Kweku
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This character is based on the character from the other "fighting game inspired" card game, Yomi. Ever since I played BattleCON I've dreamed of a Yomi VS BattleCON "crossover", and I still think that'd be awesome if Brad and David Sirlin got together and released a couple official crossover characters =P

In the meantime, I've decided to make a few of my favorite Yomi characters for my own BattleCON set. This one is my favorite character from the Yomi universe, Argagarg, the "Pacifist Water Shaman." He's actually currently pictured in my avatar.

The idea behind this character is that he can win without really fighting. In Yomi, his ability "Hex of Murkwood" causes his opponent to lose 2 life at the end of every turn, meaning while Argagarg is playing defensively and avoiding damage, his opponent is whittling away.

I wanted to recreate this feeling here, while taking advantage of some of the cool and unique things that BattleCON offers. Here's my first crack at it.

As of right now (I may edit this post later), I haven't done ANY testing, and haven't really "fine tuned" my numbers... I'm mostly just posting this early as a rough framework so those of you with more BattleCON experience can help point out any obvious problems to save my willing testing opponents the trouble of suffering through any obvious problems there may be, whether it be playability issues or just unwinnable matchups. Here are my notes:

Argagarg, Water Shaman.

Theme: Very annoying to fight. Has a sort of "pacifist" feel, focusing more on avoiding damage and disrupting his opponents plans moreso than dishing out direct damage. Over time, he will whittle his opponent down, just like the ocean he represents can do to the mightiest of mountains.

Unique Ability: Pacifism At the end of the 15th beat (time = 15), discard a "Crash" token to immediately win the match, regardless of current life totals.

Tokens: Ebb, Flow, and Crash

Argagarg may only ante one token per beat.

Ebb Token - Argagarg has 5 Ebb tokens. He has no way to get them back after use. If Argagarg antes an Ebb token, after the reveal step, he may choose one of his opponents stats: Power, Range, or Priority, and reduce that stat by 1.

Flow Token: Argagarg has 5 Flow tokens. He has no way to get them back after use. If Argagarg antes a Flow token, at the end of beat, his opponent suffers 1 damage.

Crash Token: Argagarg has only 1 Crash token, with no way to recover it after use. If Argagarg antes a Crash token, he gets +3 power for the beat. (Note that if Argagarg uses his Crash token, he has no way to use his Pacifism ability. Some matches he might want to win with Pacifism, and other times he might want to just get angry!)

Overdrive Finish: Bubble Shield

Range: N/A, Power: N/A, Priority: -10. Soak 5, Stun Immunity. After Activation: If your opponent hit you during his activation, advance the time marker 5 spaces.

Styles:

Wave - [This is a short range advancement move]. Start of Beat: Advance 1 Space. Range: +0~1, Priority: +1, Power: +1.

Protective - [Disruption move.] Reveal: Your opponent returns the base he played to his hand, and must replace it with a new one. Stun Guard 3, Soak 1. Power/Priority/Range -1/+0/+0. Not sure how this will play out... might benefit opponent too often since he gets to see what you played and consider his options?? Right now I'm going off the hope that this can really screw with many characters by getting rid of their "optimal" option at a vital moment.

Hex - Reveal: Double the effect of a Ebb or Flow token you anted this round. Power Priority/Range -1/+0/+0.

Slippery - [Movement style] Soak 3, Range: -1 Priority: -1 Power: -1. After activation: Move up to two spaces.

Blowfish - [Long range move, high priority, pushes opponent] Range: +1~3, Priority: +4, Power: +1. On Hit: Opponent retreats one space.

Unique Base: Staff

Stun Guard 3, Range: 1 Power: 1 Priority: 1 On Hit: For the rest of the beat, all aspects of your opponent's base are ignored.

Not too sure about this one. Might lower damage and/or change On Hit effect. I'm open for ideas for a cool effect that helps promote defensive, annoying, or disruptive play. I originally had something else here before reading Brad's excellent character making guide that pointed out that Reveal effects don't work on Bases.

Wrap Up:

Anyway, that's what I have so far. What I'm hoping for ultimately is a character that is killable but really annoying, and feels like a slippery fish that you just can't wait to get your hands on. But then every once in a while he can surprise you and deal some real damage, add that to his Flow tokens which are basically free damage and you might be history.

