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Subject: Medium Eurogamer: The educated middle-class suburbanite? rss

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J J
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I disagree with it all. I've yet to find a human who neatly fits any category you care to devise, and who doesn't spill over into others. That's just not how people are.

Edit - and now that I've more than just skimmed it - "smarter than average", and similar? Really? Isn't this simply edging into a more "acceptable" version of the vilification kerfuffle of a week or two ago?
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Enrico Viglino
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scifiantihero wrote:
I think a lot of what draws people to ameritrash games would be the narrative. So you are going to get a lot of people who like other narratives. Maybe to the point of collecting everything having to do with their favorite one!




Precisely the case for this wargamer.

The narrative just happens to be one more associated
with history. But, I'll play believable, detailed fantasy/sf
quite easily. There's not much of the (suspected by OP)
abstract gamer in me - I even pull story from those (Go).

Euros bug me precisely because of where they fail to
tell the story - I can't intuit what to do.
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Enrico Viglino
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thdizzy wrote:


War gamers love history and value simulation and theory. In order to simulate historical events in games, a high level of complexity in rules is tolerated and sometimes even enjoyed by war gamers. War gamers value games in which they can examine the factors that led to the results of a historical battle or war. They also like to experiment with trying different techniques and adjusting factors to see what might have happened if history went a different way. War gamers can stand losing a game if they come to a better understanding of history through that loss. War gamers tend not to like abstraction. The more abstract a game system is, the less control they have on the variables of their historical experiments.



There's a decent amount of variance in wargamers (as well as other
sub-categories of gaming). Some are very very competitive - others
more interested in the history (whether for study or like me,
just the story). Many have no taste for complexity, and are perfectly
happy with less detail (as it is there, rather than in simulation
value, that complexity arises).
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Simon Blome
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I don't think we have those clear boundaries here on BGG in every case. It's more like a scale or crossover. Neither members nor games are ONLY eurogamers/euros or ONLY wargamers/wargames etc. in most cases. The gamers I know are fairly open to all kinds of games and they give a new game a shot for at least one time.

Your definitions are also very subjective. I don't feel smarter than average , because I can beat friends at chess. It's more a matter of experience and practice rather than intelligence. And abstracts can also tell stories, if you've learnt something about their individual history.
So, in my case: I like abstracts AND medium-heavy euros. What am I? "Abstract minus" or "Euro plus"...?
You see, it's not that clear.

But in your case it's very simple:
You're a clear light-medium eurogamer with aspects of a socialized partygamer and leanings to a heavier subcategory of non-abstract family-friendly games.
Easy!
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Enrico Viglino
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BenOni wrote:
The gamers I know are fairly open to all kinds of games and they give a new game a shot for at least one time.


Hey, up for a quick game of The Campaign for North Africa?
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Simon Blome
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calandale wrote:
BenOni wrote:
The gamers I know are fairly open to all kinds of games and they give a new game a shot for at least one time.


Hey, up for a quick game of The Campaign for North Africa?


60,000 minutes?! Let's calculate... That would be 10,000+ games of chess.
Uhm... I'd prefer to waste my lifetime with the latter.
 
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The Other Tom
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What about the Eurotrasher?

I think I am a hybrid breed.

Also, what category to card games fall into? Abstract?

Or am I a Eurocardtrasher?

I like it...dibs on the coined term...

I welcome all other Eurocardtrashers to thumb this
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Enrico Viglino
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BenOni wrote:
calandale wrote:
BenOni wrote:
The gamers I know are fairly open to all kinds of games and they give a new game a shot for at least one time.


Hey, up for a quick game of The Campaign for North Africa?


60,000 minutes?! Let's calculate... That would be 10,000+ games of chess.
Uhm... I'd prefer to waste my lifetime with the latter. :D


The point was, most gamers actually just ain't into
wargames. Yeah, CNA's a ridiculous case, but there's a
reason Case Blue became something of a rallying
cry for the sub-forum.

It takes an interest in more than just socializing or
strategy to settle into a serious wargame - and that's
probably every bit as much true about short (6-8 hour)
ones as well. People who'd be up for a game of Civ or Pax Britannica,
would run from a comparable length wargame.

One problem hereabouts, is that the games most often
titled with the tag for wargame, really are (at best)
edge cases within the hobby - either ultra-lights, or
highly abstracted games with elements treated more
significantly than the military.

