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Subject: Hold the Line or Viktory II? I want your opininon! rss

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Chris Strabala
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I started this topic here. I'm posting on the wargame forum to hopefully give it a little more exposure. If you wouldn't mind adding your two-cents, I would appreciated it!

Thanks!
 
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J.L. Robert
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I think the comments in your previous thread pretty much sums things up nicely.

If you like theme, Hold the Line is your choice. But from most accounts, Viktory II is the more enjoyable game.
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Nathan James
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Seems like to highly dissimilar games. Do the research to find out what each one game is, and decide which one is more like what you really want.
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Thom0909
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I'm not sure if it's safe to conclude that by "most accounts," Viktory is more enjoyable. There's one person on that thread who says so.

In like HtL a lot and haven't played Viktory II. As others have said, it depends on things like whether you want historical battles or multiplayer.
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I know nothing about HtL, but you can play V2 absolutely free here: http://gamesbyemail.com/
Try it and see if you like it.

I've played it at the above site and didn't care for it. There is something about strategy games wherein you eventually have to screw over everyone in order to be the last man standing that rubs me the wrong way. You get into these fairly complicated, yet temporary alliances that require a lot of typing and very careful play and after a while it's just not worth the effort for me. Diplomacy is the same in this regard and I dislike it for the same reason.
The boardgame version might be a little different in this, since verbal agreements might be easier to implement, but keep in mind that the first few players usually get eliminated quickly, before the remaining 2 or 3 battle it out to the end. In the meantime, what are the eliminated players to do?

I'm glad I tried it at the above site before having spent the money on the boardgame.
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Jonathan Harrison
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Da Debil wrote:
I know nothing about HtL, but you can play V2 absolutely free here: http://gamesbyemail.com/
Try it, so see if you like it.

Ooo! Impressive. Didn't know about this. I've been on the fence about this one for ages, seems like.

Thanks for the link.
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Brandon Pennington
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Those are very different kinds of games. Viktory II is a fine game, but is more of a area control game. HtL is a tactical game. I actually like both games, but I would almost alway pick HtL over Viktory II.
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Kent Reuber
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crsluggo wrote:
I started this topic here. I'm posting on the wargame forum to hopefully give it a little more exposure. If you wouldn't mind adding your two-cents, I would appreciated it!


Hold the Line is a tactical game based on actual battles. Viktory II is a more strategic game based on Napoleonic technology, but not based on actual battles.
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J.L. Robert
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Prop Joe wrote:
I'm not sure if it's safe to conclude that by "most accounts," Viktory is more enjoyable. There's one person on that thread who says so.

In like HtL a lot and haven't played Viktory II. As others have said, it depends on things like whether you want historical battles or multiplayer.


I'm going by the broader range of users who have rated V.II vs. HtL. Their ratings are comparable in both quantity and quality, but HtL's raters are comprised of more "hardcore" wargamers.

If I were the OP, I'd see if rulebooks for both are available online, read them both, and decide which would be the better "fit" for me.
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Chris Strabala
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Thanks for the responses!

For those of you who have played HtL, how does it play compared to C&C games?
 
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HuginnGreiling wrote:
Da Debil wrote:
I know nothing about HtL, but you can play V2 absolutely free here: http://gamesbyemail.com/
Try it, so see if you like it.

Ooo! Impressive. Didn't know about this. I've been on the fence about this one for ages, seems like.

Thanks for the link.

You can play Acquire there too, in case you're interested. They renamed it Mergers, but it's the same thing. It's a great little game to play online.
I'm in a smallish BGG Guild wherein we play both Mergers and Empires (which is really History of the World).
New members always welcome.

Back to the topic...
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Barry Kendall
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crsluggo wrote:
Thanks for the responses!

For those of you who have played HtL, how does it play compared to C&C games?



I've played a lot of C&C system games since the original "Commands & Colors" (predecessor to "Battle Cry"). I own all of them.

I've also played a lot of Clash for a Continent/Hold the Line and own all of them too, plus the expansions.

Although they both have hex-grid boards and terrain tiles, the similarities end there. Each plays very differently.