Defensive and stall-oriented, but instead of leveling up and whooping your ass like Magdelina, hopefully it feels like your opponent just sort of dies while fighting you since you're a "Pacifist"

Concerns: Right now I'm kinda concerned that he has too much damage on his cards. It's not a high amount of damage by any means, but maybe his play would just involve a weak attack style and "supplementing" real damage with his Flow tokens. For that reason I'm thinking of making his Staff unique base not add any damage, but instead just have some sort of defensively useful On Hit: effect.

I do want him to have a couple of useful attack option styles though, so hes not completely defenseless. In particular I want him to have one high priority surprise attack in his "Blowfish" style, but I do want his matches to overall feel like the Argagarg player is more focused on avoiding damage than on dishing it out.
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Vladimir Perepelkin
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First of all, a lot of tokens isn't good. If you check battlecon characters you will see that all of them has maximum of 5 tokens (Dany is promo char so we shouldn't consider him).
You can merge all of them into one type of token which can be used differently depending on... something. For example, style played (like Zaamassal styles change paradigms). Or amount of tokens anted (see Luc as reference). Such way will require your character an ability to recover tokens and here you can be creative. Recover number of tokens equals amount of damage guarded (not taken!) this turn (from unique base only, for example)? Or number of spaces between your character and place where enemy's attack highest range will land? Or something else?
Crush token can be easily replaced with requirement of ante all 5 tokens on 15 beat. If your character survives - he wins. This will give token management aspect to him and some chances to token discard characters. Imagine that your character begins to chant hex and your opponent has one last chance to KO him.

Probably I shouldn't give you advices on numbers as I don't have a lot of real experience but I think Wave and Blowfish are overpowered for pacifist character -_- Blowfish grasp will clash with clean dash - and that's VERY strong ability.
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Kweku
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Cool, I like the idea of just having one type of token called maybe "Tide Token" or something instead of Ebb and Flow tokens, and having it do different things depending on the style its anted with. I also like the idea of just having him have less tokens, but giving him an ability to regain them to add some depth to the character (token management)

Also like your idea about change to his Pacifism ability -- ante some X amount of tokens on the 15th beat to win the match at end. The idea of him casting a hex and giving opponent one last chance to stop it is pretty neat, heh.

You're probably right about Blowfish and Wave styles, don't think they further the pacifist agenda... I'll probably leave Blowfish as his one high priority style, but maybe tone it down once I figure out exactly how his tokens will work with each style

Back to the drawing board with some good suggestions for adding more depth... thanks!
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Jayson Stevens
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First thoughts...

Dear GODS Blowfish is insane. That is seriously stupidly powerful.
For comparison on what a high priority surprise attack should look like, try Sweeping (Hikaru).

There is currently only ONE way to get +4 priority via style cards directly, and that's Kehrolyn's Mutating Quicksilver. Even then, that costs her life (2 life total) and is a specific combo.
There are only two different +3s - Sweeping and Bloodletting (Demitras), which is -2 power.
Right now, Blowfish is a completely broken card. The ONLY defense against it is advancing into Range 1... using Start Of Beat effects. Of which there are almost none.

Frankly, here's an opener for you.
Blowfish Strike (with Crash).

7 priority, 8 damage, and the ONLY defense against that is an opening Burst

Make it a Burst instead, and it can only be beaten by a non-standing initial discard - first turn Dash PLUS some other forward movement before End of Beat. Again, not everyone has this ability

===================

If you want to really do the pacifist route, all your styles should have -1 or worse Power.

Blowfish is fine as it is, with one major change: Make it "This hot does no damage" and give it a bigger push effect. I would almost say "On Hit: You may directly move the opponent to any empty space". Very powerful, very disruptive... no damage.

Protective: You're treading on Cherri's turf here, by sort of emulating her forced clash mechanic. It's tricky... I think the best thing, before going into testing, would be to change it to "you MAY force the opponent to choose a new base".

Hex: Rather... unexciting, but the tokens don't really excite me either. Ebb is interesting for sure, but Flow is just... meh.