(btw - the 1000 hours is short of the original estimated
time by the mfg: that clocked in at 1600, I believe)
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Jeff Forbes

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A fan of chapels and trading posts are we?

LostRoom wrote:
What about the Eurotrasher?

I think I am a hybrid breed.

Also, what category to card games fall into? Abstract?

Or am I a Eurocardtrasher?

I like it...dibs on the coined term...

I welcome all other Eurocardtrashers to thumb this :D
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Simon Blome
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calandale wrote:
BenOni wrote:
calandale wrote:
BenOni wrote:
The gamers I know are fairly open to all kinds of games and they give a new game a shot for at least one time.


Hey, up for a quick game of The Campaign for North Africa?


60,000 minutes?! Let's calculate... That would be 10,000+ games of chess.
Uhm... I'd prefer to waste my lifetime with the latter.


The point was, most gamers actually just ain't into
wargames. Yeah, CNA's a ridiculous case, but there's a
reason Case Blue became something of a rallying
cry for the sub-forum.

It takes an interest in more than just socializing or
strategy to settle into a serious wargame - and that's
probably every bit as much true about short (6-8 hour)
ones as well. People who'd be up for a game of Civ or Pax Britannica,
would run from a comparable length wargame.


Yeah, I see your point. It's more about passion to go through those games. I have to admit that I wouldn't try/suggest those (for me) overlong games, except a friend would really (I mean REALLY) want to play it.
 
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Enrico Viglino
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BenOni wrote:


Yeah, I see your point. It's more about passion to go through those games.


Perhaps. For me, I think the passion in that case is
for playing longer games. I'm not looking for some deeper
insight, nor is the story all that richer (though certainly
longer). It's more that there's a certain pleasure to settling
down into one of these monsters; well, at least solo - I've
done some opposed, and that's got a touch of it, like any
great task shared with friends, but it can get quite fatiguing
to be with people on that kind of regular basis (kinda like
an RPG).
 
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Michael Hyland

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You have some stereotypes that are probably not descriptive of the people you put into those categories. I think the type of game a person likes may depend more on the culture one grew up in, exposure, past experience, and time one has available to play.

A family gamer for example may value the social interaction and the ability to include other members of the family maybe even more than their own personal enjoyment. It could also be time or liking a lighter game because their job is heavy.

I really don't think ameritrash is geeky or less intellectual. I know a school superintendent who puts on the leather coat and rides a Harley on the weekend. There are a lot more subtle factors in why a person likes the kind of games they do.

It's human nature to try and order the world this way and make sense of it like that but it's usually not accurate.
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Enrico Viglino
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Macrawn wrote:


I really don't think ameritrash is geeky or less intellectual.


I suspect what the OP was expressing by 'geeky' was more
someone akin to the computer gamer - face it, adults seriously playing
games is pretty damned geeky, even if it's chess.

As to less intellectual, again I think the OP is trying to express
something. Maybe in practice it's not the case, but one imagines
an A&A player shouting as his dice fall well, more than a wargamer
or eurogamer (though I've seen both - and it's more annoying defying
expectations).
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Derry Salewski
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. . . give a ship.
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calandale wrote:
Macrawn wrote:


I really don't think ameritrash is geeky or less intellectual.


I suspect what the OP was expressing by 'geeky' was more
someone akin to the computer gamer - face it, adults seriously playing
games is pretty damned geeky, even if it's chess.

As to less intellectual, again I think the OP is trying to express
something. Maybe in practice it's not the case, but one imagines
an A&A player shouting as his dice fall well, more than a wargamer
or eurogamer (though I've seen both - and it's more annoying defying
expectations).


Wheras the eurogamer won't touch the dice because he doesn't understand how risk assessment could possibly be a skill . . .
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Diz Hooper
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calandale wrote:
Macrawn wrote:


I really don't think ameritrash is geeky or less intellectual.


I suspect what the OP was expressing by 'geeky' was more
someone akin to the computer gamer - face it, adults seriously playing
games is pretty damned geeky, even if it's chess.


But computer and video gaming are mainstream now. Perhaps it is Eurogaming that is the geekier pursuit.
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Enrico Viglino
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thdizzy wrote:
calandale wrote:
Macrawn wrote:


I really don't think ameritrash is geeky or less intellectual.


I suspect what the OP was expressing by 'geeky' was more
someone akin to the computer gamer - face it, adults seriously playing
games is pretty damned geeky, even if it's chess.


