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Subject: weirdest FFG typo yet rss

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Travis R. Chance
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Not my point. Someone is tasked to handle this; they aren't. So find someone who can, give them credit, pay them however.
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Scott Lewis
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Action Phase wrote:
Not my point. Someone is tasked to handle this; they aren't. So find someone who can, give them credit, pay them however.

So as not to put words in your mouth, or try to unfairly ascertain intent, what do you mean by "they aren't"?

To me, that seems to imply either that the proofers didn't catch anything at all, or that anything short of perfection is failure.

Having every error caught is not really all that realistic considering production deadlines and budget constraints. I did some proofing for Runewars: Banners of War, and I spent a fair amount of time on it (including a couple really late nights). However, I did have a deadline, and despite multiple passes, there were things that I overlooked. But in the process, I caught more things than I missed - some trivial, some not. (I can't really go into details, though)
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Travis R. Chance
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If a proofer allows a typo to get by, then yes, this is a failure on their part. My comment ("they aren't") means they are not handling that for which they have been tasked (and more than likely paid). It is the express intention for which they were hired. It's not a 300 pg. novel. It's a 32 page rule book with a lot pictures. Your tolerable margin for their lack of success should not be leveraged against "perfection." I am not asking them to genetically engineer the perfect organism. And by the same logic, I would expect them to do that for which they are hired/taking credit.

We established that we disagree; the horse is dead, beaten asunder. You like your games flawed. I don't.
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chuckster williams
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Hey guy you think you got problems, well I got a rule book that states, "this game is funny to play." Now that's a typo (or more accurately, a priceless mistranslation.)
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JVKhoury wrote:
I am convinced that FFG's proofreading department consists of someone's nephew, an intern, and a retired research chimp that can smoke, do dishes, and knows more than 400 words in sign language.



Sorry for threadomancy:



http://boardgamegeek.com/thread/359756/cartoons-about-twilig...


FFG, I LOVE You, seriously (especially Ms Thaad and Corey)!
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Derry Salewski
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. . . give a ship.
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I don't think Thaad works there any more.
 
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Dennis Shaper
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Thank you for you vigilance, I know I wouldn't want a game with such glaring problems. How on earth can we expect to play the game right with so blatant, game changing typos? I smell a class action lawsuit.....or maybe not.
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Dennis Shaper
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I like my games flawed? Is the game flawed? Does the misprint of the boldness change the game play? What I see here is an...how do say it without doing overboard? ASS. Sell me you flawed copy, but being that it is flawed I expect a significant discount...75%.
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Dennis Shaper
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This is the dumbest complaint I have seen yet, by the way. But that's just my opinion, therefore I expect no reply.
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Travis R. Chance
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1.) This was not a complaint; it was an observation. I offered as much in the way of compliments as I did upon the catalyst for the discussion. I indicated the formatting issue was minor, hence the title of this thread. I found it odd, curious how such a thing would happen. Beyond this, I had nothing but positive things to say about the game, but you were late to the proverbial party it seems. Oops.

2.) Exaggerating the situation with, I guess, humor in no way invalidates the actual point: someone is paid and credited to proof not just this game, but others; why can't they seem to manage this task? Simply saying "this is stupid" in what would take most adults one consecutive post isn't much of a debate, so why would you expect one?

3.) If you are going to troll the board with your musings try using the edit feature conveniently located at the bottom of your post. This helps to disguise your "oh wait" knee jerk replies to be something more well thought out, thereby making anyone who would dare ask that editors be capable of editing look foolish under the towering shadow of your wit and observational tomfoolery. Also, posting thrice about something not worth your time seems an irony that has obviously escaped you.

4.) My comment about liking rules sources that are flawed wasn't directed at you. So don't get all in a huff, fella.

Troll away.
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Ian Wakeham
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Are the weird formatting errors necessarily the fault of a proofreader? It depends on the production methods of FFG. Do the proofreaders see the galley proofs or final digital copies, or are they simply acting as copy editors on an earlier, unformatted version of the text?

I work as a proofreader and regularly "proofread" boardgame rules for a small number of companies. All have their different ways of working. For one company I see the rules (and components) once, make my corrections and suggestions, and leave it to the developers to do with them as they see fit. Another company will send out a new pdf for review each time corrections are made.

