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Subject: Mayday Games on Kickstarter & Deniath rss

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Aaron Cappocchi
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darthhugo wrote:

FWIW, I did not support this project.


Neither did I, though I seriously considered it. If I had, I would certainly be annoyed that newer customers were receiving a better deal than us Kickstarter backers, who went out of our way to support a project we believed in (or just wanted badly), even from a publisher with a checkered reputation. But would I be furious and venting that Mayday had clearly broken a legal agreement between us? I hope not.


darthhugo wrote:

I believe you are missing the whole point of this situation. That's just my opinion. I could be wrong.


How so? I believe some folks are incensed over broken promises which were never actually made. Previous and exceedingly numerous "burned by Mayday" experiences have created a deep well of bad feelings about Mayday here, which are boiling over into a maelstrom of resentment. What obvious facet of the issue am I missing?
 
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darthhugo wrote:
It really appears that the monies that were paid for bringing the items to US shores also helped fund the siblings of these items (from the same shipment) to be sold via a different marketing segment.


Really?

A company is using Kickstarter to provide funds to bring a product to market?

Who would have thought?
 
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We were selling to Deniath Weykick at a wholesale price, as we would with a distributor. Since it is a PRIVATE sale and we cannot directly set the price we didn't see a conflict, which is why we agreed to it in the first place. While we are not selling these directly we can totally see your point and we have asked Deniath to cancel the Weykick sale and refund all of those they have already collected from.

The game is not scheduled for release until May so no one is getting these from Deniath and I'm very sorry for the confusion. We will actively monitor other sites as well to ensure no one is selling any cheaper than the MSRP on these.

As has been hinted at, we cannot legally prohibit retailers from selling at whatever price they want, but we can select who we sell to. Additionally there are very, very few of these even available after the kickstarter so the price will likely stay pretty high.

We are not offering Weykick on our site cheaper than the Kickstarter and we should have been more careful with Deniath. I am just sorry I didn't catch this sooner, I'm actually over in China right now and didn't notice this discrepancy between the Deniath's offer and the Kickstarter price.
 
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campfire113 wrote:
especially with all the promises and guarantees that were made:
"We can guarantee that we will NOT be offering this game so cheap ever again"[/COLOR]

Was that on the kickstarter page? I just went there and it's not with the rest of the quote you posted. I'd be shocked (SHOCKED!) to find out that Seth has removed it.
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maydaygames wrote:
We were selling to Deniath Weykick at a wholesale price, as we would with a distributor. Since it is a PRIVATE sale...


ANNOUNCEMENT: In the future, I would like all private sales made to me by game companies to be at wholesale prices, as they would with distributors.

Thank you. Carry on.
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maydaygames wrote:
We were selling to Deniath Weykick at a wholesale price, as we would with a distributor. Since it is a PRIVATE sale and we cannot directly set the price we didn't see a conflict, which is why we agreed to it in the first place. While we are not selling these directly we can totally see your point and we have asked Deniath to cancel the Weykick sale and refund all of those they have already collected from.

The game is not scheduled for release until May so no one is getting these from Deniath and I'm very sorry for the confusion. We will actively monitor other sites as well to ensure no one is selling any cheaper than the MSRP on these.

As has been hinted at, we cannot legally prohibit retailers from selling at whatever price they want, but we can select who we sell to.


So your position seems to be similar to someone basically saying:

1. We, and everyone else, knows that you can't control the price retailers sell games at

2. Therefore we knew that we couldn't actually keep the price promise we made on Kickstarter

3. Therefore we had no intention of keeping that promise when we made it

4. We saw nothing ethically wrong about making such a promise
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maydaygames wrote:
We were selling to Deniath Weykick at a wholesale price, as we would with a distributor. Since it is a PRIVATE sale and we cannot directly set the price we didn't see a conflict, which is why we agreed to it in the first place. While we are not selling these directly we can totally see your point and we have asked Deniath to cancel the Weykick sale and refund all of those they have already collected from.