Slippery: Some real potential here, but at the same time... none. Low priority, and activation-based movement is a tough combo. The soak helps avoid stun, but you're still likely to get stunned anyways.
If the intent is that the movement is stun-cancelable, then great. Otherwise it's likely better as End of Beat, which can't be stunned. Given that you're probably losing priority, you would be moving at what amounts to EoB anyways.

Wave: Looks okey but remains to be seen. Advancing AND plus range is a potent combo. Being a +1/+1/+1 card actually puts it in "strongest cards printed" territory. The closest to it would be Advancing (Hikaru).
Actually, there are no +1/+1/+1 cards at all. For cards with no negatives, there are 2 +1/+1/+0, a couple 0/0/+2, and a 0/0/+3 with a text drawback (Flare, Kallistar)

Biggest problem I see overall, though?
Stall characters are not fun to play against, and they make a 10-15 minute match drag out to half an hour.
When the choice is "I can get in 3 games... or just one with Arg", then people won't want to play against him
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Ettore Gislon
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palmerkun wrote:

When the choice is "I can get in 3 games... or just one with Arg", then people won't want to play against him


Don't you mean WHINY people?

Argagarg is my favourite yomi character, it would be awesome to be able to use it in battlecon as well :)
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Kweku
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thanks, great insights into the attacks. I don't have much insight into the "numbers" part right away so this stuff definitely helps me put it into perspective

Thanks for also pointing out stuff that is sort of similar to things on other characters (Protective/Cherri)

palmerkun wrote:
Biggest problem I see overall, though?
Stall characters are not fun to play against, and they make a 10-15 minute match drag out to half an hour.
When the choice is "I can get in 3 games... or just one with Arg", then people won't want to play against him


I'm going to try and think of ways to alleviate this while letting him be a stall character anyway. Magdelina seems to do this by starting off slow and annoying, but then getting both so powerful and low on life that the match won't go on much longer.

Anyway, as I posted above to the first response I plan on reworking the tokens, so maybe one idea that can be done to shorten the match but still leave it feeling stally is to have one of his token effects speed up the clock, kinda like a less drastic version of what his Overdrive Finish does right now. This has synergy with his Pacifism ability, and helps the match not drag on so long.
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Jayson Stevens
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Mags is a valid comparison, but she's not as stally as Arg. Once she hits Level 3 (Beat 7), she's in position to go on the offensive. All my games with her start turning around on 7 or 8, and then finish by 11. Either way, she stops stalling about halfway through. My best match with her was against Hikaru. I made some bad calls early on and he kept hammering on me. By Beat 7, I was at 5 life, and hadn't hit him ONCE. I did Spiritual Dash, hit Level 3... and then it all came together. That last point of priority made me win all the next beats, and I just hammered him. 20 to zero in 4 beats.

Numbers wise... two major sources.
The Balancing Guide Brad posted (which you've seen)
And... look at all the other cards and find similar ones to compare to.

As for adjustments...

A: Thematically, Hex should have some kind of lasting effect on your opponent. Have it be a power or priority penalty for the next beat (Kallistar and Lixis do this), or maybe have it be "On Hit: Opponent is Stunned", which is very hexing and disruptive.

B: This is a biggie...
B1: Change Bubble Shield to a Style (replacing Protective, likely)
B2: Make "Pacifism" your Overdrive!

Have it read something like 3 total soak and/or stun guard.
"After Activating: If your opponent has 15 or more life, you win immediately"

So you can be stunned out of it... and it only works if you really haven't been hurting your opponent. It also avoids dragging out the match, because in theory, you could activate that as early as Beat 3 (realistically, 4-5). However, it's stunnable, so you really have to properly predict when to use it.

As for tokens... I would go with 1 Ebb, 1 Flow, and either make them easy to recover OR have them auto-recover every turn (like Hepzibah), and then have them generate mild but significant effects.

If you want him to be irritating and hard to pin down, here's a great example for "freely refreshing every turn"
"If you anted Ebb, then Retreat 1 space at End of Beat.
If you anted Flow, then Advance 1 space at End of Beat."
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Aitor
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SirHandsome wrote:
Ever since I played BattleCON I've dreamed of a Yomi VS BattleCON "crossover", and I still think that'd be awesome if Brad and David Sirlin got together and released a couple official crossover characters =P


I have both games, and it would be awesome to have a "Sirlin Games VS Level 99" expansion (as in "Capcom VS Marvel"). Also, it could be convenient for them, as they would save money on illustrations.

