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Innovation: Echoes of the Past» Forums » Rules

Subject: Retroactive errata to Echoes setup and drawing rss

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Carl Chudyk
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ieatthem wrote:

...or they aren't ever considered part of my hand, so depending on my hand situation I would...
A) (with no cards or at least 1 echoes in hand) draw 3 base cards and meld/forshadow
B) (with only base cards in hand) draw 3 echoes cards and meld/forshadow

We played with the latter interpretation, that what was left in my hand mattered and the new cards being drawn resolved one after another. i.e. Draw and meld a 2, then draw and forshadow a 3, then draw and forshadow a 3.

Sound right?



This last part is the right. The previous card leaves your hand before the next is drawn, so they would be all base or all Echoes, depending on your hand at the beginning of the dogma.
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Ryan Wall
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This seems like a pretty large change, going to need to test this out to see how I like it.

Question: So with Industrialization would you be drawing and tucking echo cards if you had at least one basic card in your hand and no echos?
 
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Willie Illie
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perfectwall wrote:
Question: So with Industrialization would you be drawing and tucking echo cards if you had at least one basic card in your hand and no echos?

Yep!
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Ryan Wall
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My gosh. Well that makes Flute very sad…

EDIT: Also... So does that mean that the new expansion cards are going to be below the echos cards? So it will be if you have at least 1 base, 1 echo and no new expansion cards you would draw the a new expansion card?
 
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Chris Cieslik
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perfectwall wrote:
My gosh. Well that makes Flute very sad…

EDIT: Also... So does that mean that the new expansion cards are going to be below the echos cards? So it will be if you have at least 1 base, 1 echo and no new expansion cards you would draw the a new expansion card?


It does mean Flute isn't likely to chain more than once (but that was already quite unlikely). Chaturanga, I'm not sure where it impacts it?
 
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Ken B.
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My first reaction is "blech." It seemed like Echoes cards had not-as-much-impact on the game as I'd hoped; now it seems you'll see even *less* of them? Is that right?
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Tommy Occhipinti
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The thing I am most sad to see go is the scaling of the number of cards to the number of players. That was a huge problem with the base game that was fixed so beautifully by the expansion. I'm not sure I see why the number of base game cards isn't reduced with two players.
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Ryan Wall
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angelkurisu wrote:
perfectwall wrote:
My gosh. Well that makes Flute very sad…

EDIT: Also... So does that mean that the new expansion cards are going to be below the echos cards? So it will be if you have at least 1 base, 1 echo and no new expansion cards you would draw the a new expansion card?


It does mean Flute isn't likely to chain more than once (but that was already quite unlikely). Chaturanga, I'm not sure where it impacts it?


Chaturanga would also chain into more bonus cards which is also less likely this way of playing.

Notes after play testing: So far me and my friend are not very fond of these new rules. We are used to mixing the base and echoes decks for each age together and dealing out the necessary cards randomly.

In our two games we just played neither of us drew or drew and X much more then 5 echo cards . This is because we actively held on to our echo cards in hand so we could rise up the ages more quickly and score more effectively (ex. I held onto horseshoes (2nd Age Echoes card) the entire game to skip out on low age draw/scores). Reducing the impact of Echoes cards also reduces their effectiveness because many are synergistic with other Echoes cards which makes them even less appealing to meld.

Other Issue:
Does Noodles and other cards that make achievements using the bottom of decks take the bottom of the Echoes deck, base deck or the deck you can interact with because of your hands content?
 
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Joseph DiMuro
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perfectwall wrote:
In our two games we just played neither of us drew or drew and X much more then 5 echo cards . This is because we actively held on to our echo cards in hand so we could rise up the ages more quickly and score more effectively (ex. I held onto horseshoes (2nd Age Echoes card) the entire game to skip out on low age draw/scores).


Seems like the next playtesting step is to play a game where one of you hangs on to an Echoes card to draw as many Base cards as possible, and the other one of you tries to draw as many Echoes cards as possible. I'm curious as to what would happen.
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Ryan Wall
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TrojH wrote:
perfectwall wrote:
In our two games we just played neither of us drew or drew and X much more then 5 echo cards . This is because we actively held on to our echo cards in hand so we could rise up the ages more quickly and score more effectively (ex. I held onto horseshoes (2nd Age Echoes card) the entire game to skip out on low age draw/scores).


Seems like the next playtesting step is to play a game where one of you hangs onto an Echoes card to draw as many Base cards as possible, and the other one of you tries to draw as many Echoes cards as possible. I'm curious as to what would happen.


