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Subject: Rallyman with 6p rss

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Paul S
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So... despite the urgings of the author to buy multiple copies of the game (!!!) I ended up playing this for the 1st time tonight in a group and thought I might post a few thoughts about it.

First: it is possible to play this with 6p (with only one copy of the game), if you have the right 6p!

We played with 6p tonight.

We had 2 single players, and 2 x 2 teams, to make 6.

It turns out, it's a really good game to do that with.

Especially if, like us, you have a few players who are maths-mad, and some who are less mathematically-able.

We played a fairly simple 2-card track, and staggered starts as the rules suggest; we failed to stagger it at first, and realised that the clutter was bad, so we re-started immediately.

Turns out that being 3rd or 4ths is a pain in terms of getting hung up behind the next player - we saw a lot of concertina-ing. Not good.

I was crap, which is par for the course for me with new games I introduce to my group. I am going to set up a Geeklist called "why all my new games are crap" - but that is for another day.

We loved it. I came last, by nearly 2 minutes, but the overall view, without using "time attack" was that we'd found a nice sweet spot for dice and everyone wanted to play again.

Lots of fun. Competitive too. We will play again.
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Cameron Chien
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I recommend that you do a double stagger start. What you do is stagger the players out by two turns in between. So what you would have happen is:

Player 1
Player 1
Player 1, Player 2
Player 1, Player 2
Player 1, Player 2, Player 3
Player 1, Player 2, Player 3
Player 1, Player 2, Player 3, Player 4
Player 1, Player 2, Player 3, Player 4

Sure, it takes awhile before the last player gets to go, but then you are spread out a lot more, which cuts down on clutter and also on copy-cat gameplay.

Cameron
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Johny W
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I don't like it:

Player 1:
- either takes a shortcut (dirt marker or loss of one dice)
- makes a time attack, if successfull he forces the 2nd to do it also
- makes no time attack. Chance for the second to do so.

There are enough possibilities to distinguish the players

Last time I had it for the first time (3 board stage) that 2 player have been identical until the last throw. The second was forced to take the shortcut - and had bad luck. Last a dice and needed 1 card more to finish...

We also had a stage where all 4 player are in between 10 seconds. This is what's the game about: fighting for every second!
 
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Cameron Chien
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JohnyW wrote:

We also had a stage where all 4 player are in between 10 seconds. This is what's the game about: fighting for every second!

You don't have to be adjacent to each other for it to be a close race. That is what makes rally racing unique. If you want a racing game where the cars are literally neck and neck, I would suggest Formula D.

In real life rally racing it is very rare for opponents to actually race near each other. Generally the only time they see another car during the stage is if they are passing a driver who has crashed.

Cameron
 
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Bart de Groot
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Zeede wrote:
You don't have to be adjacent to each other for it to be a close race. That is what makes rally racing unique. If you want a racing game where the cars are literally neck and neck, I would suggest Formula D.


Or Speed Circuit.
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Paul S
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I think I am with Cameron here. We had 2 corners - neither of which had shortcuts - where 1 or 2 following cars had to stop in the space before the corner. Frustrating for those following, especially when IRL this is rare.

I'm tempted to houserule that you can overtake in a corner by going on the inside if someone's skidding, or vice versa.

Edit: or we'll just adopt the suggested extra-stagger; nice idea, ta.
 
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It seems that the rules (Article 9) handle overtaking an opponent pretty well, IMHO. It gives four distinct situations where overtaking is allowed, which covers most all of the possibiltites you're likely to encounter while racing.

1) On a straight, as long as the road is not blocked by two cars side-by-side.

2)Through a shortcut, as long as the opponent is on the corner (interior trajectory or drifting).

3)Through the corner, as long as the opponent is on the shortcut.

4)Opponent is off the road.

As stated already, IRL rally racing rarely sees two vehicles actually racing side-by-side for the finish. Rally is a timed event, each vehicle against the clock while they run the course. Times are compared after all vehicles finish or DNF, at which time it is determined who was the fastest, and consequently, who was the winner.

BTW: Anyone interested in this game can check it out on VASSAL, with rules available on the Rallyman homepage. I have been learning the game this way, whilst waiting for my physical copy to arrive in the post.

EDIT: There is one other alternative... drive faster!
 
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Cameron Chien
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The problem is, Cantatta, is that players vary the most in how they tackle corners, and in corners it is almost impossible to overtake someone.

Cameron
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Paul S
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Zeede wrote:
in corners it is almost impossible to overtake someone.
Cameron


Completely impossible, if no shortcut, I think.
 
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Cameron Chien
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Yup, but some corners do have shortcuts, hence "almost impossible"

Cameron
 
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Paul S
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We're agreeing but using different words, I think.

To be clear:

You can overtake in corners with shortcuts.

You cannot overtake in corners with no shortcuts.

