to fall in line with the setup for future expansions. The Iello version will include this change in the original rules.

Shuffle all the cards of each Echoes age, regardless of number of players, and stack them in the cross direction underneath the base cards of that age. Each age stack should look like a fat cross when viewed from above. When a player is drawing a card of an age, if there are no base cards of that age present, that age is considered to be empty and the player draws up as usual. Between the age stacks, starting hands, and achievements available, all base cards and all Echoes cards are used for a game, whether there are two, three, four, or five players.

When drawing a card from the stacks for any reason, if there are base cards of an age still available, and the player has at least one card in his hand but has no Echoes cards in his hand, he instead draws the top Echoes card from the second layer of the stack if one is available. If there are no Echoes cards available, he draws a base card.

Base cards returned to an age go beneath all undrawn base cards. Echoes cards returned to an age go to the bottom, beneath all undrawn Echoes cards.

As an example, if a player has no cards in hand and is dogmaing Physics, he must draw base, Echoes, base. If he returns them, they would be returned to the bottoms of their respective layers within the age 6 cake. When returning the base cards, he would lift up the first layer of the cake; when returning the Echoes card, he would lift up the entire cake.

If your particular ergonomics are circle- or cake-adverse, feel free to use a different shape setup, or separate piles, or an Echoes cards dispenser, as you see fit, to serve the above drawing rules.

Setup for cards belonging to future expansions of Innovation will follow this layer cake model, though the circumstances for drawing cards from those layers will be different depending on the expansion. Each expansion will require the base set, but will be playable with or without the other expansions.
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\m/ Stoner Rock \m/ (Joe)
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Well this simplifies setup a great deal.
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Timothy Hunt
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If I understand this correctly, if you have at least one Echoes card in hand, you will never draw an Echoes card, because if the Base layer is empty, the stack is considered empty, and you draw one level up.

Is that correct?
 
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Danny O'Donnell
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It seems like you'll see a lot less Echoes cards in the late game this way than with the old setup. It's not uncommon to end up with a couple early game cards stuck in your hand that you don't really want to play, and if one of them is an Echoes card you won't draw any more until you can get rid of it.
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Carl Chudyk
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Timotheous wrote:
If I understand this correctly, if you have at least one Echoes card in hand, you will never draw an Echoes card, because if the Base layer is empty, the stack is considered empty, and you draw one level up.

Is that correct?


Yes. Keeping an Echoes card in hand prevents you from drawing more Echoes cards, whether you do this deliberately or not.
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Mat Nowak
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Well this ruins the Innovation foamcore playing board that I made. cry

Time to design another one I guess.
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Willie Illie
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How interesting!

This seems like it will make for generally longer games than the previous setup rules, and more noticeably so for fewer players. I think I'm fine with that.

I like how players can have some control over whether they draw Echoes vs. Base -- if you want more Echoes, play more Echoes from your hand.

I do wonder if there is any way for Echoes cards to go into a player's forecast. Is there a rule for Echoes vs. Base and foreshadowing, Carl?

My playing partner and I will definitely give these a spin next time we play. I'm already excited about the reduced setup time, and looking forward to exploring the new strategic layers introduced with this errata. (Aren't all errata retroactive, though? )
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Joseph DiMuro
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illest503 wrote:
I do wonder if there is any way for Echoes cards to go into a player's forecast. Is there a rule for Echoes vs. Base and foreshadowing, Carl?


Since he said this new rule applies when drawing from the stacks "for any reason", that would seem to include when a dogma action tells you to "draw and foreshadow" a card.

Interesting; looks like a player with no Echoes cards in hand (but at least one Base card in hand) could end up foreshadowing several Echoes cards in a row.
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Andy Latto
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cchudyk wrote:
if there are no base cards of that age present, that age is considered to be empty and the player draws up as usual.

Does this apply even when the player has at least one card in hand, and no Echoes cards in hand, so that he would be drawing a base card?

Let's suppose I'm instructed to draw a 2, I have one card in hand, which is not an Echoes card, and the 2 pile contains only Echoes cards, while the 3 pile contains only base cards.

My best guess at what you intend is that because you have a card in hand, and no echoes card in hand, you try to draw a 2 Echoes card. Because there are none of these, you draw a 3 Echoes card (and would draw a 4 Echoes card if there were no 3 Echoes cards available, and so forth).