But I think it would be much better if Brad and David were the ones designing each other's characters into each one's system.
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Jayson Stevens
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Hollyhock wrote:
SirHandsome wrote:
Ever since I played BattleCON I've dreamed of a Yomi VS BattleCON "crossover", and I still think that'd be awesome if Brad and David Sirlin got together and released a couple official crossover characters =P


I have both games, and it would be awesome to have a "Sirlin Games VS Level 99" expansion (as in "Capcom VS Marvel"). Also, it could be convenient for them, as they would save money on illustrations.

But I think it would be much better if Brad and David were the ones designing each other's characters into each one's system.


I'm sure we'd all love it, but I really doubt it would happen.
On one level, it would seriously dilute the brands. MvC works because the brands are SO different. BCvFS would be a nightmare, because frankly, all of the characters on both sides FIT. We can tell them apart, but if someone new came along, how can they tell that Hikaru and Grave are from different universes?


On the other... both Brad and David are too damn busy with their own games to mess around with someone else's. I don't follow Sirlin too closely, so I don't know what his current project is. Isn't it Puzzle Strike 2 right now?
I do know that Brad has multiple BattleCON projects in the works, on top of an iPad app.

Conclusion: Stick to fanworks.
Feeling Ambitious? Try organizing a more formal effort to do this up "right".
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Kweku
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Hollyhock wrote:
I have both games, and it would be awesome to have a "Sirlin Games VS Level 99" expansion (as in "Capcom VS Marvel"). Also, it could be convenient for them, as they would save money on illustrations.

But I think it would be much better if Brad and David were the ones designing each other's characters into each one's system.


I'd buy it. Not counting on it happening though, officially. As for it being better if Brad/David did this, of course it would -- I'm definitely not making a full-crossover project out of this or anything -- I just want to have a version of Argagarg in my personal set for kicks. He's my favorite Yomi character, and he has a really distinct flavor (like most of the BattleCON characters) so he's a great one to port.

I also love to play defensive/stalling/annoying characters in general. People I play Sirlin's games with will appreciate and get a kick out of this tribute. Problem is I'm still unfamiliar with playing this game, let alone making a character, so I'm trying to leverage the experience of others here -- and it's working. Great feedback so far! Masterfully detailed insight

BattleCON seems like a fantastic system for fan made creations!
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Jayson Stevens
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SirHandsome wrote:
Problem is I'm still unfamiliar with playing this game, let alone making a character, so I'm trying to leverage the experience of others here -- and it's working. Great feedback so far! Masterfully detailed insight

Yes well, that's why we're PBFing now. Play your game, and look over the other games as well, and you can see how things play out.

I've played with a few friends now, and they're all seeming to pick it up quickly. I explain the game, and then 4 beats in, I'm all "Why the hell would you play a Burst NOW.... wait... DAMN YOU!" and they laugh at me.

Quote:
BattleCON seems like a fantastic system for fan made creations!


This was part of Brad's intent from the start.

As stated on the Kickstarter: "With BattleCON, we would like to create a platform with a very low barrier of entry for webmanga, independent comic, and indie game characters to appear as playable characters within the game."

Oooo, indie game characters...

Clearly now I need Meat Boy, the N+ Ninja and Curly Brace statted up...

Wait, I already know the Ninja's cards.
All 5 styles are "Dash". Which means sometimes, he can even Dash-Dash
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Nate K
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Welp, Jayson made all the comments I had about the cards and tokens, and added a few I hadn't thought of. I guess my work here is done. cool
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Mark Iradian
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Quote:

As stated on the Kickstarter: "With BattleCON, we would like to create a platform with a very low barrier of entry for webmanga, independent comic, and indie game characters to appear as playable characters within the game."


Interesting...I used to write a tech-fantasy webcomic (think giant magic-fueled robots mixed in with demons) many years ago, and it had an incredibly talented artist behind as well. Here is a cover of one of the "chapters"

http://lawbringer-vypr.deviantart.com/gallery/?offset=24#/dl...

I would actually love to see something like this for Battlecon, considering I heavily enjoy the game. Sadly, the comic died a while ago, although I did keep in touch with the artist every now and then. Still have my old scripts and even a "remake" script.
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