So yes, FFG are to blame, but did a proofreader ever see that formatting or was it a slip by the developer, or even the printer? I've encountered partial bold text at work on a number of occasions and it's usually come from the studio team (i.e. the printers).
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Travis R. Chance
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Fair enough. So, whoever is in charge of this should tighten up. Again, this isn't about this particular release; it's about this one not being "as bad" as others.
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Andrew Martin
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Basically you've killed a zillion electrons describing how incorrect formatting on a few letters in a GAME manual is somehow the end of the world.

The whole thing reminds me of the skit they had on SNL a few weeks ago....with Charles Barkley...this is definitely a 'White Person's Problem'. Alert the media!
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Travis R. Chance
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I rest my case.
 
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Frank La Terra
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THREE FUCKING PAGES? A PARTIALLY BOLDED WORD EARNS THREE PAGES OF THREAD!?!

Is this April 1st? Is this a trap Octavian has sent to get me banned again? Am I having an acid trip?

PLEASE DON'T TELL ME THIS IS SERIOUS!

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Andrew Martin
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Would be even longer if Mr. Phase hadn't deleted all his posts telling me to shush etc.
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Travis R. Chance
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Subtract the page and a half of trolling and people saying "1 page of comments!"/"2 pages of comments!"/"3 pages of comments!" Couple this with the greater context of the post being entirely missed--this was never about the formatting being an issue as much as it was about a trend in the market, esp. with FFG, to have a finished product with some issue or another (whether or not it impacts play being entirely taken into account). There are also a few lunatic rants that were removed, which would have upped the page count even more. I myself took down my initial reaction to reason with someone unreasonable to shorten the length, but, alas, it still ended up a bit long winded, I agree. Take all that out, and it's a healthy page and a half, no? Either way. Beaten horse, rendered dead, and all that jazz. Let's move on.

 
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Georg von Lemberg
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Action Phase wrote:
Matt, this isn't a personal attack. ...

... And while, inevitably, some mishaps made it through to print, blunders of any kind were career nullifying with most of these employers. I mean, after all, isn't this the expectation of someone tasked to handle editing? To say, hey it's not nearly as screwed up as some of FFG's stuff isn't a victory of any sort. Would the art department let an unfinished drawing make it to print that featured a character who was accidentally bereft of fundamental anatomical components, like a guy with no nose, or just floating around without legs? I see no difference. Success should be measured by how well something is done, not by how it is better than something that is easily appraised as poor.


So you are essentially publicly calling on the company to fire someone? Nice. Hope that leads to greater enjoyment of the game for you though.

You know, as a former writer I too am pretty sensitive to mistakes in spelling and grammar. But what has irked me most in my career, are those people who could pick up a document of, let us say, 10,000 words, and within seconds find the one misspelled word that everyone missed, and then focus their entire attention on just that. I am quite certain that if I were to ever go "postal" it would be over just such an incident. Now where is that duffel bag of mine?...

As to the no difference between missing noses and misspelled words, I'm going to assume that you are over-exaggerating for emphasis. Noseless people in a picture can be picked out by toddlers, people who can't read English, and even the chimp referenced above. Noticing an error in a word among many other words, all composed of some variation of 26 different letters takes considerably more knowledge of the language, skill in proof-reading and attention to detail. So yeah, while these are indeed desirable skills in a proof-reader, they are an entirely different skill set than those required for noticing missing noses. A more apt comparison would be to a photographer noticing things about the picture involving focus, lighting or composition, that a typical layman might not notice or recognize as being substandard.

edit (after reading the last couple of posts): Move on? nooooooooooooo.
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Aaron Bredon
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Action Phase wrote:
Whether grammatical or errata-invoking, FFG has quite a rep for rampant typos. I just picked up Rex today, thumbed through it, and was rather impressed with the solid rules of play. Then I stumbled upon page 11, 8th paragraph down:

"A player cannot deploy units into a sector under bombardment..."

Not trying to dis here; I am a huge fan. Many of my dollars are funding the monthly electrical consumption of Christian Peterson's jacuzzi. It just seems that no matter how diligent they are, their proofreaders nod off at some point and hold down a shift key (right before that trip to the printer).

I can't say that I have ever seen a partially bold(ed) typo before. So, kudos in that respect. The age old saying is true: there is no gamer in grammar. But dang close this time, fellas!


I just looked at the PDF I downloaded when the rules first became available, and this weird bolding is NOT there.

It looks like this was a printer software glitch, not a proofreader error.
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Travis R. Chance
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Thanks for the info, Aaron. But yeah, let's move on. I want no one to be fired; I just wanna immaculate guide. This particular game is proof that FFG can do it.
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Mike Urban
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phuloivet wrote:
Hey guy you think you got problems, well I got a rule book that states, "this game is funny to play." Now that's a typo (or more accurately, a priceless mistranslation.)


