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Subject: Where are the kickstarter forums? rss

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lfisher wrote:
Given that a game can belong to multiple families and that things like "Aliens" are a Family, this seems like a non-issue.

Yes, I agree.

I'm not sure why some are adopting a very negative and confrontational tone here, there's no need for that.

As far as the comment about an uninformed user being confused about the family, the description would inform them:

Kickstarter Family Description wrote:
A group that is sure to grow: games that are first published with funding gathered using the http://www.kickstarter.com/ website.


The family currently hosts 26 pages of games.
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jmucchiello wrote:
Does this mean there will be a "Printed in Belgium" Family? It is just as logical a grouping of games as "funded on kickstarter".
I've 'got' this ONE to begin with just such now: Space Rockets whistle
 
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Robert Wesley
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Maybe, this 'chap' as well? Space Hop
 
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Brook Gentlestream
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jmilum wrote:
I'm not sure why some are adopting a very negative and confrontational tone here, there's no need for that.


I'm not trying to be negative, but I am offering criticism to this decision. It's not that I'm a pro-kickstarter-forum activist, it's just that I'm baffled by this decision since it seems like a poor choice. A family forum has four major disadvantages. If not for these, then there wouldn't be much of a problem.

1) Most people will look at the forum list to see the best place to post new topics.

2) It's hard to get to the forum unless you know exactly where to go already.

3) Posts in the kickstarter family forum would not show up on forum search results.

4) Posts in the kickstarter forum do not show up on the list of Recent and Active threads.

For all these reasons, family forums don't see much activity. By putting them in a forum that has these disadvantages that discourage activity, this decision takes on the appearance of an attempt to quash kickstarter-related discussions. By putting them in a family forum, you are segregating the discussion away from the general area and out of the eyes of the public.

And we don't know why. From the responses you're giving, it doesn't sound like you know why either.

If this is how you want to do it, then I'll respect that. Those are the new rules of BGG, and we'll work with them. But if something you're doing (that maybe hasn't been thought of too deeply) is making things harder on users for no reason (and causing more work for you), I feel like we should bring it to your attention.

I think a kickstarter family is a fine idea for purposes of classification within the database. On the other hand, I think a kickstarter tag would perform the job just as well. However, restricting conversations to the family forum doesn't work very well because the family forums are flawed -- they don't interact with the rest of the BGG community and are effectively invisible. Unless that's your goal to begin with, I don't see the point of doing this.


P.S. Thank you for not moving this to the Kickstarter Forum. I know that must have been tempting.
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Daniel Danzer
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Excuse me, but -

THIS IS STUPID.
For instance, Rithmomachy is a game 1000 years old. Forunately, somebody decides to create a nice set and make a crowdfunding project out of it.

I backed it and found the link in my "Recent additions" of games I am interested in ("Wishlist"). Fine.

In the meantime, there is neither any link or hint from the game page to the kickstarter family, nor a link to the forum, where I posted a question regarding the board. This means, if this thread policy would have been implemented before, I wouldn`t have got any hint when this was kickstarted. WTF?

It takes me a search in the forum to find this thread to eventually find the thread ???

This is killing kickstarter on BGG, man.

I am not a "kickstarter man", I am not interested generally in "the new kickstarter game". I am interested in a wide variety and diversity of games, and every once in a while, one of them or a new one is funded on kickstarter. So what? You want a "youtube family" and put all video links for every video into a "youtube family" thread instead on the game`s site? No? Why not?

Why seperate the kickstarter campaign from the game entry? THIS DOESN`T MAKE SENSE.

Thanks for your attention.
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duchamp wrote:
In the meantime, there is neither any link or hint from the game page to the kickstarter family, nor a link to the forum, where I posted a question regarding the board. This means, if this thread policy would have been implemented before, I wouldn`t have got any hint when this was kickstarted. WTF?

The policy has been implemented since January. The game you mention was posted in the Kickstarter announcement thread in the Press Releases forum, which is in the general forum area.
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lordrahvin wrote:

1) Most people will look at the forum list to see the best place to post new topics.

2) It's hard to get to the forum unless you know exactly where to go already.

3) Posts in the kickstarter family forum would not show up on forum search results.

4) Posts in the kickstarter forum do not show up on the list of Recent and Active threads.

Thank you for the well thought out and courteous reply

Quote:
this decision takes on the appearance of an attempt to quash kickstarter-related discussions. By putting them in a family forum, you are segregating the discussion away from the general area and out of the eyes of the public.

