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Blood Bowl: Team Manager – The Card Game» Forums » Rules

Subject: FAQ is out rss

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Jaime Lawrence
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boxjuggler wrote:
Mr Skeletor wrote:
Ronaldo wrote:
Mr Skeletor wrote:
I think it's a stupid change for the FAQ.


I really appreciate when they work to make the game better and this is clearly the intention here. I thought they should have done the same with Elder Sign. That was a tremendous wasted opportunity and that game remains weak.


The game was perfectly playable yesterday. I never had the impression that most people had a problem with these cards.
The better fix - if one was needed - was to simply not allow you to play duplicates.
Otherwise this was a totally un-needed change that makes a very solid and highly rated game look broken out of the box.


100% agree. I can see the argument for duplicate cards, but then again I love the random elements of the game so I'm not too fussed about that either.

Whilst fishing for the staff upgrade cards like staffing office can often be a good tactic in the first round or two, the other players know you have these cards and can easily deny you access to the highlights you need to fulfill them.


I think this may be the heart of the discussion. I love the random element in the game. It's what makes the game actually feel like Bloodbowl, which is tremendous fun for its wacky, random events.

If you don't like that, I guess you could play Chess or Pandemic or something like that, or remove the fun cards from the deck. That's not my preference and I've won plenty of games against people who were chasing the upgrades by playing for a good mix of cards.

The game isn't broken, it just has a great random element and that's not everyone's cup of tea.
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Michael D. Kelley
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Had to add a thought, now that I am home and looking at the staff upgrade deck.

I am fully in favor of removing both "staffing office" cards. Staff upgrades were already powerful, and to reward the people already spamming them seemed silly.

"Hall of Famers" is also a little silly. In my games, pretty much every deck has gotten at least 3 of their team upgrades out, so that's 6 points or more on a lucky card draw... too much.

I guess "we'll get em next season" and "Talent Scout" could do the same thing, but generally I don't see a ton of either type of card getting drafted, and these can lead to some interesting strategy as you fight more for star player draw spots.

"Fan Club Enrollment" kind of puzzles me. Why remove it? First of all, I don't think I ever go out of my way to choose it, except maybe with Reikland. How often are you going to get 4 non-freebooters on your team? I don't think I've achieved that yet, except once with Reikland when both their draw +1 star player and their all star players treated like freebooters abilities came out early.

It seems much more sensible to remove "Team Merchandise Booths" than "fan club enrollment". Booths get you 4 fans for nothing, while fan club gets you 5 for a heck of a lot of effort and luck.

I'll probably try the game with both removed, but still, seems like an odd choice.
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GameMasterX0 wrote:

"Hall of Famers" is also a little silly. In my games, pretty much every deck has gotten at least 3 of their team upgrades out, so that's 6 points or more on a lucky card draw... too much.


You know, there have been a few games (when I played Dwarves) where my Team Upgrades were mostly useless, even when I had all 5.

What if there was a house rule which declared you could only get a maximum of 6 points from a Staff Upgrade card? This could be combined with the one type of Staff Upgrade card house rule.
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Michael D. Kelley
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Quote:
What if there was a house rule which declared you could only get a maximum of 6 points from a Staff Upgrade card? This could be combined with the one type of Staff Upgrade card house rule.


My problem with even 6 points from a single card (and the reason I agree with the FAQ's decision to remove cards) is that it can lead to lucky last minute wins, and it can detract from what I believe should be the real focus of the game, namely match-ups and team card play.

If I get a Star Player reward, it makes my deck tougher and stronger, but I still need to play those players to leverage their usefulness.
If I get a team upgrade, except for the Reaver's star player reward one, I need to use its ability to gain an advantage, or set up the situation that rewards me (injuring players with orks, holding the ball with elves).
If I get a staff upgrade that does not instantly reward a lot of points, like passing coach, I need to use its ability in matchups to translate into points.
And sure, winning a big tournament or fan highlight can get me up to 5 fans above anyone else. But at least my opponents see those fans on the card, and can contest me accordingly.

But if I get a staff upgrade in the fourth or fifth turn, that suddenly nets me even only 6 points (more than the fans from the biggest highlight), but that was a totally lucky draw, which no one could predict, it just seems to be against the spirit of the game.

Just my 2 cents. I think anything worth more than 5 instant fans (for winning the blood bowl over other participants, for example) is silly randomness that could easily scare players away from the game.
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GameMasterX0 wrote:

But if I get a staff upgrade in the fourth or fifth turn, that suddenly nets me even only 6 points (more than the fans from the biggest highlight), but that was a totally lucky draw, which no one could predict, it just seems to be against the spirit of the game.


I don't know about that, this is a game where cheating tokens and bad dice rolls can really screw a player over. Is rolling double X's on a critical tackle roll more predictable than drawing a strong Staff Upgrade card?