But if I take what you say literally, I should consider the two pile to be empty, because there are no base 2 cards available. So I should draw a 3. But the new rules say that I should draw a 3 echoes card, and there aren't any. So what do I do now? The new rules say that I can only consider the 3 pile to be empty if there are no base cards left in it, so I can't draw a 4, because I'm not considering the 3 pile to be empty. But the rules say I'm supposed to draw a 3 Echoes card, and there aren't any available; so what am I supposed to do?

Here's a clear, unambiguous rule that tells you what pile to draw from. But I'm not sure it's your intent. Could you tell me whether this is what you want, and if not, clarify what the difference is?

My suggested reformulation of the new draw rule wrote:

Whenever you are instructed to draw, either by a dogma instruction, a draw action, or a sharing bonus, first determine whether you are to draw a base card or an Echoes card. This is determined by the rule "If you have at least one Base card in hand, and no Echoes cards in hand, draw an Echoes card; otherwise draw a Base card". Once you have made this determination, if there is no card available of the number and expansion(base or echoes) that you are instructed to draw, draw a card of the appropriate expansion with a number one greater than instructed (and if there are no cards of that number of the appropriate expansion, increase the number again, and so forth).

 
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Joseph DiMuro
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cchudyk wrote:
When drawing a card from the stacks for any reason, if there are base cards of an age still available, and the player has at least one card in his hand but has no Echoes cards in his hand, he instead draws the top Echoes card from the second layer of the stack if one is available. If there are no Echoes cards available, he draws a base card.


Emphasis mine. Looks like, in your scenario, you would draw a 3 Base card.
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Andy Latto
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TrojH wrote:
cchudyk wrote:
When drawing a card from the stacks for any reason, if there are base cards of an age still available, and the player has at least one card in his hand but has no Echoes cards in his hand, he instead draws the top Echoes card from the second layer of the stack if one is available. If there are no Echoes cards available, he draws a base card.


Emphasis mine. Looks like, in your scenario, you would draw a 3 Base card.

Oops! Missed that. Thanks!

But I still don't find the rules completely clear. Let's suppose I'm supposed to draw a 2, and I have a card in hand, but no Echoes cards in hand, and there are no 2's remaining at all, either base or Echoes. I can see two rule interpretations possible:

Interpretation 1: Since I was supposed to draw a 2-Echoes, but there are no 2-Echoes available, I draw a 3-Echoes.

Interpretation 1: I was already directed that if there were no 2-Echoes available, I should draw a 2-Base. So now I'm in the situation "I want to draw a 2-base, and there are no 2-base available". So I draw a 3-base, as usual.

Which interpretation is correct?

 
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Jamie Pollock
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I'm intrigued! Is this a change to improve gameplay with echoes, or is it solely due to the need to incorporate expansions?
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Joseph DiMuro
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Andy: I'd go with "interpretation 3".

"I was supposed to draw a 2, but since there are no Base 2 cards available, I move up to the 3 pile (which DOES have Base cards available). Since I have no Echoes cards in hand, but I do have at least one card in hand, I draw a 3 Echoes card. (Unless there are none such, in which case I draw a 3 Base card.)"

In other words, you first decide which pile you are drawing from, and then decide whether you are drawing a Base card or an Echoes card.

That's my interpretation, anyway. We better wait for Carl to confirm.
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\m/ Stoner Rock \m/ (Joe)
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TrojH wrote:
Andy: I'd go with "interpretation 3".

"I was supposed to draw a 2, but since there are no Base 2 cards available, I move up to the 3 pile (which DOES have Base cards available). Since I have no Echoes cards in hand, but I do have at least one card in hand, I draw a 3 Echoes card. (Unless there are none such, in which case I draw a 3 Base card.)"

In other words, you first decide which pile you are drawing from, and then decide whether you are drawing a Base card or an Echoes card.

Based on Carl's description, this would be correct.
 
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Sean McCarthy
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Here is a pretty concise summary of how to draw a card under the new rules.