I would have to bet on the Base drawer player over the echoes one. It takes two actions to draw an Echoes card after your first (Meld the Echoes card then draw a new one) over base cards (Just a draw action). Plus all of the mass draw Dogmas can at most give you one Echoes card (ex. Fermentation, Paper, Wheel, etc)
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Ted Dickinson
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cchudyk wrote:

Setup for cards belonging to future expansions of Innovation will follow this layer cake model, though the circumstances for drawing cards from those layers will be different depending on the expansion. Each expansion will require the base set, but will be playable with or without the other expansions.


To be honest, I'm really not looking forward to the proposition of having to remember these rules plus additional rules for another expansion when it comes to figuring out which card to draw.

Probably to the point where, if that's the only way to "correctly" play the game as opposed to just investing some additional time in setup, I would seriously question whether to buy the expansion at all.
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Ryan Wall
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binary101010 wrote:
cchudyk wrote:

Setup for cards belonging to future expansions of Innovation will follow this layer cake model, though the circumstances for drawing cards from those layers will be different depending on the expansion. Each expansion will require the base set, but will be playable with or without the other expansions.


To be honest, I'm really not looking forward to the proposition of having to remember these rules plus additional rules for another expansion when it comes to figuring out which card to draw.

Probably to the point where, if that's the only way to "correctly" play the game as opposed to just investing some additional time in setup, I would seriously question whether to buy the expansion at all.


Yeah it was a little confusing at first, a lot of looking at the backs of our own cards to remember what to draw. Drawing from a bottom layer feels a little awkward too and will start to feel like Jenga with more layers...

Personally I would like it if there were both official layer cake and shuffle in rules, that way we don't have to play a variant thats not supported.
 
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Chris Cieslik
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Don't worry, at a minimum I'll have the original version of the Echoes setup + draw rules as an alternate set of rules available. I'll be testing out this new idea this week, so I can get a better handle of how it affects things in practice.
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Ian Kelly
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perfectwall wrote:
Yeah it was a little confusing at first, a lot of looking at the backs of our own cards to remember what to draw. Drawing from a bottom layer feels a little awkward too and will start to feel like Jenga with more layers...


Has anybody tried just making two separate, side-by-side piles for each age? It seems to me that that shouldn't take up substantially more table space than fat crosses.
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Chris Cieslik
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Peristarkawan wrote:
perfectwall wrote:
Yeah it was a little confusing at first, a lot of looking at the backs of our own cards to remember what to draw. Drawing from a bottom layer feels a little awkward too and will start to feel like Jenga with more layers...


Has anybody tried just making two separate, side-by-side piles for each age? It seems to me that that shouldn't take up substantially more table space than fat crosses.


Yeah -- if you have a bigger table that works just fine -- we did that tonight. If table space is at a premium, the crossed decks are more efficient (especially when a third pile is underneath...!)
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angelkurisu wrote:
Yeah -- if you have a bigger table that works just fine -- we did that tonight. If table space is at a premium, the crossed decks are more efficient (especially when a third pile is underneath...!)


Hmmm... third pile... seems like an expansion feature...

Anyways, my gut reaction is the same as well. Extremely confusing (which is not good for beginner players but I wouldn't start them with the expansion anyways) even to intermediate players. This type of design offends my sense of simplistic design (and the same thing happened with bonuses, but at least that was a balance mechanic. This doesn't seem to be the same.), and offends my sense of strategic space because you'll never get two Echoes cards by drawing, not to mention the severe effects on Flute and Chaturanga.

And I know the simpler way to explain it (if 0 echoes and >=1 base, draw echoes otherwise draw base)

The "drawing up your bases at a higher level" versus "drawing your Echoes" does concern me a bit, but both players draw from the higher level anyway when a pile runs out so I don't this it'll have as much of an effect.

I'll try it out for a while and see what happens...



 
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cchudyk wrote:
The rules to the setup for Innovation: Echoes of the Past are now changed as described below, to fall in line with the setup for future expansions. The Iello version will include this change in the original rules.


Speaking of Iello, that version has the age number in the place where the hexagon was. This will be very confusing for bonuses, is there anything in place to address that (probably a special effect to indicate it is a bonus rather than the age? I can see that being very confusing as well to someone who's staring across the table trying to figure out your bonus.)
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Ryan Wall
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angelkurisu wrote:
Don't worry, at a minimum I'll have the original version of the Echoes setup + draw rules as an alternate set of rules available. I'll be testing out this new idea this week, so I can get a better handle of how it affects things in practice.


