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Subject: Complexity of VQ? rss

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David Oldster
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I looked at the rules, and they seem a bit daunting.

So, on a scale of Advanced Squad Leader = 10 and Clue = 1, where does this weigh in? I'm thinking around 7...
 
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Carlos Ferreira
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I would go for the same complexity of Here I Stand... Just the same.

Now the question is: What is the weight of HiS? devil

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Finland
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HIS is not very complex but there are quite many rules and the rules affect in many different situation, so it make take a while to digest all the rules.
 
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Joel K
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Leonithic wrote:
I looked at the rules, and they seem a bit daunting.

So, on a scale of Advanced Squad Leader = 10 and Clue = 1, where does this weigh in?

Hmm. I could see an argument for anywhere between 5 and 7, depending on the experience of the gamer and how they learn.

No one rules section is particularly difficult--just procedural. I think the complex part will be what's not in the rulebook...namely, how to structure diplomatic deals and how much to offer or demand for things from other players. Something we'll all have to learn from experience!
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Jeff Gringer
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I'd split the difference and call it a 6. Again Joel gets it right that no particular section is that difficult, it's just how the whole thing meshes together. And Virgin Queen adds several other elements that HIS lacks.
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Steven
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GringerJD wrote:
I'd split the difference and call it a 6. Again Joel gets it right that no particular section is that difficult, it's just how the whole thing meshes together. And Virgin Queen adds several other elements that HIS lacks.


And some of those elements, especially marriages are going to make the diplomacy phase even more... interesting? Certainly increases the options of everyone.

Also more players being involved in the religious struggle (except the poor Ottos) and every player being involved in colonization and exploration, I feel like players need to learn nearly everything. No more just reading one specific piece of the rules.
 
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Roger Hobden
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RoadHouse wrote:
HIS is not very complex but there are quite many rules and the rules affect in many different situation, so it make take a while to digest all the rules.


One problem, and I don't know if this was corrected in the second edition, is that the rules are simply not that well written, with, among other things, a lot of needless repetition. Also, the physical layout of the text itself is not well thought out, and hinders rapid glancing to locate a relevant paragraph.

Chad Jensen and Dean Essig should give workshops to all the other designers on "how to write rules". These two are pretty much the gold standard.
 
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Kristian Thy
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I take it you haven't tried to read the rules for For the People or Empire of the Sun, then. (And I'll take the HIS rules over Combat Commander every day.)
 
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Russ Hewson
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Ooh, For the People - I never want to see the word Riverine again.
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Roger Hobden
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Combat Commander: Europe has one of the clearest rulebooks ever written for a wargame.

Pretty much everyone (over 95 %) who posts regularly on the BGG wargame sub forum agrees with this, even those who don't like the game.
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Jason Johns
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Leonithic wrote:
I looked at the rules, and they seem a bit daunting.

So, on a scale of Advanced Squad Leader = 10 and Clue = 1, where does this weigh in? I'm thinking around 7...


Sorry, I gotta put this lower. ASL is a religion. I'd put Wiffe up there too.

If you've played a CDG then I'd go around a 5. The game rules seem to be easy to me. It's the strategy that's kicking my butt.

 
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David Oldster
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iamspamus wrote:
I'd put Wiffe up there too.


Wiffe?
 
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Philip Thomas
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Leonithic wrote:
iamspamus wrote:
I'd put Wiffe up there too.


Wiffe?


War In Flames For Ewoks


 
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David Oldster
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Philip Thomas wrote:
Leonithic wrote:
iamspamus wrote:
I'd put Wiffe up there too.


Wiffe?


War In Flames For Ewoks




Or World in Flames, Final Edition.

I love those old school wargames where the map took up the floor of a school gymnasium. Loved watching other people play them, that is.
 
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Ola Lundin
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So, would it be possible to teach this game to a semi-casual game group or does everyone need to read the rules beforehand?
 
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Russ Hewson
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I'd say it's already a (very) long game, so adding in a rules explanation would be a no-no. If people are prepared to commit to at least a 6 hour game, they should be able to read the rules beforehand.
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Here I Stand was good since most of players only needed to know one nation's only special rules and the basic rules. Habsburg player needs to know basically all to rules and a more experinenced player should play the Habsburgs.

Could anybody comment that side of VQ? Is it like HiS in the way that you don't need to that much about every nations special things?
 
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Russ Hewson
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I'd say the pretty much everyone needs to know a bit about everything; the Otts don't really need to know about the religious game, the HRE don't need to know so much about piracy are the only exceptions. Though I think the reduction of rule reading in Here I Stand for specific powers is generally overstated (though telling new players that might account for some early Papal and Prot wins ).
 
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Kristian Thy
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Uhtoff wrote:
... the Otts don't really need to know about the religious game, the HRE don't need to know so much about piracy are the only exceptions.


I've played VQ as England, France and HRE and still have no idea how to do religious conversions. Not needed
 
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Russ Hewson
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Ah, but have you done well?
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Joel K
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Uhtoff wrote:
I'd say the pretty much everyone needs to know a bit about everything...

Diplomacy seems more intense and convoluted in this game, so knowing all the procedures will help you know which cards are valuable to which players, which in turn helps structure better deals (or keeps you from getting fleeced in one!).
 
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Benjamin Hejda
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turbothy wrote:
I've played VQ as England, France and HRE and still have no idea how to do religious conversions. Not needed


I have only read the rules, but England and France can do religious conversions and overall are involved in the religious struggle.(As is HRE, which cannot influence it directly, though).
 
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Ola Lundin
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So no playing this with anything but hardcore-gamers then?
 
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Benjamin Hejda
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oolaa wrote:
So no playing this with anything but hardcore-gamers then?

Well, I have persuaded a group of causal players to play HiS, but they were from our church, so the religious struggle served as a big motivation.
But its a catchy game as I am sure VQ will be, so I believe enyone can be persuaded to play it. Just take enough time to explain it and make sure everyone has read the rules before at least once.
 
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