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Subject: Potion Making rss

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Ilya Bezlyudnyy
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Can I use Potion Making skill (heal 2) immediately after receiving (due to level up) before drawing new cards?
 
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Paul Grogan
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Nelud wrote:
Can I use Potion Making skill (heal 2) immediately after receiving (due to level up) before drawing new cards?


No. You level up after your turn has finished. This is designed so that the next player can be taking their turn whilst you are making decisions.
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Maxim Maltsev
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PaulGrogan wrote:
Nelud wrote:
Can I use Potion Making skill (heal 2) immediately after receiving (due to level up) before drawing new cards?


No. You level up after your turn has finished. This is designed so that the next player can be taking their turn whilst you are making decisions.

Actually this is wrong. According to rules your turn is finished when you take new cards. This happends during last phase of turn "End of Turn" phase. Walkthrough page 7, Rulebook page 9.

So until you collect catds its still your turn. The only problem is in walkthrough exist list of things you can do during End of Turn.
But special cards and skills do not have any written contsrains on End of Turn.
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Drake Coker
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Tanone wrote:
PaulGrogan wrote:
Nelud wrote:
Can I use Potion Making skill (heal 2) immediately after receiving (due to level up) before drawing new cards?


No. You level up after your turn has finished. This is designed so that the next player can be taking their turn whilst you are making decisions.

Actually this is wrong. According to rules your turn is finished when you take new cards. This happends during last phase of turn "End of Turn" phase. Walkthrough page 7, Rulebook page 9.

So until you collect catds its still your turn. The only problem is in walkthrough exist list of things you can do during End of Turn.
But special cards and skills do not have any written contsrains on End of Turn.


I think the intention is that *only* the items mentioned in the End of Turn section are performed once you declare the end of your turn. However, I agree the rules do not clearly state that.

The phrasing point 7 of A Player's Turn on page 5 of the rules suggests that you are done with "everything you wanted to do". The finalization phase is all mandatory bookkeeping stuff and leads me to believe that using skills is not allowed.


 
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Maxim Maltsev
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But phrase that next player can wait and watch what you are doing in this phase suggests that you can do something important, like playing skills or special cards from hand.
Actually looks like you can wait crystals from mine and use them for special cards.
 
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Jeff Bridgham
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Tanone wrote:
But phrase that next player can wait and watch what you are doing in this phase suggests that you can do something important, like playing skills or special cards from hand.
Actually looks like you can wait crystals from mine and use them for special cards.


No, the important things you can do will be during your level up. Like take an advanced action and a skill. These things may give your opponent a clue about how you are intending to play your next turn. More often than not this isn't important to the next player, but occasionally they might want to know.

No rule book ever lists everything you can't do during certain phases, that would be too cumbersome. Instead it will tell you what you can do. So, if what you want to do is not listed in the end of turn phase, you can't do it then.
 
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Marcel
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Tanone wrote:
PaulGrogan wrote:
Nelud wrote:
Can I use Potion Making skill (heal 2) immediately after receiving (due to level up) before drawing new cards?


No. You level up after your turn has finished. This is designed so that the next player can be taking their turn whilst you are making decisions.

Actually this is wrong. According to rules your turn is finished when you take new cards. This happends during last phase of turn "End of Turn" phase. Walkthrough page 7, Rulebook page 9.

So until you collect catds its still your turn. The only problem is in walkthrough exist list of things you can do during End of Turn.
But special cards and skills do not have any written contsrains on End of Turn.

Actually, according to the rules, it is more accurate to say there are 2 turn endings. rulebook page 5, a a players turn section 7) Says that your turn is finished when you announce that your turn is over. After this point, you can take no more actions.

Then the end of turn section from page 9 comes, which is the purely administrative part of your turn. One of the things you do during the administrative part is getting the the new cards. After you got your new cards.

Since all actions must be taken before the announcement of your end of turn, end you get new cards after you announce your end of turn, it is not possible to use a new card immediately.

Also, remember that new cards go to your deed deck, so they need to be drawn before you can use them.


I do believe that there is one method to use a card you gain during the same turn. (please someone correct me if I'm wrong.)