I think we will both agree on that. And I think it's a pain in the arse, unless you use some of the mods mentioned above.
 
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Sean Tompkins
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It seems like downtime between turns would be the hard thing - we get antsy playing with a full 4 player game. Especially hard is the staggered start/finish.

I'm toying with an idea of running a variant race where you take turns based on time spent, and just ignore other cars - you pretend they are "ghost" racers... You could use a time board like Red November has to keep track of what you've spent... Doing this wouldn't feel like a "real" rally because they DO use staggered starts and compare times at the end - but so many people I play with are used to auto races where it's "who crosses the finish line first" anyway...
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Juan Medina
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seanp wrote:
It seems like downtime between turns would be the hard thing - we get antsy playing with a full 4 player game. Especially hard is the staggered start/finish.

I'm toying with an idea of running a variant race where you take turns based on time spent, and just ignore other cars - you pretend they are "ghost" racers... You could use a time board like Red November has to keep track of what you've spent... Doing this wouldn't feel like a "real" rally because they DO use staggered starts and compare times at the end - but so many people I play with are used to auto races where it's "who crosses the finish line first" anyway...


Hmmm, isn't there a possibility to actually have two racers end up in the same locations even when staggered? e.g. Someone doing really good catching up to someone doing poorly?

I see your point though. You could actually run the races side by side no problem, maybe with two copies of the game. Also, you could just say the same racers ran the same track at different times, they are just comparing the times, thus eliminating the issue where two racers could possibly collide.
 
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Cameron Chien
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Paul: Yes, we are saying exactly the same thing

The later players have the disadvantage of dirt being strewn onto the corners, but the advantage of watching the race leader to see how he or she is tackling the stage.

Cameron
 
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Sorry, Cameron, I think I misunderstood the problem. Still learning the nuances of the game here. I do have to say it's a great game, though.

For racing gap between drivers, what if you make a rule that the next driver can't start until the driver in front of them has covered 60sec minimum? For instance, as 1st driver, you only use 50sec on your first two turns, so 2nd driver cannot start until turn three, and so on. Only slightly different from the fine suggestion put forth by Cameron, but different in that 2nd driver might still get to start sooner, in the right situation. It is within the realm of possibilty that you could wipeout as 1st driver on turn one, thus allowing 2nd driver to start on turn two and possibly pass you. Just another idea for the discussion.

I think the idea of allowing passes in any corner sounds reasonable, though it would seem logical to only allow the drifter to pass, since they are supposedly the car that is going faster. With the rules allowing a little bit of gamey-ness in the corners, some might argue against this approach, but I think it has merit.
 
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Johny W
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Zeede wrote:

You don't have to be adjacent to each other for it to be a close race. That is what makes rally racing unique. If you want a racing game where the cars are literally neck and neck, I would suggest Formula D.


In a real rally the times of a stage are very close about 10-15 seconds.

For this game is for every stage a single fastest time. Each player has to find it. For instance you have a straight line of 14 fields. Each player knows that the fastest time is 0:15.
Then is just a question how much risk you take.

I like it when we have results like 4:40, 4:52, 4:37 and 4:55.

Overtaken:
Without loosing a dice or crash we never ever saw in the game that someone was overtaken. If someone tries to overtake I always try to force the opponent to take seconds (end my turn in curves).

If the driver in front of me lost a dice it's easy to overtake. If not, he can't find a good route on track it's easy to overtake also. Just calculate your next turns in advance (5-7 are sufficient).

@Paul Art 12.3 describes overtaking in curves without shortcuts:
In curves it's easy to overtake: For instance: a player stops on drifting line. Stop your turn before the curve. On the next turn shift one gear down and accelerate. Or block the inside lane(so he needs more dices to drift). If the stops on the inside lane he lost the rally anyway cause this is 10 seconds slower than on the drifting lane...
But as wrote normally this does not happen for experience drivers.

Thomas

 
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Cameron Chien
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Sorry, by "adjacent" I mean to say that the cars son't physically have to be next to each other on the stage for it to be a close race. Most racing disciplines have the cars racing alongside each other.

Also, I would suggest more complex and/or longer stages, as it should not be down to just whoever is luckiest pressing their luck the most. You also want to discourage players from spending too long plotting their entire stage out beforehand.

Cameron
 
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Johny W
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Hi Cameron,

with the Dirt expansion you can build stage with 8 boards. I also recommend the Stage on the Rallyman World Cup on www.rallyman.fr the first race of Portugal we needed for 2 persons an long evening. It's also nice to compare your time with other players. Now we have every second Monday a Rallyman World Cup evening.

For my opinion. It's the mix between long and short stages. Even the short ones are interesting especially if you loose the SISU Card too early. Or like to race in Portugal where could not use it, cause we had luck.

Thomas

 
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