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Dominion» Forums » Variants

Subject: Some attack card ideas rss

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Daniel Loudon
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Trial:
Cost: 4
+1 action
Each other player may reveal a curse. If nobody does, each other player gains a curse. Otherwise, +1 card, +$1.

Appraisal:
Cost: 3
Each other player reveals a card from their hand. Either you gain a copy of it, or he gains a copy of it and discards it; your choice. Then he draws cards until he has 3 in hand.

Rear Admiral:
Cost: 4
+4 cards, return at least two to the top of your deck
Each other player draws one card and returns cards to the bottom of their deck until they have 3 cards in hand.
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Jeremy Volk
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Eagan
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I like Trial.

Appraisal seems a bit overcosted to me (reveal a Silver, no big deal either way). I would either bump it down to 3 or make it a cantrip.

Rear Admiral seems a bit too much like a Margrave/Courtyard to me.
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Andrew Staines
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Grimsby
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I like all three. I think the appraisal is very clever since you need to not show a really good card because your opponent will steal it, but not show a really bad card because you will gain a copy of it. Ideally you do what Jeremy said and show a mid value card... I like the rear admiral but if there are combos out in play or good cycling cards like Lab then playing this card becomes dangerously helpful towards your opponents
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Kevin Costello
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Hmmm... I like them. Especially appraisal. That could play out in some interesting ways.

I like the idea of Trial, but the wording seems cumbersome to me. The "otherwise" comes out as a double negative in my mind. (If its not the case that nobody revealed a curse) And the choices are either everyone gets a curse, or no one does and you get the +1 card, +1$, right? I think the wording would be clearer if it was something like:

"Each other player may reveal a curse from their hand. If any player reveals a curse, +1 card, +1$. Otherwise, each other player gains a curse."

Other than that, it seems pretty cool to me. I've always felt like +1C,+1A,+1$ would be reasonable priced at 4, but would be too dull if that's all it did. Wrapping it up in a conditional cursing attack seems like a cool idea to me. My only complaint might be that it doesn't have enough of a downside since its non-terminal and both possibilities are very good. What if the +1 action was also moved to the non-cursing part. Might be interesting to not know if the card will be terminal or not until after you play it. Just a thought.

I'm not crazy about Rear Admiral. Its not an issue of power necessarily, it just seems like there's too much going on in terms of card draw for my tastes. I mean, imagine if these get chained together with villages, or if a couple get played on consecutive turns in a 3-4 player game. The first one that hits you seems reasonable, okay, you draw 3, get rid of 5. But then you get hit by a second one, and you you draw another 5 cards, and discard 5. And maybe that happens once or twice more. Its just an awful lot of card turnover, which seems like it could be a real drag on the game. And putting the cards on the bottom of the deck will probably result in people overthinking it even more.
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Chris Morrow
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State College
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kevincos wrote:
Its just an awful lot of card turnover, which seems like it could be a real drag on the game. And putting the cards on the bottom of the deck will probably result in people overthinking it even more.


I agree with this. That said, I haven't seen many fan cards that involve the bottom of the deck, and Pearl Diver is the only official card that does, so there is some interesting potential there.

A simplified Ghost-Ship-like card would have an attack effect like "Each player with four or more cards in hand places cards on the bottom of his deck until he has three cards in hand." That may be weaker than either Ghost Ship or Militia, but it's hard to say; it would vary depending on the cards in hand.
 
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Dennison Milenkaya
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And speaking of Pearl Divers ...

Appraisal looks like an awesome way to empty that pile (or Wishing Well when Pearl Divers aren't around) and never worry about that Attack again. Once a pile is empty and you are holding that card when this Attack is made, you merely discard a card that you probably have a lot of and which doesn't do much anyway.

That said, I think that similar cards already do a fine job of sucking: Jesters and Smugglers. The reason is that if you are gaining a copy because it is a decent card, you are putting some mélange into your deck that doesn't necessarily mesh with your strategy. If you avoid taking it because it conflicts with what you are doing, you just give your opponent another copy of it (Jester does this).

I'm playing a Baron deck, you aren't. You use Appraisal. I reveal Estate. Do you: a) Take a weak, useless card to your own deck; or b) give me more Estates to line up with my Barons?

Without explosive action, you got an early Torturer for draw and attack. I respond by ignoring Torturer and choose Libraries. You play Appraisal. I reveal Library. Do you: a) Take a card that your Torturers will draw dead; or b) do you give me another Library that I can either skip while drawing with another, discard due to a Torturer when I'm already holding two, or find in my hand more often to nullify the Torturer's effect?

What it really means is getting a copy of my card is probably not right for your strategy. Giving me another copy of my card is probably very right for my strategy. At least with Jesters, it could dish out Curses (it is slow to do so but perhaps the best-paced Curse-giver for a decent game) and the card copied is randomly determined so I can't just choose one that is wrong for you either way. And yet, Jesters still just causes piles to deplete for no good reason and people end up with crazy decks that have no self-synergy as much as Appraisal will.

You play Appraisal. I reveal Pearl Diver and couldn't give a crap what you do with it.