HtL does not have a center/flanks order concept and no card deck for commands. Instead, players begin with a small "Command point" total and add to this each turn by die roll. Losing a Leader reduces the CP total by one for each Leader lost.

Order points can be used to move units, fire units, and attempt to rally units (which, when successful, returns a point of strength/morale). Combat is by Fire or Melee (which is more costly to initiate in Command Points but more lethal and decisive).

Right now, HtL is the only system of the two representing the French/Indian War and American Revolotion. Richard Borg has a Seven Years' War version of C&C ready to go and waiting for a publisher, and he's quite enthusiastic about it.

But if you want to play battles from the SYW in North America, the American Revolution or the War of 1812, the "Clash/HtL" system is the one that lets youu do it.

I like to use the tricorne "Risk" figures for flavor in my Clash/HtL games (though the counters in HtL are very nice). I have to say it's a toss-up between the two systems; I like each very much, one is not more difficult to play than the other nor does one take longer to play than the other.

They're both a lot of fun and worth owning.

I also have Viktory II, which is an entirely different kind of game with an exploration element and a strategic element not present at all in HtL. I like V-II, too, especially with a larger hex area (even for a two-player game).

My advice: Buy HtL and the French & Indian War expansion. You'll play the heck out of it.

Buy Viktory II as well, if you can afford it; if not, ask for it for your birthday.

And keep an eye out for Richard's SYW game; it has a number of European battle scenarios and I'm pretty sure he told me there are American Revolution battles as well.

By the way, watch out for Woodland Indians in HtL/F&&I War. They are elusive, mobile, and cause a great deal of worry. They're also great fun to play.
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Chris Strabala
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HuginnGreiling wrote:
Da Debil wrote:
I know nothing about HtL, but you can play V2 absolutely free here: http://gamesbyemail.com/
Try it, so see if you like it.

Ooo! Impressive. Didn't know about this. I've been on the fence about this one for ages, seems like.

Thanks for the link.


I'm going to give it a play! Thanks for the link!
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Chris Strabala
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Barry Kendall wrote:
crsluggo wrote:
Thanks for the responses!

For those of you who have played HtL, how does it play compared to C&C games?



I've played a lot of C&C system games since the original "Commands & Colors" (predecessor to "Battle Cry"). I own all of them.


I may be mistaken, but I thought BC was the first C&C game...
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Barry Kendall wrote:
And keep an eye out for Richard's SYW game; it has a number of European battle scenarios and I'm pretty sure he told me there are American Revolution battles as well.

Why would there be? Do you mean French & Indian War battles? (The latter was part of the SYW; the Am. Rev. was not.)
 
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Barry Kendall
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Patrick Carroll wrote:
Barry Kendall wrote:
And keep an eye out for Richard's SYW game; it has a number of European battle scenarios and I'm pretty sure he told me there are American Revolution battles as well.

Why would there be? Do you mean French & Indian War battles? (The latter was part of the SYW; the Am. Rev. was not.)


Because the AWI still falls in the era of linear combat.
 
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Barry Kendall
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crsluggo wrote:
Barry Kendall wrote:
crsluggo wrote:
Thanks for the responses!

For those of you who have played HtL, how does it play compared to C&C games?



I've played a lot of C&C system games since the original "Commands & Colors" (predecessor to "Battle Cry"). I own all of them.


I may be mistaken, but I thought BC was the first C&C game...



Back in the '90s, Richard Borg appeared at a HMGS-East convention (I believe it was Historicon) selling a ziploc bag with a black-and-white rulebook, black-and-white cards (pre-cut, square corners), and blank white dice with a sheet of colored stickers in arm-of-service colors (blue, yellow, red, plus white with a flag icon and black with white crossed sabers). The game was called "Commands & Colors" and sold for $20.

The rulebook included six scenarios with illustrations of the thirteen-by-nine hex grid. All were American Civil War actions. There was no map, no terrain tiles and no playing pieces; players supplied their own.

We used to play the game on a "Battlemasters" mat with foam hills, model RR trees, cake-decoration fences and Marx 54mm Civil War soldiers. We had a ball with it.