That's good! I rather enjoy the card back color matters mechanic that Echoes brought to the game. It makes Dice and Astronomy much more exciting to activate.

I also enjoy the randomness of the setup the old way; knowing that gunpowder, coal or machinery are in the game almost every game is not a good thing for me.

angelkurisu wrote:
Yeah -- if you have a bigger table that works just fine -- we did that tonight. If table space is at a premium, the crossed decks are more efficient (especially when a third pile is underneath...!)


Its starting to sound like after the new expansion hits I will be mixing the base and echoes deck like I am used to then layer caking the expansion below it.
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Chris Cieslik
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perfectwall wrote:
angelkurisu wrote:
Don't worry, at a minimum I'll have the original version of the Echoes setup + draw rules as an alternate set of rules available. I'll be testing out this new idea this week, so I can get a better handle of how it affects things in practice.


That's good! I rather enjoy the card back color matters mechanic that Echoes brought to the game. It makes Dice and Astronomy much more exciting to activate.

I also enjoy the randomness of the setup the old way; knowing that gunpowder, coal or machinery are in the game almost every game is not a good thing for me.

angelkurisu wrote:
Yeah -- if you have a bigger table that works just fine -- we did that tonight. If table space is at a premium, the crossed decks are more efficient (especially when a third pile is underneath...!)


Its starting to sound like after the new expansion hits I will be mixing the base and echoes deck like I am used to then layer caking the expansion below it.


Well, Figures (the next exp) cards are definitely not shuffled in, so that works just fine (it's how we'd been testing it until saturday anyways!).
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Ryan Wall
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angelkurisu wrote:
Well, Figures (the next exp) cards are definitely not shuffled in, so that works just fine (it's how we'd been testing it until saturday anyways!).


Awesome, just what I wanted to hear! Hopefully the new rules wont impact your testing too much, I can't wait for the next quality Asmadi/Innovation product!
 
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Mat Nowak
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Luckily I was able to modify my playmat to account for this setup and rule change so now there are 2 separate piles to draw from. Sorry about the quality of the pic, it was taken quickly with an Iphone.



It only takes up the space of 2 8.5x11 standard size papers. Perhaps I will create a thread detailing how I made it if anyone wants to recreate their own version. We find it's a great space and time saver! (Not to mention good for the OCD types who constantly feel the need to straighten out every pile all the time). I was initially going to create a circular board but rectangular is much more space-efficient.

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Jamie Pollock
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Well, I for one, really like this change. It ensures all cards are in play or have the potential to be in play every game. Setup is much quicker and the game flows better with the emphasis back on the base set.

Flute is a really good card regardless of the change by the way.
 
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Jonathan Harrison
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Mateui wrote:
Luckily I was able to modify my playmat to account for this setup and rule change so now there are 2 separate piles to draw from. Sorry about the quality of the pic, it was taken quickly with an Iphone.



It only takes up the space of 2 8.5x11 standard size papers. Perhaps I will create a thread detailing how I made it if anyone wants to recreate their own version.

You should! I really like the look of this.
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Tony Bosca
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I bought this expansion this week after playing the base game for a few months... we've played with Echoes' published setup 3 times....

...here we go!

I think we're going to try the 2 piles/age table setup. I think I'd go nuts otherwise. surprise
 
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Tony Bosca
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blakstar wrote:
I bought this expansion this week after playing the base game for a few months... we've played with Echoes' published setup 3 times....

...here we go!

I think we're going to try the 2 piles/age table setup. I think I'd go nuts otherwise. surprise


Well having played this with the original setup a few times and now the "retroactive" setup, I must say I like the original setup better as of now.

-The pacing/scaling of the game seemed better with the mixed preperation
-The "gaming" of the card draws with some of the Echoes cards seems "cheap" and less fun than it did before
-The game is much longer
-It seems with 2 that the players play a good majority of the stacks before being able to progress to the next... I know this is something that I could improve at for I don't know the expansion cards as well as the base and I remember the "strategic" learning curve of the base- but I just don't know if the games moves through the ages as fluidly as it did before.

I'll keep playing with the new setup hoping that maybe some tweaks will come about through your continued playtesting, but as of right now, the game felt "funner" the way it was.

...maybe things will make more sense when the new set is published?

Thanks for making a great game. Your passion is evident, as it shows you guys must be still thinking up new things for this great system!
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