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Subject: So "Obamacare" is gov't coercion but vaginal probes aren't? rss

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Somewhat facetiously, I'll suggest McDonnell asked for the trans-vaginal part to be removed from the bill because of the rider provision attached to the bill.

http://www.blogrunner.com/snapshot/D/6/3/janet_howell_virgin...

Of course, this whole thing isn't completely over until it makes it way through the VA senate.

 
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Quote:
mag74b wrote:
Shushnik wrote:
The idea that a vaginal ultrasound requirement before abortion is the same as "rape" is ridiculous.

It is just as ridiculous as calling abortion murder, so it fits right into this hyperbole filled abortiion discussion

Quote:
Maybe we shouldn't jump the shark by comparing republicans to rapists when that language isn't specifically present as many misinterpret here.

I whole heartedkly agree, and while we are at it, let's stop comparing pro-abortionists to murderers.


I didn't see anyone calling abortion murder in this "hyperbole filled discussion". All the hyperbole is coming from pro abortionists here.
 
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Chad Ellis
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I always want to meet a pro-abortionist. I've seen a few on the Internet (radical overpopulation folks) but never in real life. And yet pro-life people seem to see them everywhere...
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Chad_Ellis wrote:
I always want to meet a pro-abortionist. I've seen a few on the Internet (radical overpopulation folks) but never in real life. And yet pro-life people seem to see them everywhere...


Only when they describe themselves as such, as you'd see if you'd take the time to actually read before knee-jerking.
 
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Shushnik wrote:
Chad_Ellis wrote:
I always want to meet a pro-abortionist. I've seen a few on the Internet (radical overpopulation folks) but never in real life. And yet pro-life people seem to see them everywhere...


Only when they describe themselves as such, as you'd see if you'd take the time to actually read before knee-jerking.


I think this is a small percentage of people who call themselves pro-choice, just as I think the number of people who think the VA bill was a good idea is a small percentage of pro-lifers. At least I'd like to think so. All my hyperpole aside about the GOP in general excepting the VA legislators actually supporting the bill.
 
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she2 wrote:
Shushnik wrote:
Chad_Ellis wrote:
I always want to meet a pro-abortionist. I've seen a few on the Internet (radical overpopulation folks) but never in real life. And yet pro-life people seem to see them everywhere...


Only when they describe themselves as such, as you'd see if you'd take the time to actually read before knee-jerking.


I think this is a small percentage of people who call themselves pro-choice, just as I think the number of people who think the VA bill was a good idea is a small percentage of pro-lifers. At least I'd like to think so. All my hyperpole aside about the GOP in general excepting the VA legislators actually supporting the bill.


If someone calls themselves pro abortion, I'll call them pro abortion. What the fuck is with reading comprehension skills today?
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Shushnik wrote:
she2 wrote:
Shushnik wrote:
Chad_Ellis wrote:
I always want to meet a pro-abortionist. I've seen a few on the Internet (radical overpopulation folks) but never in real life. And yet pro-life people seem to see them everywhere...


Only when they describe themselves as such, as you'd see if you'd take the time to actually read before knee-jerking.


I think this is a small percentage of people who call themselves pro-choice, just as I think the number of people who think the VA bill was a good idea is a small percentage of pro-lifers. At least I'd like to think so. All my hyperpole aside about the GOP in general excepting the VA legislators actually supporting the bill.


If someone calls themselves pro abortion, I'll call them pro abortion. What the fuck is with reading comprehension skills today?


Okey dokey then. You said "All the hyperbole is coming from pro abortionists here". Apparently insinuating that several people here are pro-abortionists. I wasn't aware of anyone in this thread that identified themselves as "pro-abortionists". I guess my reading comprehension skills are lacking.
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she2 wrote:
Shushnik wrote:
she2 wrote:
Shushnik wrote:
Chad_Ellis wrote:
I always want to meet a pro-abortionist. I've seen a few on the Internet (radical overpopulation folks) but never in real life. And yet pro-life people seem to see them everywhere...


Only when they describe themselves as such, as you'd see if you'd take the time to actually read before knee-jerking.


I think this is a small percentage of people who call themselves pro-choice, just as I think the number of people who think the VA bill was a good idea is a small percentage of pro-lifers. At least I'd like to think so. All my hyperpole aside about the GOP in general excepting the VA legislators actually supporting the bill.


If someone calls themselves pro abortion, I'll call them pro abortion. What the fuck is with reading comprehension skills today?


Okey dokey then. You said "All the hyperbole is coming from pro abortionists here". Apparently insinuating that several people here are pro-abortionists. I wasn't aware of anyone in this thread that identified themselves as "pro-abortionists". I guess my reading comprehension skills are lacking.

I have explained in other threads that I hate the American words pro-choice and pro-life, since I do not really kniow anybody who is anti-choice nor do i know anybody who is anti-life.