When you buy a new spell/advanced action or artifact, it immediately goes to the top of your deed deck. If you then use a card or skill to draw new cards, you would immediately be able to use it.
 
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Bryan F
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Tanone wrote:
PaulGrogan wrote:
Nelud wrote:
Can I use Potion Making skill (heal 2) immediately after receiving (due to level up) before drawing new cards?


No. You level up after your turn has finished. This is designed so that the next player can be taking their turn whilst you are making decisions.


Actually this is wrong. According to rules your turn is finished when you take new cards. This happends during last phase of turn "End of Turn" phase. Walkthrough page 7, Rulebook page 9.

So until you collect catds its still your turn. The only problem is in walkthrough exist list of things you can do during End of Turn.
But special cards and skills do not have any written contsrains on End of Turn.


You do know that next to Vlaada, Paul is like, the rules guru? I'd be much more inclined to go with his ruling rather than internet guy's interpretation.
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Andy Y
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jebry wrote:
No rule book ever lists everything you can't do during certain phases, that would be too cumbersome. Instead it will tell you what you can do. So, if what you want to do is not listed in the end of turn phase, you can't do it then.

"Holy crap, Jake! Did you just try to stab me? What are you doing?"

"Well, in the rulebook section on the end of turn phase, it doesn't list stabbings as a thing I can't do."
 
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Paul Grogan
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Tanone wrote:
PaulGrogan wrote:
Nelud wrote:
Can I use Potion Making skill (heal 2) immediately after receiving (due to level up) before drawing new cards?


No. You level up after your turn has finished. This is designed so that the next player can be taking their turn whilst you are making decisions.

Actually this is wrong. According to rules your turn is finished when you take new cards. This happends during last phase of turn "End of Turn" phase. Walkthrough page 7, Rulebook page 9.

So until you collect catds its still your turn. The only problem is in walkthrough exist list of things you can do during End of Turn.
But special cards and skills do not have any written contsrains on End of Turn.


Ok, let me clarify...

Rulebook, page 5: A Player's Turn. Section 7.

Once you have completed your turn (i.e done everything), you announce your turn is over. Section 7c - you finalize your turn and do things it says in "End of Turn".

So.... End of Turn section, page 9
This is where you get the benefits of your space, rewards from combat, you level up, you get new skills, etc.

Whilst you are in your 'End of Turn' section, your turn is actually already over. You cannot use skills, spells, etc when you are doing your "End of the Turn" bits.

Hope that is clearer.

In other words... what Marcel said earlier on is absolutely correct. The one exception I think he is thinking of is when you gain the reward in a ruins of a new unit - you can take this if your new level up will allow you to have that unit.
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Maxim Maltsev
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PaulGrogan wrote:

Rulebook, page 5: A Player's Turn. Section 7.

Once you have completed your turn (i.e done everything), you announce your turn is over. Section 7c - you finalize your turn and do things it says in "End of Turn".

So.... End of Turn section, page 9
This is where you get the benefits of your space, rewards from combat, you level up, you get new skills, etc.

Whilst you are in your 'End of Turn' section, your turn is actually already over. You cannot use skills, spells, etc when you are doing your "End of the Turn" bits.

Hope that is clearer.


No. Its is not clear at all.
Actually according to rules we have 2 end of turns. When you announce about that and when you draw new cards. I interpret this so that by announcing that your turn is over you just start last phase "End of turn" phase. This is just border between phases.
You could not use your new cards that is clear because drawing of cards is last thing you can do in your turn. That is specificaly written.
You could not use new crystals this is specificaly written too, I have found that ruling.
It is specificaly written that End of turn is still your turn. And it is specificaly written that you can use your skills, special and heal cards any time during your turn. No prohibitions specificaly written for skills, special and heal cards.
From that I am complitely legaly interprete that you CAN use your old cards and new skills during End of Turn.
Actually in this game you always can use immediatly everything you receive during your turn crystals, units, cards and so on.
 
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Paul Grogan
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Tanone wrote:
From that I am complitely legaly interprete that you CAN use your old cards and new skills during End of Turn.


If you choose to interpret the rules and play like that, it is your choice. I am telling you that this is not correct. If you want the official answer however, please post this question in the official FAQ thread, where I will copy and paste my above responses, so that your question is answered in the official thread.