Don't get me wrong, I agree that some of the Staff Upgrade cards are too powerful and they can be awfully swingy, but the strong Staff Upgrade cards reward pursuing non-Fans. Removing the Staff Upgrades might reward a "Fans first" strategy too much... maybe that's a good thing for new players, so they're not shocked by the power of a non-Fans based strategy. However, a lot of the Staff and Team Upgrades are pretty weak, and if you remove the strong Staff cards, it significantly reduces the value of "draw 2, keep 1" and "draw 3, keep 1" rewards.

Besides, allowing a player to get lucky with a good Staff Upgrade draw is kind of fun - it keeps everyone invested in the game, since there's the chance you might just get the card you need... too much luck is a bad thing, but the same is true with too little.

If desired, you could possibly cap the Staff Upgrades at 4 or 5 points, and if you want to cap it at 4, you could remove the Staff Upgrade card that gives you 5 if you have 4 non-Freebooter Star Players (just for elegance's sake.)
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Michael Denman
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The best thing about removing those cards is that those are all of the ones that reward "hidden" points. Now you can always know where you stand. You can keep an ACTUAL fan score as you go and when the game ends you won't have somebody suddenly pulling a dozen points out of nowhere.
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Trump wrote:
The best thing about removing those cards is that those are all of the ones that reward "hidden" points. Now you can always know where you stand. You can keep an ACTUAL fan score as you go and when the game ends you won't have somebody suddenly pulling a dozen points out of nowhere.


Yes, but isn't that kind of against the whole point of playing a BloodBowl game? This isn't a game for people who like to plan out everything, it is a game for people who like to try and keep up with the sudden changes that the game throws at you.
 
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Ghorro wrote:
I applaud FFG for making a change to the game to fix problems, and yes, these cards were a problem. The absence of the problem occurring in your games doesn't mean there isn't a problem.



Yet the presence of a problem in your games means that their is a problem?
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Darian Tucker
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willythesnitch wrote:
Trump wrote:
The best thing about removing those cards is that those are all of the ones that reward "hidden" points. Now you can always know where you stand. You can keep an ACTUAL fan score as you go and when the game ends you won't have somebody suddenly pulling a dozen points out of nowhere.


Yes, but isn't that kind of against the whole point of playing a BloodBowl game? This isn't a game for people who like to plan out everything, it is a game for people who like to try and keep up with the sudden changes that the game throws at you.


Not quite. Pretty much everything you CAN do in the game is known. The only thing you don't know is whether or not the D6 result of the action you are attempting will pass or fail, although you can mitigate that quite heavily by having players that are good at certain things do only those things. You can generally tell whether or not going for a particular action is worth it now, or should be saved because it's too risky at the current point.

In contrast, the staff upgrades are a bit out of hand. Some of them are fairly useless and others are insanely overpowered in comparison. The problem is that the game can literally come down to this one deck. You can be ahead by 10 fans, but if your opponent gets one lucky draw, he could still win. Sure, it's mechanically similar to a die roll if you're good at counting cards and have already seen what people have acquired, but it's just terribly anticlimactic.

As an example, think of the following situation. It's tied at 2-2 and the person across from you is on his 8th turn of the second half. He can score a TD, but doing so will require some creative blocking in order to push one of his players into the position so it will have enough MA left to score the TD. This tense situation is awesome; even if you lose because the opponent gets lucky with the ridiculous number of die rolls needed to set this up, you can at least congratulate him for brilliant tactics and an excellent play.

Blood Bowl: Team Manager sort of simulates this feeling by the player cards themselves. If you're going first in a game round, you don't know what your opponent has left after you play your last player. Maybe it's a useless lineman, maybe it's Deeproot Strongbranch and he'll JUST edge you out with star power in the Blood Bowl to win and beat your fan total. The tension is still there and makes every card play significant. This is where the fun in the game lies.

By contrast, drawing a particular team upgrade that gives you a 6+ fan upswing just feels terribly anticlimactic. It doesn't have the same weight behind it because you could be beating the other person all game, but he manages to pull something out of his ass to seal the victory. The feeling is like leading 2-0 all game, then your opponent scores a TD but because the series of rolls he made to score that TD pleased Nuffle, Nuffle decided to count it as 3 scores so he wins. It's just not the same feeling. It removes much of the point of going for anything but staff upgrades in the game because a small proportion of them ARE so overpowered, and just not pursuing that strategy wouldn't work because it's effective enough to basically always win. This is why the change needed to be made.
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willythesnitch wrote:
Trump wrote:
The best thing about removing those cards is that those are all of the ones that reward "hidden" points. Now you can always know where you stand. You can keep an ACTUAL fan score as you go and when the game ends you won't have somebody suddenly pulling a dozen points out of nowhere.


Yes, but isn't that kind of against the whole point of playing a BloodBowl game? This isn't a game for people who like to plan out everything, it is a game for people who like to try and keep up with the sudden changes that the game throws at you.


I agree with you. I think maybe you're reading more into what I said than I intended. Yes, now we CAN know exact scores as we go along, but we can't know exactly how the highlights will play out. I don't know which player cards you have in your hand and you don't know mine. We don't know how the tackling dice will roll or which cheating tokens we've drawn. Isn't it MORE interesting to go into the highlights KNOWING that you can win if you can just win two of them, yet not knowing if you'll be able to pull it off until that last cheating token is flipped up? I certainly wouldn't want perfect information in my Blood Bowl game, but I think having a reasonable idea of the range of points available as you go into each round can only be a good thing.
 
