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Subject: Where are the kickstarter forums? rss

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Brook Gentlestream
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I know most of the kickstarter-related threads are moving to the kickstarter forums, and I'm subscribed there... but I don't know where they are. I don't see them on the list of forums when I click Forums at the top of BGG, and I don't think their threads are showing up on the Recent or Active threads list.

Is it a segregated subforum somewhere, like the individual game entries' forums or the guilds' forums?
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Tom Razo
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Brook, here is the starting point that leads to the Kickstarter Family Forums...

http://www.boardgamegeek.com/thread/746926/kickstarter-annou...
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Brook Gentlestream
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Huh. Thanks -- I wasn't aware it worked that way.

So, basically, it's a hidden forum? What's the point of that?


edit: Oh, I see. It's a FAMILY forum. Wow, that's not intuitive at all -- I didn't even know families had forums! Anyway, thanks for helping to solve that mystery for me.
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Evan Stegman
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It effectively *IS* a hidden forum.

I would repeatedly see posts that said:

Moved to Kickstarter forum.

So the obvious place to look for that forum is in the forums, right?



Nope.

Doesn't seem to exist.

It is in families? What the heck? The message the admin uses doesn't say 'Moved to the Kickstarter family" it says 'forum'.

And everything else in families is families of particular game series not how it is published. It doesn't make sense when there is no print-and-play family; no commerically produced family, etc..

Why in the world would these games be considered a game family when the one and only thing they have in common is how the initial funding was raised? How is that a game family? It is just some commonality in funding type and has absolutely nothing to do with the game itself like every single other family does.

To make matters worse, there are 14 pages of game families so you have to click, click, click, click, click, to even find it.

I am really baffled by the reasoning behind this.
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col_w
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EvanMinn wrote:
there are 14 pages of game families so you have to click, click, click, click, click, to even find it.


There is a way to search for families - put this in your QuickBar:

javascript: (function(){OBJ_TYPE='boardgamefamily';name=prompt('Search '+OBJ_TYPE,'');if(name&&name!='')location='/geeksearch.php?action=search&objecttype='+OBJ_TYPE+'&q='+name;})();
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Scott Everts
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Thanks for the quicklink col_w.

I have to agree, its very hard to find. I'm a BGG regular and the first time I went looking for it was annoying and non-intuitive. Not sure why the are making it so hard considering new users are never going to find it. Just give it a forum like "Press releases" and the like.
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D 4te
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where am I ????
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Harald Korneliussen
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BGG guard their frontpage jealously (though it might not be apparent, as cluttered as it is).

Kickstarter projects on the front page would be free publicity, and BGG is in the business of selling publicity especially to the likes of Kickstarter ventures.

I didn't know about this, but I'm not surprised Kickstarter-related posts are banished to a non-frontpage forum.
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Evan Stegman
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First of all, just because it's a forum, it doesn't have to be on the front page. The Complaints forum, for example, never appears on the front page.

Secondly, all sorts of press releases in the News forums of games appear on the front page. Game announcements and press releases appear on the front page all the time whether they've paid for ads or not. But if you mention Kickstarter, boom, moved to the Kickstarter family, banned from the front page and a misleading admin message is posted that directs people to a forum which doesn't actually exist.

Finally, none of this explains why it is a family unlike any other game family and not a forum as the admin message says ("Moved to the Kickstarter forum."). That's what people are talking about. Not that it is not a front-page forum but that it is not a forum at all but bizarrely considered a game family.

It is one thing not to give away free ad space to compete with what seem to be BGG related Kickstarter projects (I notice the Queen games ones show a location of Dallas, the videos are narrated by Beth and all have prominent ad space - maybe they are not official BGG projects, but there sure does seem to be a connection) but it is quite another to make it as difficult and counter-intuitive to find those competitors.
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J
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In the menu bar: Browse->Families, then Kickstarter
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Evan Stegman
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jmilum wrote:
In the menu bar: Browse->Families, then Kickstarter

You left out the last step: Then wade through 14 pages of game families to find the one and only family that is based on how the initial funding is raised then wade through 26 pages of games.