I've seen that mistranslation from non-native speakers of English in these forums as well (especially French). I can think of a couple of plausible reasons for it. The main one is that 'fun', as an adjective, is a fairly recent development; it is formally a noun. I have a 1915-vintage Parker Brothers brochure that refers to their 'fun-making games', for an example. Even today, when 'fun' is commonly used an adjective, derivations like 'funner' and 'funnest' sound very peculiar, with 'more fun' and 'most fun' being universally preferable. So, a foreigner's English textbook or dictionary will probably only include 'fun' as a noun. So, if that's the noun, what's the associated adjective? Why, 'funny', of course!

I also suspect that 'funny' is the word that is being chosen as the English for French 'amusant'; again, the dictionary probably does not suggest 'fun' at all. I don't know why 'amusing' would not be chosen, though.
 
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Anthony L.
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Mr Skeletor wrote:
THREE FUCKING PAGES? A PARTIALLY BOLDED WORD EARNS THREE PAGES OF THREAD!?!

Is this April 1st? Is this a trap Octavian has sent to get me banned again? Am I having an acid trip?

PLEASE DON'T TELL ME THIS IS SERIOUS!



Don't pay any attention to the part where there actually is a rules typo that they included a little half sheet correcting. Nope, that partially bolded text is serious business.

I seriously LOVE ffg to death. Yes, I've seen a few typos here and there, but at worst they've not been nearly as bad as some games I own, and 9 times out of 10 they come out and admit it and resolve their issues, either through replaced parts or updated PDFs or whatever. All this nerd rage reminds me why I don't look at the BGG forums often and just enjoy my games.
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Jeff Khoury
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Mr Skeletor wrote:
THREE FUCKING PAGES? A PARTIALLY BOLDED WORD EARNS THREE PAGES OF THREAD!?!

Is this April 1st? Is this a trap Octavian has sent to get me banned again? Am I having an acid trip?

PLEASE DON'T TELL ME THIS IS SERIOUS!



My dog in this fight wasn't the simple typo so much as the accumulation of poor proofing/planning/testing that has dogged FFG for years. As an example: I just picked up Elder Sign. While reading the character cards I immediately thought that Mandy and Kate were either over-powered, or at least too easily exploitable. I fired up BGG, found the FAQ and sure enough, Mandy and Kate, and two others, were all errata'd. Mandy and the other two needed a brand new game term "Once Per Day" to fix, and Kate broke the turn sequence to the point of FFG having to make the Midnight Phase happen outside of a player's turn.

Now, if I could spot two characters needing errata (and for two different reasons) while sitting at my kitchen table, never having played the game, nor even having read all of the cards and components, then something is seriously wrong with FFG's process. Seriously wrong, and as others have suggested, new playtesters and proofers might be in order.

This tiny typo discussion may not be the best place to have this conversation, but let's not pretend that this is a trivial problem for FFG just because this instance is trivial.
 
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Travis R. Chance
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Turn to the back of the Elder Sign manual for a better example under the "Ending the Game" portion: All investigators, including any who have been devoured the final battle..."

But yeah, you are right. It's pretty ridic. Applauding them for issuing a public apology in lieu of one the biggest print blunders to date is like bragging about feeding your pets, to me at least. And, last I checked, the apology hasn't allowed me to play a game I bought 3 months ago which is essentially unplayable, nor will the free forthcoming novel if and when this is fixed.
 
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Scott Lewis
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JVKhoury wrote:
Now, if I could spot two characters needing errata (and for two different reasons) while sitting at my kitchen table, never having played the game, nor even having read all of the cards and components, then something is seriously wrong with FFG's process.

I don't think that's a truly accurate assessment. There are times when one person may overlook something (especially after hours of work) that someone else spots right away just by looking in the right place at the right time, but the first person may have caught dozens of things that the second person may have overlooked.

IE, the fact you saw it right away only means that you saw it right away, and that could be partly attributed to having it edited previously. Proofreading often doesn't involve getting a "clean" copy after every pass, especially if time is an issue, and if things were corrected, the overlooked things may not be as evident as they would be in the second, third, or fourth pass.

Is it POSSIBLE to get utter perfection in a rulebook? Probably, if they spent months doing it pass after pass after pass. But there comes a point when the budget is spent, the deadline approaches, and you just have to put forth the best effort you can. FFG has limited funds just like most small companies (and FFG is pretty small in the relative scheme of things).
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