I like to call things what they are, which is pro- or anti abortion, and I will do this in these discussions here, It may not be a completely accurate wording, but it is a lot more accurate then the American wording.
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Shushnik wrote:
Quote:
mag74b wrote:
Shushnik wrote:
The idea that a vaginal ultrasound requirement before abortion is the same as "rape" is ridiculous.

It is just as ridiculous as calling abortion murder, so it fits right into this hyperbole filled abortiion discussion

Quote:
Maybe we shouldn't jump the shark by comparing republicans to rapists when that language isn't specifically present as many misinterpret here.

I whole heartedkly agree, and while we are at it, let's stop comparing pro-abortionists to murderers.


I didn't see anyone calling abortion murder in this "hyperbole filled discussion". All the hyperbole is coming from pro abortionists here.

I consider every separate threat about one subject to be part of the same discussion.
 
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Meerkat wrote:


There are other medical procedures that have mandatory penetration even if you can't really justify it, attached.

For example I have never been allowed to get birth control pill prescriptions without an annual exam and Pap smear. Even when I was a virgin and wanted them for cramp control not birth control I HAD to undergo an exam with a speculum and they carefully maneuvered a long Q-tip though the Hyman gap to get a pap smear. Not a fun experience people. And the connection between Pap Smear and birth control pills is tenuous. Using prescription birth control access to force women to do what is "good for them" in the general medical professions view is a reach at best. There are real risks to birth control pills but stroke and blood clots are much higher on the list than cancer acceleration even in older clients.

The odds that a teen or 20 something has cervical cancer and therefore needs to be checked before giving them hormones that might accelerate the growth of said cancer are so slim... well... again it is a stretch to leverage PENETRATING exams on that basis. But they do and nobody yells that Planned Parenthood hates women over it.

And it certainly isn't RAPE. I wanted birth control pills. I got the full exam. And I owned my decision rather than griped about it.



I've been working all day and missed most of this discussion. And it all seems to be moot since the governor took out the trans-vaginal examination.

In any case, I know I never characterized the exam as rape, although I think a rape victim would find it an extreme violation. Good friends of mine found exams after the rape very difficult. Characterizing these concerns as "griping" seems kind of harsh.

Also, I think your analogy to getting a pelvic exam to get birth control pills is very off-base. While your physician may have required one, it's optional in many cases (e.g., where federal funding like Medicaid isn't implicated, women's medical history is clear, the personal judgment of the physician indicates otherwise). Also many women have pelvic exams for the simple reason that, as painful as they can sometimes be, they are a smart idea.

Beyond that, pelvic exams to get birth control are still voluntary. There are alternative forms of birth control that don't require pelvic exams. The last time I looked, there's no alternative procedure to abortion other than carrying the child to term.

And there is an alternative to a trans-vaginal ultrasound. It's called a regular ultrasound. There's no excuse for this kind of law.



One thing to add is that, with things that aren't legally mandated, if your doctor won't do what you want just... get a new doctor (within the limits of health insurance, which I know can sometimes be very restricting). I was unhappy with my OBGYN (actually I was unhappy with them for NOT doing a yearly exam when I asked for it, getting handed a pamphlet and a prescription and shuffled out the door as soon as possible, by a nurse of course never got to see my very elusive doctor...) So I went to a 'natural care' clinic that still practices normal, modern medicine mostly... and I've loved them, because I always get to actually see my physician instead of getting shuffled around between nurses...

So, there are options, when the GOP isn't trying to legally require you to undergo invasive procedures.

My two cents... no matter what you think about abortion, these kinds of laws are wrong:
--The Supreme Court said you cannot outlaw abortion, so they try to get around this and make it so difficult it might as well be illegal, similar to adding poll taxes, grandfather rules, etc to deny African Americans the right to vote after it was allowed
--The cost of these medical procedures falls on the patient--patients who are rarely just brimming with money they'd like to give away
--In most states, especially 'red' states, abortion doctors are VERY RARE. Virginia has 11 listed abortion clinics for 8 million people. Often these clinics have limited hours, share doctors, etc etc. And a lot of these laws requiring ultrasounds require you to wait 24 hours. What if you live a four hour drive from the nearest clinic? You have to take Monday off, costing you $50-100 in wages, drive to the clinic, costing you who knows how much in gas, drive back or get a hotel, and then take the NEXT day off as well. In ADDITION to paying for the ultrasound and the procedure. Can you afford that? I can't.

The goal with bills like this is not to make women feel bad about their babies--it's to make it so economically punishing that young women who can't afford the cost of an abortion NOW will just have to deal and figure out how to pay for a child later. Punishing people for exercising legally protected rights is and should be illegal.
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mag74b wrote:
I like to call things what they are, which is pro- or anti abortion, and I will do this in these discussions here, It may not be a completely accurate wording, but it is a lot more accurate then the American wording.