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J
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Luckily you only have to do it once as you can add it to your quickbar and also subscribe to it.
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Evan Stegman
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jmilum wrote:
Luckily you only have to do it once as you can add it to your quickbar and also subscribe to it.


That response is not at all helpful for people who see an admin message that says "Moved to Kickstarter forum" and then go looking for that forum and is dodging the issues.

Also your response doesn't address why this is considered a game family. All other game families are games of the same series. This is the one and only family that is based on how funding is raised. There is no print and play family, no commercially produced family.

Why in the world would this be considered a family when those aren't and all the other families are game series? It makes it seem like it is an attempt to bury it.

A 'Well, I'll point out how to set up a link to one person at a time when they ask about it." doesn't do much to dispel that impression.
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J
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EvanMinn wrote:
That response is not at all helpful for people who see an admin message that says "Moved to Kickstarter forum" and then go looking for that forum and is dodging the issues.

If you see that message in a thread, then you are already in the Kickstarter forum because the thread has been moved and you are reading it in the kickstarter forum.

Quote:
Also your response doesn't address why this is considered a game family.

The games are all related by being on Kickstarter. Also the forum is for discussing kickstarter in General.

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It makes it seem like it is an attempt to bury it.

No, quite the opposite. Before when kickstarter topics were spread all over the site, people that were interested in kickstarter stuff may have missed some. Now all they need to do is subscribe to the Crowdfunding Announcements thread (Kickstarter, Indiegogo, etc)
and also the Kickstarter forum if they want more topics than just the game announcements.
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Joe Mucchiello
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jmilum wrote:
The games are all related by being on Kickstarter. Also the forum is for discussing kickstarter in General.

So is there a family for games that were printed in Belgium? I need a family for games whose names end with the letter F. Because both of these things is an equally important way to group games. Answer this question, if I fund a game on INDIEGOGO.com will it go in the Kickstarter family or is there an indiegogo family ready made for that? And sponsume? rockethub? etc?

What you are calling "related" we are calling non-intuitive. No one new to the BGG database is going connect "Games on Kickstarter" with "a family of interrelated games". ESPECIALLY, if most of the people actually familiar with the BGG database do not see that connection either. If you really, really, really think this is important, add a "crowdsourced" field to the games table and allow games makers to put the crowdsource info into the game entry. Then at least under browse, one could browse the database by crowdsource origin.

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It makes it seem like it is an attempt to bury it.

No, quite the opposite. Before when kickstarter topics were spread all over the site, people that were interested in kickstarter stuff may have missed some. Now all they need to do is subscribe to the Crowdfunding Announcements thread (Kickstarter, Indiegogo, etc)
and also the Kickstarter forum if they want more topics than just the game announcements.

No, it really does look like an attempt to bury KS games. If you don't know there is a KS family, you can't find the forum.
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J
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jmucchiello wrote:
No, it really does look like an attempt to bury KS games. If you don't know there is a KS family, you can't find the forum.

If we wanted to bury it, the announcement thread would not be pinned at the top of the Press releases forum...
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Evan Stegman
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jmilum wrote:
EvanMinn wrote:
That response is not at all helpful for people who see an admin message that says "Moved to Kickstarter forum" and then go looking for that forum and is dodging the issues.

If you see that message in a thread, then you are already in the Kickstarter forum because the thread has been moved and you are reading it in the kickstarter forum.


Not necessarily, I had replied to a thread and saw that. I later went to find it and of course assumed it was in the forums and never did figure out is was a family until months later when this thread appeared.

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Also your response doesn't address why this is considered a game family.

The games are all related by being on Kickstarter. Also the forum is for discussing kickstarter in General.


That doesn't explain anything.

To repeat:

All other game families are games of the same series. This is the one and only family that is based on how funding is raised. There is no print and play family, no commercially produced family.

Why is considered a family when those aren't and all the other families are game series?