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Nate Owens
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It's a dumb change, not because of the changes it creates, but because it's essentially surgery with dynamite. How on earth did five cards make it this far in playtesting? It feels a lot like a sop to people who felt they were too powerful. Not to say they weren't, but I suspect that it wasn't considered a big enough deal in playtesting.

I'll probably just leave everything in there. I have played about 8-10 times, and there has never once been a complaint about the end game points. The presence of the FAQ shouldn't change that.
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Grzegorz Szymanski
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I've played the game something like 20 times and always the winner had one or more of the cards mentioned by the FAQ so I'm pleased by the change. In my opinion that change will make it more important to actually win matchups as they will be the main source of fans.
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San Il Defanso wrote:

I have played about 8-10 times, and there has never once been a complaint about the end game points.


On the other hand, the first time one of my friends played, he complained about the dominance of the Staff Upgrade cards. After repeat plays, I began to notice how swingy the Staff Upgrade cards can be.

I think I'm going to cap them at a maximum of 6 points, so you can get an extra couple points if you have lots of Star Players / Team Upgrades / Staff Upgrades, since there's one Upgrade which just straight up gives you 4 points for doing nothing. (Which, as another posted observed, was not removed from the Staff Upgrade deck.)
 
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Jaime Lawrence
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I still maintain that the random element from the Staffing upgrades is perfectly in line with the theme of Bloodbowl and makes the game more interesting; no-one wants to see the player who was leading throughout the game actually win!
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Hida Mann wrote:
no-one wants to see the player who was leading throughout the game actually win!

That doesn't really match my experience with the computer implementation of the board game though. The one leading throughout the game often is the one who wins in the end, and the one who has the better team and more experience has a better chance of being that leading player...
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Jaime Lawrence
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The board game rewards the losing player in ways that the video game doesn't and has a number of other random elements which affect the game. Turn arounds are not uncommon.
 
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Hida Mann wrote:
The board game rewards the losing player in ways that the video game doesn't and has a number of other random elements which affect the game. Turn arounds are not uncommon.

That's odd, considering that the video game is a full implementation of the 5th edition of the living rules Are you talking about some of the optional rules like the dirty tricks deck? There are a few of those in the video game, too (like inducements), but not all of them.
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Jaime Lawrence
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Maybe the game has been sanitised? I used to play 3rd/4th and there were a number of random events on kick-off, different pitch conditions... and scoring the first touch-down didn't mean winning - often it meant getting the snot kicked out of your players! There's also bonus cash and XP for disadvantaged teams in the original, which translates to upgrades etc for the player who places first, I suppose...
 
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Guido Gloor
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There's stuff like that still, too, both bonus cash for the lower-value team (that can be used for "free" replacement players or even star players) and kick-off events. I can't really compare because I don't know the earlier versions as good though. It's still the case that if you touch down too early you give the advantage to the opponent because you have to kick off, that's a matter of timing and sometimes delaying the touchdown by a turn or two (if you can) is necessary for improving your chances of winning. All that is rather skill-based though - if only the skill to know when you shoudln't just touch down yet
 
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Jaime Lawrence
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My experience of the game is clearly more chaotic than yours A good pitch invasion sorts out a winning team in no time.
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Hida Mann wrote:
My experience of the game is clearly more chaotic than yours A good pitch invasion sorts out a winning team in no time.


Again, not left out of the video game in any way.
 
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Really? I've not seen one yet!
 
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Hida Mann wrote:
Really? I've not seen one yet!

It only has a chance of 1/36 because it only occurs on a 12 on 2d6, but I've seen it happen, yeah.
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Hi Guys,

Just to state the obvious: BB Team Manager isnt Blood Bowl, not the boardgame or the pc game from Cyanide. It is however a fun reimplementation of playing a lot of matches and nursing a team through the season, and trying to get the most fans. Heck, you dont even win Team Manager by winning matches, but by getting fans(!).

That said, however fun the random elements of drawing staff upgrades are, it is our experience that the players who draws one (or more) of the contested staff upgrades mentioned above, are ususally the players winning. I have tried several times to win through other measures, but I have so far always lost with a margin between 5 and 20 fans, to the guys with the staff upgrades.

The question is if you like the game with the upgrades or would prefer it without them?

Cheerio,
ST
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SovTech wrote:
Just to state the obvious: BB Team Manager isnt Blood Bowl, not the boardgame or the pc game from Cyanide. It is however a fun reimplementation of playing a lot of matches and nursing a team through the season, and trying to get the most fans. Heck, you dont even win Team Manager by winning matches, but by getting fans(!).

It does attempt to capture the feeling and thematic background of Blood Bowl though, and the question was whether it does that by being very chaotic or whether it does that better by being slightly less chaotic Thus our friendly conversation about Blood Bowl rules.
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