The game is not scheduled for release until May so no one is getting these from Deniath and I'm very sorry for the confusion. We will actively monitor other sites as well to ensure no one is selling any cheaper than the MSRP on these.

As has been hinted at, we cannot legally prohibit retailers from selling at whatever price they want, but we can select who we sell to. Additionally there are very, very few of these even available after the kickstarter so the price will likely stay pretty high.


Saving in case of future edits.
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Lee Fisher
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maydaygames wrote:
We were selling to Deniath Weykick at a wholesale price, as we would with a distributor. Since it is a PRIVATE sale and we cannot directly set the price we didn't see a conflict, which is why we agreed to it in the first place. While we are not selling these directly we can totally see your point and we have asked Deniath to cancel the Weykick sale and refund all of those they have already collected from.

The game is not scheduled for release until May so no one is getting these from Deniath and I'm very sorry for the confusion. We will actively monitor other sites as well to ensure no one is selling any cheaper than the MSRP on these.

As has been hinted at, we cannot legally prohibit retailers from selling at whatever price they want, but we can select who we sell to. Additionally there are very, very few of these even available after the kickstarter so the price will likely stay pretty high.

We are not offering Weykick on our site cheaper than the Kickstarter and we should have been more careful with Deniath. I am just sorry I didn't catch this sooner, I'm actually over in China right now and didn't notice this discrepancy between the Deniath's offer and the Kickstarter price.


preserving post #2
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George J. Wendt
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maydaygames wrote:
We were selling to Deniath Weykick at a wholesale price, as we would with a distributor. Since it is a PRIVATE sale and we cannot directly set the price we didn't see a conflict, which is why we agreed to it in the first place. While we are not selling these directly we can totally see your point and we have asked Deniath to cancel the Weykick sale and refund all of those they have already collected from.

The game is not scheduled for release until May so no one is getting these from Deniath and I'm very sorry for the confusion. We will actively monitor other sites as well to ensure no one is selling any cheaper than the MSRP on these.

As has been hinted at, we cannot legally prohibit retailers from selling at whatever price they want, but we can select who we sell to. Additionally there are very, very few of these even available after the kickstarter so the price will likely stay pretty high.

We are not offering Weykick on our site cheaper than the Kickstarter and we should have been more careful with Deniath. I am just sorry I didn't catch this sooner, I'm actually over in China right now and didn't notice this discrepancy between the Deniath's offer and the Kickstarter price.


Seriously? That's your response? Just so I understand, you sold kickstarter copies only to back out of one of the promises you made to kickstarter supporters. When caught, you then decide to back out of the sale entirely of a different group of people. Just refund the money to those who kickstarted and keep all your promises. I backed Eaten by Zombies and had to wait months for my promos. I was still willing to order Weykick from deniath, however.. If the promise of sale gets broken, however, I will certainly never order from Mayday again and would actively encourage others to follow suit.
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Mayday Games
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We are sorry George, it should not have been offered at a discount on Deniath and we are doing our best to fix that. We need to honor our commitment to the Kickstarter backers and are doing our best to do so.

We will get the list of refunded customers form Deniath and try to talk to them personally about the situation. They will get us numbers but I'm guessing that was less than a dozen people.
 
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maydaygames wrote:
We were selling to Deniath Weykick at a wholesale price, as we would with a distributor. Since it is a PRIVATE sale and we cannot directly set the price we didn't see a conflict, which is why we agreed to it in the first place. While we are not selling these directly we can totally see your point and we have asked Deniath to cancel the Weykick sale and refund all of those they have already collected from.

The game is not scheduled for release until May so no one is getting these from Deniath and I'm very sorry for the confusion. We will actively monitor other sites as well to ensure no one is selling any cheaper than the MSRP on these.