And we don't know why. From the responses you're giving, it doesn't sound like you know why either.

We had two main reasons in mind:

1. follow the community rules with regards to promotion and advertising:

Quote:
Advertising and other Self-Promotion

Promoting goods or services in which you have a personal stake is generally not permitted, with the following exceptions:

* A new product or service relevant to the topic of this site may be announced in a single post in the Press Releases forum.

* Active advertisers are given more leeway to promote goods and services they provide.


Also kickstarter notices should not be posted in Hot Deals or game forums because they could be considered spam or sales type notices which don't belong in game forums. We were seeing a proliferation of: 3 weeks to go, 2 weeks to go, 1 week to go, 4 days to go, etc. being posted in game forums. Posts like that in the game forums are against the community rules.

2. Create a place where the kickstarter games could all be grouped together and be discussed. A family seemed to fit both those needs. The policy states that the games should be announced with a post to the pinned thread in Press Releases, which can then link to a thread in the family if the poster wants to do that.

This policy has been in place since January and this is really the first time this level of complaint has been levied. If the family forum is not filling the need for user discussion, then I can discuss that with the other admins and higher ups and see what can be done.


Quote:
P.S. Thank you for not moving this to the Kickstarter Forum. I know that must have been tempting.

heh, no, I was tempted to move it to Complaints
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Drew Dallas
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I agree that putting it in the family area seems to be burying it. Luckly when this started I was subscribed to a thread which got moved and so I was able to find the kickstarter forums then and subscribe to them also, if I hadn't I never would have known where to go looking for the stuff.
 
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Brook Gentlestream
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jmilum wrote:
1. follow the community rules with regards to promotion and advertising:


jmilum wrote:
Also kickstarter notices should not be posted in Hot Deals or game forums because they could be considered spam or sales type notices which don't belong in game forums. We were seeing a proliferation of: 3 weeks to go, 2 weeks to go, 1 week to go, 4 days to go, etc. being posted in game forums. Posts like that in the game forums are against the community rules.


I can respect this.

I completely agree with the need to regulate self-promotion and even the weird pseudo third-party self-promotion by proxy that Kickstarter encourages. I further agree that such posts should not go in the Hot Deals forum, General forum, Hot Deals forum, or anywhere else. Such posts should be segregated from the general community, unless included as part of your advertisement revenue.

I don't think this policy should apply to GAME forums, as these game forums are already segregated from the general community. The only people who will ever see these "advertisements" are people who are already interested in the game and are following it. It seems like just about anything that has to do with one particular game and nothing else should go in the game's forums. The public won't be exposed to these messages much -- and they won't show up in the Active and Recent threads. Further, anyone looking for threads related to a particular game's kickstarter promotion will know exactly where to go to find them. Sending posts out of a game's forum into a forum for the game's family, doesn't make too much sense to me, especially if the post won't be relevant to any other games.

jmilum wrote:
2. Create a place where the kickstarter games could all be grouped together and be discussed. A family seemed to fit both those needs. The policy states that the games should be announced with a post to the pinned thread in Press Releases, which can then link to a thread in the family if the poster wants to do that.

This policy has been in place since January and this is really the first time this level of complaint has been levied. If the family forum is not filling the need for user discussion, then I can discuss that with the other admins and higher ups and see what can be done.


I think the main problem was that this policy was set to restrict kickstarter promotion, but the net has been cast too wide -- what is considered promotion has been cast so broad that every single post seems to be moving over there.

This especially holds true to the game forums. There's really no reason to restrict self-promotion in an already segregated forum dedicated to the discussion of one particular game, where people go to discuss that game, even during the kickstarter process.

That being said, I can see why you would want to keep unpaid "advertisements" away from the general public eye. I can't think of a suitable compromise for that (other than charging the kickstarters, of course), but I will think on it.

--

edit: The kickstarter-exclusive family forum may work, actually. It makes sense that you'd want to exclude such "ads" from the general public, but it also makes sense that kickstarter ads may benefit to being placed in places where kickstarter-users watch. I think I could accept this a lot easier, given the reasons for the restrictions, if the kickstarter family forum itself was advertised more. Perhaps, at the very least, with a couple of pinned topics in the usual offending forums (General, Hot Deals, Game Design, etc) with a clear subject heading of "This is how to find the Kickstarter Forums" or something like that.