Whether it is clear or not in the rulebook, everything that happens in your 'End of Turn step' is actually AFTER you have completed your turn and the next player is taking their turn. You CANNOT then start using cards / skills, etc.
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Maxim Maltsev
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PaulGrogan wrote:

If you choose to interpret the rules and play like that, it is your choice. I am telling you that this is not correct. If you want the official answer however, please post this question in the official FAQ thread, where I will copy and paste my above responses, so that your question is answered in the official thread.

Whether it is clear or not in the rulebook, everything that happens in your 'End of Turn step' is actually AFTER you have completed your turn and the next player is taking their turn. You CANNOT then start using cards / skills, etc.


This is just your opinion. Can you proof it with rulebook?

And looks like you think its complitely normal that according to rules there are 2 end of turns?

I think this is not normal and should be officialy addressed. I will not post it in official FAQ. I just do not need that. May be topic starter will do that. He have the same problem with interpretation.
 
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Ed Bradley
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Tanone wrote:
PaulGrogan wrote:

If you choose to interpret the rules and play like that, it is your choice. I am telling you that this is not correct. If you want the official answer however, please post this question in the official FAQ thread, where I will copy and paste my above responses, so that your question is answered in the official thread.

Whether it is clear or not in the rulebook, everything that happens in your 'End of Turn step' is actually AFTER you have completed your turn and the next player is taking their turn. You CANNOT then start using cards / skills, etc.


This is just your opinion. Can you proof it with rulebook?

And looks like you think its complitely normal that according to rules there are 2 end of turns?

I think this is not normal and should be officialy addressed. I will not post it in official FAQ. I just do not need that. May be topic starter will do that. He have the same problem with interpretation.


If you post it on the official FAQ thread Paul can ask the designer to clarify.

The FAQ exists to address problems with the rulebook so if you ignore it you're not going to get answers to your problems.

The rulebook contains some errors and some omissions (hence the FAQ thread) so asking for to "prove it with the rulebook" is a pretty strange demand.
 
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Paul Grogan
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Tanone wrote:
This is just your opinion. Can you proof it with rulebook?


First of all, please take the time to read the official FAQ thread. You will see on that thread that it has been agreed by both the designer and WizKids that I am the person responsible for maintaining the FAQ. This means that I've been given the responsibility for answering most of the questions that come up. Anything I am not 100% sure about, I ask the designer.

As hopefully you can appreciate, I cannot go to the designer for every little question, so there is an element of trust in me that I'm getting it right. That trust is also shared by the MK community who have accepted that if I give a ruling on something then it can be considered an official response, and it is valid.

I am not saying it is perfect. On one occasion, I did get a ruling wrong once, apologised and we moved on.

However, this is now just getting a bit silly to be honest. If you are not prepared to accept my ruling then that is your choice. I have tried to be polite, I have tried to explain it to you. It is not just 'MY OPINION', it is my official answer.

There are NOT two different End of Turns. If you interpret the rulebook like that and this is what you want to think, then go ahead, but it is not right. I have tried explaining this a couple of different ways now but it hasnt worked.

So, I will try a 3rd way.

When your turn HAS ENDED, you then carry out all the steps under "END OF TURN".
These take place AFTER YOUR TURN IS OVER.
You even do them WHEN ANOTHER PLAYER IS TAKING THEIR TURN.
During these END OF TURN steps, you may not do anything else. You may not play cards, use skills, etc. Because your turn is ALREADY OVER and another player is already doing their turn.

Hope this helps.

The reason I said post it in the official FAQ is so that I could give you the same answer there, and maybe you would believe me in that thread as you may think it was a more official answer


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Maxim Maltsev
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PaulGrogan wrote:

First of all, please take the time to read the official FAQ thread. You will see on that thread that it has been agreed by both the designer and WizKids that I am the person responsible for maintaining the FAQ. This means that I've been given the responsibility for answering most of the questions that come up. Anything I am not 100% sure about, I ask the designer.


First of all how should I know that you official representative? I never visit FAQ thread... Never have any problems with the rules to visit it.
Second. Its not obligatory to visit it. I am not topic starter. I have tried to answer according to published rulebook. I myself do not have any problems with rules.
So about "End of turn".