But computer and video gaming are mainstream now. Perhaps it is Eurogaming that is the geekier pursuit.
\

Sure, but the point is that they are mainstream enough (as D&D was)
that they became the representative of the term - faced this
long ago, when we were a small subset of the adventure gaming
hobby.

I'm not really
certain that being a 'geek' can't be mainstream though; you bite
heads off live chickens, you live with the name.
 
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J J
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calandale wrote:
Macrawn wrote:


I really don't think ameritrash is geeky or less intellectual.


I suspect what the OP was expressing by 'geeky' was more
someone akin to the computer gamer - face it, adults seriously playing
games is pretty damned geeky, even if it's chess.


Only to an American with limited exposure to the rest of the world. A lot of the rest of the world sees no reason to limit games to children (or cartoons to children, for that matter).

Quote:

As to less intellectual, again I think the OP is trying to express
something. Maybe in practice it's not the case, but one imagines
an A&A player shouting as his dice fall well, more than a wargamer
or eurogamer (though I've seen both - and it's more annoying defying
expectations).

[/q]

What the hell's that got to do with "intellectual"?
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Enrico Viglino
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JasonJ0 wrote:
calandale wrote:
Macrawn wrote:


I really don't think ameritrash is geeky or less intellectual.


I suspect what the OP was expressing by 'geeky' was more
someone akin to the computer gamer - face it, adults seriously playing
games is pretty damned geeky, even if it's chess.


Only to an American with limited exposure to the rest of the world. A lot of the rest of the world sees no reason to limit games to children (or cartoons to children, for that matter).

Quote:

As to less intellectual, again I think the OP is trying to express
something. Maybe in practice it's not the case, but one imagines
an A&A player shouting as his dice fall well, more than a wargamer
or eurogamer (though I've seen both - and it's more annoying defying
expectations).



What the hell's that got to do with "intellectual"?


Maybe it's another "only to an american" by displays of
emotion of that nature are not usually seen as so.

Anyhow, regardless of the aptness, I'm trying to translate
where some difficulty existed in the terms - not because of
linguistic issues, but perhaps cultural ones.
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J J
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calandale wrote:
JasonJ0 wrote:
calandale wrote:



As to less intellectual, again I think the OP is trying to express
something. Maybe in practice it's not the case, but one imagines
an A&A player shouting as his dice fall well, more than a wargamer
or eurogamer (though I've seen both - and it's more annoying defying
expectations).



What the hell's that got to do with "intellectual"?


Maybe it's another "only to an american" by displays of
emotion of that nature are not usually seen as so.


Interesting. Okay, so let's go to baseball, which I understand is held in high regard in America throughout society, in part because of the statistical side of it. What is thought then of people who scream and shout in the crowd? Or at the TV?
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Enrico Viglino
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JasonJ0 wrote:
calandale wrote:
JasonJ0 wrote:
calandale wrote:



As to less intellectual, again I think the OP is trying to express
something. Maybe in practice it's not the case, but one imagines
an A&A player shouting as his dice fall well, more than a wargamer
or eurogamer (though I've seen both - and it's more annoying defying
expectations).



What the hell's that got to do with "intellectual"?


Maybe it's another "only to an american" by displays of
emotion of that nature are not usually seen as so.


Interesting. Okay, so let's go to baseball, which I understand is held in high regard in America throughout society, in part because of the statistical side of it. What is thought then of people who scream and shout in the crowd? Or at the TV?


Yeah, that's precisely what I mean. Cheering sports is
viewed as uncouth and certainly not intellectual.

Then again, Americans are largely ANTI-intellectual in bent.
This is why our politicians have to appear rather unrefined
to be electable. Anti-intellectual however should not be
confused with stupid - Bill Clinton is an outstanding example:
lexical analysis of his speech patterns showed him to likely be
the most intelligent US President in modern times, yet he
portrayed himself as 'Bubba'.

This whole discussion is likely flirting with getting
moderated away, but I assure you that I mean no ill -
this is just something of a sociological reality here.
Intellectuals are viewed largely with distrust.
 
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J J
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calandale wrote:
JasonJ0 wrote:

Interesting. Okay, so let's go to baseball, which I understand is held in high regard in America throughout society, in part because of the statistical side of it. What is thought then of people who scream and shout in the crowd? Or at the TV?