Draw an X
1. Is there a base X available to draw? If not, add 1 to X and go back to the beginning of step 1. (If X exceeds 10, the game ends.)
2. Do you have at least one non-EotP card in hand, and zero EotP cards in hand? AND is there an EotP X available to draw? If so, then draw it. Otherwise, draw a base X.
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Sean McCarthy
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Question: Achievements. Do we just use base cards for the achievements as in the base game?
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Carl Chudyk
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Quote:
Draw an X
1. Is there a base X available to draw? If not, add 1 to X and go back to the beginning of step 1. (If X exceeds 10, the game ends.)
2. Do you have at least one non-EotP card in hand, and zero EotP cards in hand? AND is there an EotP X available to draw? If so, then draw it. Otherwise, draw a base X.


This description is spot on. In the same vein as playing with just the base set, you determine the correct "non-empty" age first. You then determine separately what type of card to draw.
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Carl Chudyk
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Quote:
Andy: I'd go with "interpretation 3".

"I was supposed to draw a 2, but since there are no Base 2 cards available, I move up to the 3 pile (which DOES have Base cards available). Since I have no Echoes cards in hand, but I do have at least one card in hand, I draw a 3 Echoes card. (Unless there are none such, in which case I draw a 3 Base card.)"

In other words, you first decide which pile you are drawing from, and then decide whether you are drawing a Base card or an Echoes card.


Yes.
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Carl Chudyk
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Quote:
Since he said this new rule applies when drawing from the stacks "for any reason", that would seem to include when a dogma action tells you to "draw and foreshadow" a card.


Yes. Draw, draw and foreshadow, draw and score, draw and tuck, draw and meld, draw and X.
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Carl Chudyk
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SevenSpirits wrote:
Question: Achievements. Do we just use base cards for the achievements as in the base game?


Yes. Achievement and starting hand setup remain the same.
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Carl Chudyk
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Jambo wrote:
I'm intrigued! Is this a change to improve gameplay with echoes, or is it solely due to the need to incorporate expansions?


This change corrals setup rules that were less-than-ideal and threatening to balloon in complexity and tediousness in combination with future expansions. There was no grating problem with the gameplay of Echoes as the rules were before, once a game was actually underway.
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Jamie Pollock
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cchudyk wrote:
Jambo wrote:
I'm intrigued! Is this a change to improve gameplay with echoes, or is it solely due to the need to incorporate expansions?


This change corrals setup rules that were less-than-ideal and threatening to balloon in complexity and tediousness in combination with future expansions. There was no grating problem with the gameplay of Echoes as the rules were before, once a game was actually underway.


But this will, or I imagine it will (as I haven't played it this way yet), have a fairly substantial impact on gameplay, no? For instance, I imagine that it could increase game length, particularly for 2 player games?

For me, it looks to be a major improvement. For starters it will mean that every card has to the potential to be in play again! Strategies can be based around specific cards because you know they are in there. There's no longer a luck of the setup element to influence card stacks and setup should be a whole lot quicker.

Has anyone played it this way yet? I'm intrigued!
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Jonathan C
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Will an updated Rules PDF be uploaded either to BGG or to the AsmadiGames website reflecting this rules change?

Thanks
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Nathan Olund
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My brother and I played two games yesterday. The drawing rules take some time to get accustomed to. It was easier for me to notice when he missed drawing an Echoes card because I could see the back of the cards in his hand.

Game length didn't dramatically change, but I did finally achieve Supremacy (3x symbol in 4 colors! Haven't done that in 30+ plays but found it easy with more base cards available.

I was curious about one situation that came up. Ice Skates (I think) allowed me to return up to 3 cards from my hand then draw and meld a 2 or draw and foreshadow a 3 for each card returned.
Does this work similar to physics example, where it would go base, echoes, base if I had no cards in hand?
or they aren't ever considered part of my hand, so depending on my hand situation I would...
A) (with no cards or at least 1 echoes in hand) draw 3 base cards and meld/forshadow
B) (with only base cards in hand) draw 3 echoes cards and meld/forshadow

We played with the latter interpretation, that what was left in my hand mattered and the new cards being drawn resolved one after another. i.e. Draw and meld a 2, then draw and forshadow a 3, then draw and forshadow a 3.

Sound right?

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Chris Cieslik
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looleypalooley wrote:
Will an updated Rules PDF be uploaded either to BGG or to the AsmadiGames website reflecting this rules change?

Thanks


Yeah, once we solidify this + any collateral damage errata that is required (if needed), we'll post a PDF or a reference card thingy.
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