You play Appraisal. I reveal Copper, provided I have Moneylender, Stables, Ambastard, Spice Merchant, Watchtower, Traders, Gardens, Counting House, many other cards. Thanks!
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Daniel Loudon
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Lenoxus wrote:
kevincos wrote:
Its just an awful lot of card turnover, which seems like it could be a real drag on the game. And putting the cards on the bottom of the deck will probably result in people overthinking it even more.


I agree with this. That said, I haven't seen many fan cards that involve the bottom of the deck, and Pearl Diver is the only official card that does, so there is some interesting potential there.

A simplified Ghost-Ship-like card would have an attack effect like "Each player with four or more cards in hand places cards on the bottom of his deck until he has three cards in hand." That may be weaker than either Ghost Ship or Militia, but it's hard to say; it would vary depending on the cards in hand.


It's stronger than Militia because if you put bad cards on the bottom of your deck (eg estates), you will still draw them later. Militia you always discard your weakest cards. Rear Admiral, even a simplified version, would probably be played like militia, but then the estates you "discard" WILL come back to haunt you as they all pop up in the same hand. If you put back 2 estates for example, they will reappear together, essentially "Militia"ing you again, so you are guaranteed to get hit "badly" by the attack, and unlike ghost ship, you can't easily plan for the next hand. I may have gone overboard with putting 5 cards on the bottom of your deck, but I don't think just making it 2 cards would be as effective, and I want the attack to have a noticeable effect even if it's only played once during that reshuffle.

I posted another 2 card ideas that mess with the bottom of the deck in the "Mermaid" thread if you're interested.
 
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Kevin Costello
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Dennison,

I can't really tell from your post if your criticizing the idea, or just listing interesting things that can happen with it. It seems like you think its underpowered, but I might be misinterpreting you.

But regardless, I don't fully agree with some of your analysis. The most important part being I don't think you give enough weight to the potential discard portion of the attack. So if you reveal a strong card that you want more of, the current turn discard attack becomes very strong, since its discarding one of your better cards, as opposed to militia, where you dump your junk. So if you had Baron, Estate and 3 Coppers, and I play Appraisal, are you really going to be happy about that? If you reveal a Baron or an Estate, and I'm going to give you an extra copy AND break your combo for this turn. And I don't think you actually want an extra copy of either. I almost never try to acquire extra estates to feed into a baron, and without supporting +actions, I almost never want too many copies of a terminal. So I think you'd probably reveal a copper, in which cases you've had to discard 1 coin worth of money and gained a copper you don't want. I'm not sure if Appraisal is an effective counter to Baron, but it at least seems to me to be far better than you give it credit for.

Similarly with the Library vs Torturer, although I do wonder why the Torturer player in your example is running both Torturers and Appraisals. That doesn't seem like a good idea to begin with.

And even with Pearl Diver, or the coppers with cards that use coppers, I may be giving you a card that you kind of sort of maybe want, but at the cost of you having to discard one now, which could be a pretty big deal. And for the Pearl Diver with the empty pile case, you still have to discard a pearl diver. I don't care if you "have a lot" of them, its still reducing your handsize by one. More importantly, its denying you an unknown card (whatever the pearl diver would have drawn) which is probably much worse than discarding junk. AND this can stack with supporting actions, potentially leading to a complete pin (which is probably my biggest concern with the card as written. It might need a clause that it only works on hands of a certain size)

For sure there are situations where you wouldn't want to play this card, but that's true of almost every dominion card. But in situations with abundant actions, or almost any scenario where you and your opponent are pursuing similar strategies, this seems like a cool card idea.

Also, I like Jester.
 
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Dennison Milenkaya
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I don't disagree with your over-all point, but I'm not under-valuing the discard. I think that Militia is a more effective discarding Attack so the single discard is under-powered and I valued it as precisely that. Also, since it is unlikely that my opponent will give me a second copy of a strong card, I won't be discarding a strong card. Except as noted above, where I might offer a Library, knowing it isn't right for my opponent to get one. In that case, discarding a Library (presumably while I'm holding another) won't hurt. If I'm not holding another, then I don't discard this one and make up for the discarding entirely.

Of course, what this card doesn't take into account is that if it makes me discard without a minimum, it can be played repeatedly (King's Court, King's Court, Appraisal, Appraisal) and laugh at everyone else who has no cards in hand any more, repeat until you deplete three piles, copy a couple Estates along the way, win the dumbest game of Dominion ever played. But since that really just means that this part of the card needs to be fixed regardless of how much I dislike the intended effect, I thought I'd focus on why actions that gain random cards from other people's decks make for poor cards.

For what it's worth, I think that Jesters already do what is being attempted much better and I gave them credit in my above post. But they do suffer from the lack of synergy that they create for the user and emptying piles faster than necessity dictates, which, while not the more horrible thing that can happen, does easily throw off the pacing of the game, making it more random and less strategic over-all, albeit in a minor way that can be adjusted for (and arguably adds a different layer of strategy, credit where it's due) but shorter games for no-good-reason tend to be rather dull. I like to spend more time playing than setting up the next game -- don't you?
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Daniel Loudon
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It's only a pin as much as Torturer is a pin.

Edit: Well, it is now... Thanks for picking it up
 
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Dennison Milenkaya
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Interesting patch for the Appraisal card. There have not yet been any Attacks that let me discard a weak card to draw something better. Margrave does this the other way around, though.

But now I'm wondering why my second post's point was thoroughly addressed and my first post completely ignored.
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