As has been hinted at, we cannot legally prohibit retailers from selling at whatever price they want, but we can select who we sell to. Additionally there are very, very few of these even available after the kickstarter so the price will likely stay pretty high.


maydaygames wrote:
We were selling to Deniath Weykick at a wholesale price, as we would with a distributor. Since it is a PRIVATE sale and we cannot directly set the price we didn't see a conflict, which is why we agreed to it in the first place. While we are not selling these directly we can totally see your point and we have asked Deniath to cancel the Weykick sale and refund all of those they have already collected from.

The game is not scheduled for release until May so no one is getting these from Deniath and I'm very sorry for the confusion. We will actively monitor other sites as well to ensure no one is selling any cheaper than the MSRP on these.

As has been hinted at, we cannot legally prohibit retailers from selling at whatever price they want, but we can select who we sell to. Additionally there are very, very few of these even available after the kickstarter so the price will likely stay pretty high.

We are not offering Weykick on our site cheaper than the Kickstarter and we should have been more careful with Deniath. I am just sorry I didn't catch this sooner, I'm actually over in China right now and didn't notice this discrepancy between the Deniath's offer and the Kickstarter price.


I find it really hard to believe that Mayday didn't know what Deniath was planning to do considering Mayday itself sent out an e-mail message today advertising the Deniath Private Sale...
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George J. Wendt
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maydaygames wrote:
We are sorry George, it should not have been offered at a discount on Deniath and we are doing our best to fix that. We need to honor our commitment to the Kickstarter backers and are doing our best to do so.

We will get the list of refunded customers form Deniath and try to talk to them personally about the situation. They will get us numbers but I'm guessing that was less than a dozen people.


This is completely unacceptable. Many of us bought the deal from deniath. You are still breaking promises, just to a different group of people. There is only one path to not breaking your word to anyone and you can choose to take it or not.
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maydaygames wrote:
We are sorry George, it should not have been offered at a discount on Deniath and we are doing our best to fix that. We need to honor our commitment to the Kickstarter backers and are doing our best to do so.

We will get the list of refunded customers form Deniath and try to talk to them personally about the situation. They will get us numbers but I'm guessing that was less than a dozen people.

It should not have been offered at a discount on Deniath? Are you claiming you sent out Mayday newsletters hyping the sale at Deniath, without ever even reading what it says on the Deniath front page?

Here it is, just in case you missed it: "Here at Deniath, we offer invitation-only access to deals and coupons, exclusively for us geeks, at up to 70% off retail."
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Normscoffee wrote:
This is completely unacceptable. Many of us bought the deal from deniath. You are still breaking promises, just to a different group of people. There is only one path to not breaking your word to anyone and you can choose to take it or not.

Seth's M.O. is to make it up to people who post publicly about getting screwed. For him, this has to be like a bigamist whose two wives got together. Kind of tough to weasel out when both groups are listening. Anybody got some popcorn?
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CapAp wrote:
campfire113 wrote:
especially with all the promises and guarantees that were made:
"We can guarantee that we will NOT be offering this game so cheap ever again"[/COLOR]

Was that on the kickstarter page? I just went there and it's not with the rest of the quote you posted. I'd be shocked (SHOCKED!) to find out that Seth has removed it.

Yep, and still is. The page is archived HERE in case it gets revised.
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I thought you were focusing on the concept of price fixing, which wasn't the problem. Therefore, to me, it appeared that you were making a straw man. I didn't mean to cast dispersions, but instead refocus the discussion. Sorry if it came out of the typewriter the wrong way.

agentzen wrote:
darthhugo wrote:

FWIW, I did not support this project.


Neither did I, though I seriously considered it. If I had, I would certainly be annoyed that newer customers were receiving a better deal than us Kickstarter backers, who went out of our way to support a project we believed in (or just wanted badly), even from a publisher with a checkered reputation. But would I be furious and venting that Mayday had clearly broken a legal agreement between us? I hope not.


darthhugo wrote:

I believe you are missing the whole point of this situation. That's just my opinion. I could be wrong.