Yeah, that's precisely what I mean. Cheering sports is
viewed as uncouth and certainly not intellectual.

Then again, Americans are largely ANTI-intellectual in bent.
This is why our politicians have to appear rather unrefined
to be electable. Anti-intellectual however should not be
confused with stupid - Bill Clinton is an outstanding example:
lexical analysis of his speech patterns showed him to likely be
the most intelligent US President in modern times, yet he
portrayed himself as 'Bubba'.

This whole discussion is likely flirting with getting
moderated away, but I assure you that I mean no ill -
this is just something of a sociological reality here.
Intellectuals are viewed largely with distrust.


Fascinating - care to take it to RSP? Coz although it makes a certain amount of sense, it's not really how we see it from the outside (well, Clinton was, but your last paragraph isn't).
 
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Enrico Viglino
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JasonJ0 wrote:


Fascinating - care to take it to RSP? Coz although it makes a certain amount of sense, it's not really how we see it from the outside (well, Clinton was, but your last paragraph isn't).


Cheers: http://www.boardgamegeek.com/article/8546345#8546345

I don't know how much I'll participate, as I'm sure there
are others with a better grip of the subject.
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Michael Hyland

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People riot, overturn and burn cars after big sports games all around the world. That seems to be something we all have in common unfortunately.



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Carl Garber
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Wow! a guy gets busy for a coupla days and and comes back to a thread and conversation has gone all over the place!! That's a good thing I think

I think one thing needs to be clarafied....I actually never said ameritrashers are not intellectual, I just think that geekiness is a more common common denominator is all. Despite some argumentation I still think most (all?) ameritrashers are geeky, even if they happen to be cool geeks. The subject matter alone of ameritrash games leads me to believe this. Last I checked being a geek doesn't make one intellectual or not, it just makes one a geek.

Some people think that I am trying to pigeonhole people, which I am not. I understand that people fall into more than one category. I think the problem is I combined to many thoughts into one thread. One thought was concerned with the marketability of games. I just happen to think that light-medium euro's alongside party games are targetted at the average joe. My argument was basically that abstracts/wargames/heavy euro's are too intellectually rigorous for the average joe and ameritrash is too geeky(and possibly to rigorous depending on the game).

My other thought was that I personally fall into the average joe category that isn't looking to play games with my kids, or to play party games. I am mainly looking to play games with other adults that are moderately challenging and playable in a normal social get together. I call myself and those like me EMCSers. I look at my group of friends (who I identify as EMCSers) and I see mainly EMCSers. I think this is a target group for many publishers but I wonder if this group is as common here on BGG. I know I was a lurker here for many years and it's only because I'm somewhat geeky myself (and OCD) that I plunged deeper into this hobby. The main motivation for my post (besides floating out my random and loose thoughts on the various types of gamers) was that BGG doesn't have a "list" for this segment of people, which I found odd because I think many of us BGGers look for games to play in this range because of our EMCSer friends. Some people play games with other gamers, but I think many of us mainly play with EMCSers and look for medium euro games (or ameritrash games that aren't too geeky and alienating).

This thread has been fun because it has allowed me to learn alot more about this hobby of mine even if most people didn't respond to my main questions. I especially enjoyed people's descriptions of ameritrashers and wargamers as I am least familiar with those subgroups of this hobby. Always fun to walk away from a thread with more knowledge than when I entered! Keep up the interesting convo and I'll throw my two cents in if I have something to contribute!

Happy Gaming!!

PS- I also learned from this thread to be more careful how I word things if I want more focussed answers! It seems many people got sidetracked with my descriptions of the different type of gamers and mistook some to be derogatory.

 
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Mad Asgardian
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CarlG wrote:
My other thought was that I personally fall into the average joe category that isn't looking to play games with my kids, or to play party games. I am mainly looking to play games with other adults that are moderately challenging and playable in a normal social get together.

I think these sorts of threads are ultimately about as fruitful as attempting to pin down the true meaning of art... everyone comes at the question from their own narrow set of experiences.

You enjoy light euro games, so they're "normal" for you. But the real "average Joe" largely sees board gaming as a pastime to outgrow -- beyond the occasional party game or Parker Brothers nostalgia trip -- for more "adult" pursuits like darts, bowling, pool, poker, horseshoes, Pass the Ace, Solitaire or Words with Friends (if they game at all).
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