Except that it isn't. Pro-choice is shorthand for something like "pro pregnant women having the legal choice over whether or not to have an abortion". People who are pro choice are just that -- they support the right to choose.

I'm not pro-adultery. In fact, I'm anti-adultery. But I would oppose a law that criminalized adultery. There are a lot of things that I'm either neutral towards or actually opposed to that I still think are none of my or the state's business and should be up to individuals to decide for themselves. For all those things, I'm not pro X but I'm pro choice(X).

I'm neutral wrt abortion. My wife is anti-abortion. We're both pro choice wrt abortion.

If you want to say "pro abortion rights" and anti abortion rights" then that would be accurate...but it gets tiring to say or type over and over.
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Shushnik wrote:
she2 wrote:
Shushnik wrote:
Chad_Ellis wrote:
I always want to meet a pro-abortionist. I've seen a few on the Internet (radical overpopulation folks) but never in real life. And yet pro-life people seem to see them everywhere...


Only when they describe themselves as such, as you'd see if you'd take the time to actually read before knee-jerking.


I think this is a small percentage of people who call themselves pro-choice, just as I think the number of people who think the VA bill was a good idea is a small percentage of pro-lifers. At least I'd like to think so. All my hyperpole aside about the GOP in general excepting the VA legislators actually supporting the bill.


If someone calls themselves pro abortion, I'll call them pro abortion. What the fuck is with reading comprehension skills today?


Gosh, I'm not sure. As far as I can tell, only one other person in this used the term pro-abortion and I'm not even sure if he is pro abortion; he just prefers those terms for both sides. Then you said that all the hyperbole was coming from pro abortionists, which due to my low reading skills I took to be the plural form of the word. From there I drew the totally unreasonable conclusion that you were a) talking about multiple people and b) that you were applying the term to the people whose wording you'd previously criticized as hyperbolic.

Fortunately I have daughters who are five and seven, so as they're doing their homework over the coming years I may be able to improve my learning skills. Then maybe I won't make the mistake of thinking that an s on the end of a word denotes more than one or that "all the X comes from Y" means that the person is indicating that all the X comes from Y.

As an aside, I wasn't even attacking you. I was making a general comment about how the term "pro-abortionist" gets used fairly often (almost always by people who are pro-life) and yet in all my years I've never actually met someone who is pro abortion. The "knee jerk reaction without even reading" was yours, and it seems that the poor reading comprehension was too.
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What got decided? Are pap smears rape? Or not? Are all republicans still woman haters? Is pro abortion any less descriptive than anti environment? Did someone in this thread actually say that the government ought to spend money educating kids about what its really like if you become a teen parent? Hello!!! It's not the 60's man... "the government" has been doing this for 30 years. I'm still trying to figure out how canine facial lacerations and being anti adultery fits in. Can you actually be anti adultery without being an evil, horrible, Satan-fearing, intolerant republican? I thought the common tribal divisions are that liberals like to fuck but unfortunately most of their women look like canines about to lacerate someone's face so in order to get some nice looking ass they have to cheat, cross the hyperbole latitudes, and score some of that sweet conservative trim.

I think that about sums it up.
 
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Sure, everybody's a special fucking snowflake. This board makes me want to puke nowadays.
 
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Shushnik wrote:
Sure, everybody's a special fucking snowflake. This board makes me want to puke nowadays.


While we're all reeling from the guilt of disappointing you, I think we'll soldier on somehow.
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Shushnik wrote:
Sure, everybody's a special fucking snowflake. This board makes me want to puke nowadays.


If it makes you feel any better, I found this post to be thoroughly undeserving of a participation trophy!
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Chad_Ellis wrote:
I agree that it's an exaggerating to call this rape, but I don't think the similarities should be utterly dismissed. If the government says that in order to do X I must do Y, it isn't forcing me to do Y.


Indeed. For instance, if they passed a law saying women couldn't drive unless they allowed any men they encountered to have sex with them, that wouldn't be rape. After all, nobody is forcing the women to drive.
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BagelManB wrote:
Chad_Ellis wrote:
I agree that it's an exaggerating to call this rape, but I don't think the similarities should be utterly dismissed. If the government says that in order to do X I must do Y, it isn't forcing me to do Y.


Indeed. For instance, if they passed a law saying women couldn't drive unless they allowed any men they encountered to have sex with them, that wouldn't be rape. After all, nobody is forcing the women to drive.

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BagelManB wrote:

Indeed. For instance, if they passed a law saying women couldn't drive unless they allowed any men they encountered to have sex with them, that wouldn't be rape. After all, nobody is forcing the women to drive.


Okay, if I weren't feeling overly civil lately I'd point out that any law removing incentives for women to drive would be well received by a large number of non-women drivers.
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BagelManB wrote:
Chad_Ellis wrote:
I agree that it's an exaggerating to call this rape, but I don't think the similarities should be utterly dismissed. If the government says that in order to do X I must do Y, it isn't forcing me to do Y.