This game was picked up by "old" Avalon Hill, and was slated to be the next game published after their newest strategic Civil War and Battle of the Bulge titles (which were actually released). Richard was demo-ing it (using old Milton Bradley "Battle Cry" pieces) at cons when AH was bought out by Hasbro.

The design was ultimately published as "Battle Cry." There were some tweaks to the scenarios (such as cavalry added to the Henry House Hill/Bull Run scenario) and more scenarios were added as well (along with some amendments to the card deck) but it was very much the same game.

So originally, "Battle Cry" was simply called "Commands and Colors." I still have the original set in one of my "Battle Cry" boxes. I still like the original dice with colored faces better than the newer ones; it was very easy to tell at a distance whether one had rolled a blue Infantry hit, a yellow Cavalry hit, a red Artillery hit, a Retreat (white flag) or a black Crossed Sabers result.
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Chris Strabala
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Thanks for the explanation! A very neat tid-bit of gaming history.
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Barry Kendall wrote:
Patrick Carroll wrote:
Barry Kendall wrote:
And keep an eye out for Richard's SYW game; it has a number of European battle scenarios and I'm pretty sure he told me there are American Revolution battles as well.

Why would there be? Do you mean French & Indian War battles? (The latter was part of the SYW; the Am. Rev. was not.)

Because the AWI still falls in the era of linear combat.

So do the Napoleonic wars. And the American Civil War, for that matter. And there are separate games for those.

It's logical to publish a Seven Years War game with French & Indian War scenarios, since they're all really part of the same war. But if AWI scenarios are included, it should not be called a SYW game; it should be called an 18th-century warfare game or something.
 
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Don Cooper
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I have not played Columbia's Victory II, but have played Worthiington's Hold the Line. I think if you were getting into block games, Victory is a good introduction. It is a bit abstract, something like Blitzrieg by Avalon Hill, fictional nations at war. Hold the Line is much more line in the realm of a classical wargame. The battles are historically based, although a bit abstract compared to some other revolutionary battle games.
 
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Chris Strabala
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Thank you all for your opinions! I just wanted to all of you know I ended up ordering Viktory II & should be receiving it in the next week!

I plan on doing some more research on the various Worthington Games offerings & at some point will likely pick up a title or two.

Thanks Again!
 
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DUMASCLUB wrote:
I have not played Columbia's Victory II, but have played Worthiington's Hold the Line. I think if you were getting into block games, Victory is a good introduction.

The discussion wasn't about Columbia's Victory, it was about Viktory II, an entirely different game system.

One thing nobody mentioned is that Napoleon's War: The 100 Days and Napoleon's War II: The Gates of Moscow use essentially the same system as Hold the Line, and employ the same figures as Viktory II.
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Chris Strabala
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I saw that as I was buzzing around their various titles. One thing that puzzles me is why they use three different unit representations (cardboard, block, & figure) instead of settling on one?
 
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crsluggo wrote:
I saw that as I was buzzing around their various titles. One thing that puzzles me is why they use three different unit representations (cardboard, block, & figure) instead of settling on one?

The first rev (Clash for a Continent / For Honor and Glory) used blocks, but they were thin and weren't used as blocks typically are (for hiding unit values). Basically they were thin blocks that laid flat and served as thick counters.

The second rev (Hold the Line + the expansion) was clearly an overall graphic upgrade, with little development other than a fresh set of scenarios. The third rev (Nappy's War I and II thus far) saw the physical transition to the Viktory II miniatures. I think what we're seeing here is a company striving to improve its product. The marketplace will determine how well they succeed; not everyone thinks plastic figures are better than counters.

What I would like to see going forward is less evolution of the physical product, and more energy directed towards improving the rules. The basic engine is still very much the same as existed with Clash for a Continent, even including some awkward areas in the rules that draw questions with each new evolution. The most recent rules experiments (skirmisher option in Nappy I and chit draws in Nappy II) have been poorly received.

I think some tightly focussed rules development would be welcomed with open arms. I posted my own development efforts in the form of a variant for Nappy I, and hope to find time to revisit that and update it to incorporate Nappy II (and III). If so, I'll do my best to tighten up some areas that I still think could be improved, without unduly complicating the system.
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