How so? I believe some folks are incensed over broken promises which were never actually made. Previous and exceedingly numerous "burned by Mayday" experiences have created a deep well of bad feelings about Mayday here, which are boiling over into a maelstrom of resentment. What obvious facet of the issue am I missing?
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Richard Keiser

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This flavor of kickstarting is akin to "Hey BGGers, I'm buying some shit from Germany. Anyone want to kick in to make it so? Oh, and when the crap arrives, I'm going to sell it to some friend's cheaper than you paid me. Thanks."

It is just a BGG version of a Costco membership and nothing close to the standard kickstart concept of funding the creation of an idea and bringing it to market.

Gilby, you are a person alone on this one, but good luck with that.

Gilby wrote:
darthhugo wrote:
It really appears that the monies that were paid for bringing the items to US shores also helped fund the siblings of these items (from the same shipment) to be sold via a different marketing segment.


Really?

A company is using Kickstarter to provide funds to bring a product to market?

Who would have thought?
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CapAp wrote:
campfire113 wrote:
especially with all the promises and guarantees that were made:
"We can guarantee that we will NOT be offering this game so cheap ever again"[/COLOR]

Was that on the kickstarter page? I just went there and it's not with the rest of the quote you posted. I'd be shocked (SHOCKED!) to find out that Seth has removed it.


yes, an exact quote.
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For my own edification, could someone explain to me why Mayday's explanation of what happened (they guaranteed that *they themselves* would never sell it cheaper, which they aren't, but another outlet which they can't control is selling it cheaper) and the steps they're taking to try to fix it (trying to ensure that outlets sell it at MSRP, even though they shouldn't have to because they're being held to a promise that they never actually made but that people here seem to think that they did make) proves them to be evil duplicitous bastards? I don't quite see it, but I'm sure someone can explain it to me...
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shigadeyo wrote:
I find it really hard to believe that Mayday didn't know what Deniath was planning to do considering Mayday itself sent out an e-mail message today advertising the Deniath Private Sale...


They posted an ad for it yesterday on Facebook too.
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That's a good point and I think the answer lies in how Deniath acts as a marketer.

If they are a direct reseller/distributor and therefore purchase X inventory up front at Y cost, then they can sell at whatever price they please.

If they are a virtual marketer, much like Groupon, then they just sell marketing and get a cut of the profits. If the latter, then Mayday has control over the pricing negotiations, otherwise neither Deniath or Mayday could strike a pact that works well for both of the them.

This entire situation makes me interested in learning what bucket Deniath falls into... perhaps its both, depending on the contract?

In closing, I will continue to buy from Deniath, as I don't think they did anything wrong here. I'm bummed that my game order will be cancelled, but I'm fine with that, because I felt a bit dirty for riding on the backer's backs.

Deniath is a solid company that tries to market cool things to us geeks, and for that I will continue to support them.



rahdo wrote:
For my own edification, could someone explain to me why Mayfair's explanation of what happened (they promised that *they themselves* would never sell it cheaper, which they aren't, but another outlet which they can't control decided to sell it cheaper) and the steps they're taking to try to fix it (trying to ensure that outlets sell it at MSRP, even though they shouldn't have to because they're being held to a promise that they never actually made) proves them to be evil duplicitous bastards? I don't quite see it, but I'm sure someone can explain it to me...
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rahdo wrote:
For my own edification, could someone explain to me why Mayfair's explanation of what happened (they promised that *they themselves* would never sell it cheaper, which they aren't, but another outlet which they can't control decided to sell it cheaper) and the steps they're taking to try to fix it (trying to ensure that outlets sell it at MSRP, even though they shouldn't have to because they're being held to a promise that they never actually made) proves them to be evil duplicitous bastards? I don't quite see it, but I'm sure someone can explain it to me...


First off, they made one statement that said that they themselves wouldn't offer it cheaper. They made another statement that it would never be offered cheaper, which is a blanket statement. (""This project may very well be your ONLY chance to get WeyKick in the USA, and the price will NEVER be better!") Puffery? Possibly. Intended to deceive? I can't garner intention from a statement. In there so that people would back the KS project? Definitely.