If how something is published is what makes something a game family, why is there no print-and-play family or self-published family, etc.?

Those questions remain unanswered.

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Quote:
It makes it seem like it is an attempt to bury it.

No, quite the opposite. Before when kickstarter topics were spread all over the site, people that were interested in kickstarter stuff may have missed some. Now all they need to do is subscribe to the Crowdfunding Announcements thread (Kickstarter, Indiegogo, etc)And also the Kickstarter forum if they want more topics than just the game announcements.


All of that could be done by making a Kickstarter forum instead of a family. There is no advantage to having it be a family but signficant disadvantages:

- Difficult to browse to
- Counter-intuitive
- All the other game families are game series so it doesn't fit the definition.
- Encourages the creation of DB entries for games that may never be made
- There are already 250+ games in that family. How many this time next year? In five years? It is quickly growing unweildy and way beyond the size of other families

The fact that it really doesn't seem to make much sense at all and so many questions are repeatedly ignored is what make peoples' suspicions start to kick in.

Given that, what is the benefit of a family over a forum that doesn't publish to the front page that outweighs all those disadvantages?
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Lee Fisher
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I have to admit, I had trouble finding it too!
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Brook Gentlestream
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Here is my speculation on the issue: I suspect that the admins wanted to segregate the kickstarter-related forum from the general public forums. That's not necessarily a sinister agenda. I think they had four reasons for doing this, but that these four reasons are flawed.

The following is based purely on my conjecture and comes from no official source and only a small amount of evidence, as produced in this thread:

I believe the reasons for segregated the kickstarter forums into a private "family" area away from the public forums are:

1. Kickstarter has gotten a lot of publicity lately, and users have been starting to notice and comment on the sheer number of kickstarter-related threads. In fear that some of these threads had more to do with kickstarter than games, the admins wanted to move these threads out of the public eye.

My personal opinion on this reason is that it remains unwarranted. Most kickstarter-related threads have been very on topic, and some have even led to other game-related discussions about publication, game design, artwork, related games, etc.

2. I think the administrators felt that due to the nature of kickstarter, backers would flood the forums with fundraising requests and advertisements, attempting to bolster support to get their pet game published. For this reason, I believe the admins felt it necessary to segregate all of this "on-topic spam" away from the general public.

My personal opinion on this reason is that while we have just recently seen the start of this kind of behavior, for the most part this does not happen and does not need to be regulated with such a heavy stick. The reason for this is that most of the games that garner any publicity at all here have long since met their funding goals. There's still fundraising for stretch rewards and such, but these are usually limited to one or two threads on the topic of the game itself and not a general across-the-board publicity spam. So while I feel there was a potentially valid concern here, in practice, there has been no basis for such concern.

3. I think the admins felt that too much discussion about games that are not yet published should be segregated to a particular place, much like most WIP threads are put into Game Design.

My personal opinion on this reason is that of all four of these reasons, this one needs a PRIVATE forum area the least. In fact, it makes more sense to put it in the general area with the Game Design forum or the Discussing Retailers forum.

4. The administrators don't like Kickstarter, or are cautious of it and want to minimize these discussions on the board without overtly offending anyone or sending people away. Additionally, they may be trying to appease people who don't like kickstarter, as there have been a number of users already who have made public judgments on it and perhaps the admins did not want such division in the general forum areas.

My personal opinion on this is that such caution would have made sense along time ago, but a number of successful projects have come out of kickstarter and it seems to be a valid self-publishing medium regardless of anyone's opinions on it. Granted, things like The Game Crafter and Indiegogo don't have their own forums, but then these have not been nearly as successful at putting out quality games and getting active game and publication related discussions going.


---

Based on all of the above, my advice to the admins is as follows:

Start a new forum in the general area, along with the Discussing Retailers. Maybe right above or below that, put in a forum called "Self Publishing". Move everything in the Kickstarter Family forum there and then remove the Kickstarter family.