PaulGrogan wrote:

There are NOT two different End of Turns. If you interpret the rulebook like that and this is what you want to think, then go ahead, but it is not right. I have tried explaining this a couple of different ways now but it hasnt worked.

My interpretation is that you can use skills.
"2 end of turns" is not interpretation. It is fact. Its is written in rules. Very clearly written.

First End of Turn (as written):
Page 5 of Rulebook. "7. Once you have done everything you whanted to do on your turn (Regular turn or Resting), announce that your turn is over".
Very clear.

Second End of Turn:
Page 5 of Rulebook. "c. Finalize your turn while the other player begins theirs. See the End of Turn section."
Word "finalize" means that you must do something to end your turn. After you finished doing that your Turn is finished.
So actually this is last phase of players turn. Its was move over next player turn to speed up the game.

And now is interpretation about skills.

During this phase you receive 3 things:
1. crystals - you could not use them and this is specificaly written in the rules (Page 14 of walkthrough about Crystal mines).
2. skills - nothing written about them.
3. cards - you just do not have time to use them, because after you draw them turn finished immediatly.

So game designer specificaly cover srystals but do not cover skills. This can be interpreted 2 ways:
1) he forgot to do that.
2) he thinks that you can use the skills

And I think you can use them because really level up was delayed till end of turn phase. Real level up happend exactly during your turn. It was moved to speed up game. Everything you collect during your turn you can use immediatly (crystals, cards, units).

Am really sorry that you could not see the problem.
I already told that I do not have any problems with ruling. Thats why its not my bussiness to post that problem in FAQ thread or anywhere.
It was topic starter who have problem. And actually I think he wiil be not the only person because rules not very clear.
If you are really oficial FAQ manager you can do that yourself to help the topic starter. But looks like you just do not what to.
 
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Maxim Maltsev
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Fwing wrote:

If you post it on the official FAQ thread Paul can ask the designer to clarify.

The FAQ exists to address problems with the rulebook so if you ignore it you're not going to get answers to your problems.

The rulebook contains some errors and some omissions (hence the FAQ thread) so asking for to "prove it with the rulebook" is a pretty strange demand.

First. I am not the one who have problem. Why I should search for FAQ thread and post there anything? I myself do not have any problem.

Second. I have shown that in current rules there is unclear situation with End of Turn. This situation happend because game designer tries to speed up game.

Third. The only source for rules interpretations is rulebook as written and oficial FAQ. Everything else is just private opinions. I do not know who is Paul... Why I should trust his private opinions which is not backed up with rulebook or FAQ? I have proofed my opinion with links to rulebook. Paul just used his authority. Thats why I have demanded proof from him.
 
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Paul Grogan
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This is my last post on this thread, I will be unsubscribing from it.

I have no desire to keep repeating myself, or continue what has become an argument.

For anyone else reading this, please ignore Maxim's interpretation. It is incorrect. I have confirmed this with the designer.

See you all on another thread...
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Maxim Maltsev
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PaulGrogan wrote:
This is my last post on this thread, I will be unsubscribing from it.

I have no desire to keep repeating myself, or continue what has become an argument.

For anyone else reading this, please ignore Maxim's interpretation. It is incorrect. I have confirmed this with the designer.

See you all on another thread...


Thank you very much that you confirmed that.
May be its good idea to do that from the very begining?
 
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Alex Martinez
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A thread where a player argues with the official in charge of rules questions? I think we have just crossed over to the dark side, folks. I know we love to over analyze our games here, but this is parody. But can any of us say we're honestly surprised? It was only a matter of time.
 
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Richard Young
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I'm having a similar feeling that I get when I find I'm in that part of You Tube again...
 
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Filip Murmak
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Is the troll really fed up already? Not so hungry after all! ^^
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Jack Smith
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Bubslug wrote:
I'm having a similar feeling that I get when I find I'm in that part of You Tube again...


Some people extrapolate rules to mean more than what they actually say then get into a pickle when they are told they are wrong. It can't be helped with bad rules (or anything from FFG) but MK rules are quite clear.
 
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