Now, I'm not going to argue that there aren't ways to interpret the language so that Mayday didn't outright lie. However, since MayDay solicits sales from every state, they're subject to the laws of every state. There are definitely states out there that have very stringent consumer protection laws. They're not always caveat emptor, and some of the stricter ones focus on using language like this to intentionally (or recklessly) deceive consumers.

Outside of the legal argument, saying stuff like that is obviously meant to make consumers think that they're getting the best possible price. When, a month later, you partner with a company enough that you're co-marketing an item, and you know they're selling it cheaper...well, there's something morally wrong about that. The original statements were made to entice people to pay. Now that they have their money, they're enticing others with a better deal. That's just wrong.
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rahdo wrote:
(trying to ensure that outlets sell it at MSRP, even though they shouldn't have to because they're being held to a promise that they never actually made) proves them to be evil duplicitous bastards? I don't quite see it, but I'm sure someone can explain it to me...


Typical BGGers? See the complaints against Valley games back when they did preorders for Hannibal or against Z-Man back when they did preorders for Agricola, largely centered on the horrible fact that online discounting game stores would end up selling those games for cheaper than the preorder price. Same typical BGGer attitude characterized by a massive sense of entitlement.

darthhugo wrote:
This flavor of kickstarting is akin to "Hey BGGers, I'm buying some shit from Germany. Anyone want to kick in to make it so? Oh, and when the crap arrives, I'm going to sell it to some friend's cheaper than you paid me. Thanks."


Yes. The price that distributors pay will be cheaper--probably far cheaper--than the preorder price. Heck, the price that they then sell it for (to retailers) will be cheaper than the preorder price. That's how this market works.

Quote:

It is just a BGG version of a Costco membership and nothing close to the standard kickstart concept of funding the creation of an idea and bringing it to market.


Many US boardgame companies are doing nothing more than taking European titles and putting them into the US marketplace. See, for example, much of RGG's catalog.

Is that not appropriate for Kickstarter? It was accepted by Kickstarter. Are there similar projects? I really don't know. Perhaps someone who is more of a Kickstarter junkie can fill us in.

Quote:

Gilby, you are a person alone on this one, but good luck with that.


Really? I'm the only person that thinks its appropriate that a Kickstarter campaign raises funds that work to bring a project to market?
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MattShinners wrote:
First off, they made one statement that said that they themselves wouldn't offer it cheaper. They made another statement that it would never be offered cheaper, which is a blanket statement. (""This project may very well be your ONLY chance to get WeyKick in the USA, and the price will NEVER be better!") Puffery? Possibly. Intended to deceive? I can't garner intention from a statement. In there so that people would back the KS project? Definitely.

Now, I'm not going to argue that there aren't ways to interpret the language so that Mayday didn't outright lie. However, since MayDay solicits sales from every state, they're subject to the laws of every state. There are definitely states out there that have very stringent consumer protection laws. They're not always caveat emptor, and some of the stricter ones focus on using language like this to intentionally (or recklessly) deceive consumers.

Right, and so since Mayday has agreed with the geek outrage that there was an inconsistency with their original sales patter and the subsequent Deneth deal, and they're now taking steps to rectify that inconsistency so that they're sticking by what they original said on Kickstarter, they're evil... how?

Quote:

Outside of the legal argument, saying stuff like that is obviously meant to make consumers think that they're getting the best possible price. When, a month later, you partner with a company enough that you're co-marketing an item, and you know they're selling it cheaper...well, there's something morally wrong about that. The original statements were made to entice people to pay. Now that they have their money, they're enticing others with a better deal. That's just wrong.

But that's not what's happening. They're actively trying to ensure that the Deneth deal is consistent with the original deal. So again... evil because...?
 
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rahdo wrote:
Right, and so since Mayday has agreed with the geek outrage that there was an inconsistency with their original sales patter and the subsequent Deneth deal, and they're now taking steps to rectify that inconsistency so that they're sticking by what they original said on Kickstarter, they're evil... how?


Because they consistently do this, and only change policy when they get called out on it.
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