A "Self Publishing" forum would be a wonderful addition to the BGG forums, where people can discuss kickstarter-related issues, as well as The Game Crafter, Print And Play Publications, and whatever new solutions comes up next.

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Joe Mucchiello
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jmilum wrote:
jmucchiello wrote:
No, it really does look like an attempt to bury KS games. If you don't know there is a KS family, you can't find the forum.

If we wanted to bury it, the announcement thread would not be pinned at the top of the Press releases forum...

Does this mean there will be a "Printed in Belgium" Family? It is just as logical a grouping of games as "funded on kickstarter".
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Scott Fort
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Wow... I don't get to check in here at BGG as often as I'd like so maybe there is more going on here of which I am unaware. I just know that the family designation has been perfect for me. With Kickstarter having an absolutely pitiful search function I have relied on the listing of games here at BGG to search for new entries. I can sort the family of games by year published to browse the latest entries and I can access the geeklists of Kickstarter games to see new entries there.

I don't know why there is an insistence that Kickstarter cannot be a family. Kickstarter is the one thing that connects all of those games together. Just becasue they are the only crowdfunding family now doesn't mean more will not be added later. If it bothers you that much then think of Kickstarter as a game publisher.
 
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Evan Stegman
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ScottFort wrote:
Wow... I don't get to check in here at BGG as often as I'd like so maybe there is more going on here of which I am unaware. I just know that the family designation has been perfect for me. With Kickstarter having an absolutely pitiful search function I have relied on the listing of games here at BGG to search for new entries. I can sort the family of games by year published to browse the latest entries and I can access the geeklists of Kickstarter games to see new entries there.

I don't know why there is an insistence that Kickstarter cannot be a family. Kickstarter is the one thing that connects all of those games together. Just becasue they are the only crowdfunding family now doesn't mean more will not be added later. If it bothers you that much then think of Kickstarter as a game publisher.


Publishers aren't game families. There is no Rio Grande family or GMT family or Mayfair family, etc.. So think of a non-family of games (as defined by all the rest of the families) as another non-family of games? How does that help?

It is not an insistence it just seems there are a lot of disadvantages over a forum (or even, a 'publisher') and not many advantages so people are just trying to figure out the reasons behind it.


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jmilum wrote:
In the menu bar: Browse->Families, then Kickstarter

You can also click on a Kickstarter game you already know of, then click through to the Kickstarter family from there.
 
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Joe Mucchiello
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ScottFort wrote:
I don't know why there is an insistence that Kickstarter cannot be a family. Kickstarter is the one thing that connects all of those games together. Just becasue they are the only crowdfunding family now doesn't mean more will not be added later.

So if I kickstart two games about the same topic and I want them in the same family, what family do my games go in?

Suppose something raunchier than Busen Memo become funded through Kickstart. Do I as a publish want my game associated with such a thing? Do I have any recourse against the association? An uninformed reader might assume all the Kickstarter Family games are related in some manner beyond "crowdsourcing". It is not a good method for grouping games.
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If it bothers you that much then think of Kickstarter as a game publisher.

Then put it in the publisher field, which actually takes multiple entries.


 
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Lee Fisher
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jmucchiello wrote:
ScottFort wrote:
I don't know why there is an insistence that Kickstarter cannot be a family. Kickstarter is the one thing that connects all of those games together. Just becasue they are the only crowdfunding family now doesn't mean more will not be added later.

So if I kickstart two games about the same topic and I want them in the same family, what family do my games go in?

Suppose something raunchier than Busen Memo become funded through Kickstart. Do I as a publish want my game associated with such a thing? Do I have any recourse against the association? An uninformed reader might assume all the Kickstarter Family games are related in some manner beyond "crowdsourcing". It is not a good method for grouping games.
Quote:
If it bothers you that much then think of Kickstarter as a game publisher.

Then put it in the publisher field, which actually takes multiple entries.




Given that a game can belong to multiple families and that things like "Aliens" are a Family, this seems like a non-issue.

edit: oops quote
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