Indeed. For instance, if they passed a law saying women couldn't drive unless they allowed any men they encountered to have sex with them, that wouldn't be rape. After all, nobody is forcing the women to drive.


Way to take something out of context. *clap* *clap*
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Chad_Ellis wrote:
BagelManB wrote:
Chad_Ellis wrote:
I agree that it's an exaggerating to call this rape, but I don't think the similarities should be utterly dismissed. If the government says that in order to do X I must do Y, it isn't forcing me to do Y.


Indeed. For instance, if they passed a law saying women couldn't drive unless they allowed any men they encountered to have sex with them, that wouldn't be rape. After all, nobody is forcing the women to drive.


Way to take something out of context. *clap* *clap*


You said "If the government says that in order to do X I must do Y, it isn't forcing me to do Y."

You used X and Y specifically to indicate that the statement applied no matter what you substituted in there.

Why can't I substitute "drive a car" for "X" and "have sex with someone" for "Y"?
 
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BagelManB wrote:
Chad_Ellis wrote:
BagelManB wrote:
Chad_Ellis wrote:
I agree that it's an exaggerating to call this rape, but I don't think the similarities should be utterly dismissed. If the government says that in order to do X I must do Y, it isn't forcing me to do Y.


Indeed. For instance, if they passed a law saying women couldn't drive unless they allowed any men they encountered to have sex with them, that wouldn't be rape. After all, nobody is forcing the women to drive.


Way to take something out of context. *clap* *clap*


You said "If the government says that in order to do X I must do Y, it isn't forcing me to do Y."

You used X and Y specifically to indicate that the statement applied no matter what you substituted in there.

Why can't I substitute "drive a car" for "X" and "have sex with someone" for "Y"?


You can. My point about context was that by taking only the part you quoted and then adding your reply you imply that I'm saying it's OK. The post in its entirety is saying that while it's not strictly rape it's still a serious problem and that the person I was talking to shouldn't be surprised that others consider it very close to rape and deeply threatening.
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Chad_Ellis wrote:

You can. My point about context was that by taking only the part you quoted and then adding your reply you imply that I'm saying it's OK. The post in its entirety is saying that while it's not strictly rape it's still a serious problem and that the person I was talking to shouldn't be surprised that others consider it very close to rape and deeply threatening.


Since your logic that leads you to the conclusion that "it's not strictly rape" would also lead to the conclusion that requiring women to have penises stuck in their vaginas against their will would also be "not strictly rape", I find it unconvincing.
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BagelManB wrote:
Chad_Ellis wrote:

You can. My point about context was that by taking only the part you quoted and then adding your reply you imply that I'm saying it's OK. The post in its entirety is saying that while it's not strictly rape it's still a serious problem and that the person I was talking to shouldn't be surprised that others consider it very close to rape and deeply threatening.


Since your logic that leads you to the conclusion that "it's not strictly rape" would also lead to the conclusion that requiring women to have penises stuck in their vaginas against their will would also be "not strictly rape", I find it unconvincing.


OK. I think you've badly misunderstood me, but so be it.
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BagelManB wrote:
Chad_Ellis wrote:
BagelManB wrote:
Chad_Ellis wrote:
I agree that it's an exaggerating to call this rape, but I don't think the similarities should be utterly dismissed. If the government says that in order to do X I must do Y, it isn't forcing me to do Y.


Indeed. For instance, if they passed a law saying women couldn't drive unless they allowed any men they encountered to have sex with them, that wouldn't be rape. After all, nobody is forcing the women to drive.


Way to take something out of context. *clap* *clap*


You said "If the government says that in order to do X I must do Y, it isn't forcing me to do Y."

You used X and Y specifically to indicate that the statement applied no matter what you substituted in there.

Why can't I substitute "drive a car" for "X" and "have sex with someone" for "Y"?


You can because it also wouldn't be rape. It would be extortion, oppression, exploitation, legalized sexual harassment and a variety of other very bad things, but it wouldn't be rape. Driving isn't a life requirement, many people get along without doing so just fine.

However your substitution was just flame bait and you know it.

Because no matter how abhorrent the injustice you exaggerate it to becomes ... it still won't change the definition of the words being discussed.

Rape via coercion which mimics consent is possible. But the thing being threatened has to have actual "life threatening" overtones to the individual or someone they care about.

Even coercion at the level of threatening the livelihood of single mothers with kids has not been called "rape" when legal actions against the perpetrators are taken. It is called sexual harassment and/or blackmail etc. As a society we made a whole set of laws to cover this kind of horrific pressure specifically because "rape" laws didn't apply.

Rape is horrible. Sexual Exploitation/Extortion is horrible. But they are different offenses.
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