Right now, even the announcement for the kickstarter family forums is somewhat stealthily announced. It is in a topic that has nothing to do with the family forums, written only as an instruction for advertisers. There's really no reason why anyone else would read it. Having the kickstarter forum itself advertised a little might make everyone happier. Instead of "Moved to Kickstarter Forum" messages, maybe there could just be reminders of where such discussions should be posted so that everyone could see it?

I still don't think your "all kickstarter topics should go in the kickstarter family forum" policy should apply to individual game forums, however, unless they are radically off topic and have nothing to do with that game.
 
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lordrahvin wrote:
I don't think this policy should apply to GAME forums, as these game forums are already segregated from the general community.

It's not that we want to segregate content from the community, it's that we want to keep game forums for game content. As an example, this thread: Fleet funded in under 12 hours!!! Thanks to all... was one that was moved to the kickstarter forum. It's not related to the playing of the game. People subscribed to the game, by and large, do not like to get subscription notices for that type of thread. People searching for past threads on game content would not find that thread useful.

it is related to kickstarter and so it was moved to the appropriate forum.
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lordrahvin wrote:
Right now, even the announcement for the kickstarter family forums is somewhat stealthily announced. It is in a topic that has nothing to do with the family forums, written only as an instruction for advertisers. There's really no reason why anyone else would read it.

I don't follow. It is pinned at the top of the "Press Releases" forum, titled "Kickstarter Announcements thread". Anyone that is interested in new games should follow the Press Releases forum. That thread is very visible.
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jmilum wrote:
duchamp wrote:
In the meantime, there is neither any link or hint from the game page to the kickstarter family, nor a link to the forum, where I posted a question regarding the board. This means, if this thread policy would have been implemented before, I wouldn`t have got any hint when this was kickstarted. WTF?

The policy has been implemented since January. The game you mention was posted in the Kickstarter announcement thread in the Press Releases forum, which is in the general forum area.

Why then did I find the thread in the forum section of the game? It was my usual way for the last days to go there first and check answers in the only thread of the forum. Now it is gone there - "moved to the kickstarter forum".
 
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duchamp wrote:
Why then did I find the thread in the forum section of the game?

The poster did not fully follow the policy:
Octavian wrote:
1- Post a thread in the Kickstarter family forums: http://www.boardgamegeek.com/forum/915012/kickstarter/genera... - you can keep that thread updated with any new developments. Interested readers will subscribe to your thread to make sure they get all the up-to-date news. Please don't post multiple threads or post threads anywhere else - they'll just end up getting moved to that forum anyways or possibly deleted.

2- Post a link to your Kickstarter forum thread here [Press Releases Kickstarter Announcement Thread]. Anyone interested in keeping-up on the latest Kickstarters can subscribe to this thread and will be notified when something new is posted here.


The poster of the thread you mention halfway did the second: Re: Kickstarter Announcements thread

But then posted a thread in the game forum, which violated the first.

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Thank you for your answers in this thread. Given your responses, I have a better idea of how the kickstarter Family Forums are to be used and will do my best to let people know how to reach these for discussions that should take place there. I hope others will, too. As people become more aware of this forum's existence and access to it gets easier (if its truly not meant to be a secret), then some of these issues may become moot points.

I ask that you reconsider your stance toward moving kickstarter threads out of the game forums that are about those games. They don't pertain to rules or reviews, but most of them very much discuss content and seem suitable for a few posts in the General forum. They are not in any way dissimilar from existing threads in those forums that discuss promos, release dates, pre-orders, and availability status. They seem like suitable discussion for a "general" forum area related to that game, and i think you'll find that most of these "10 days to go!" threads do turn into a serious discussion about the game, its components, its rules, or similar issues. The difference in which threads these go into is dependent on whether the original poster is trying to reach the general kickstarter community, or have a discussion with the current backers/followers/fans of the game.

As an example, one such recent thread (the Gunship "4 days to go" thread) was a discussion about the kinds of components that should be in the game. Nothing else. The bulk of that thread had very little to do with kickstarter, and would only appeal to people already interested in Gunship. There was no reason to move it out of the game forum.

I also ask that, at some point in the near future, you consider trying to find ways to make the Kickstarter family forum more accessible to the general community or to new BGG users. But we'll see how things go for now. In the meantime, we'll do our part to do let people know that it exists and how to get there.

Again, thank you for your responses. Understanding the reasoning behind the decision helps me to accept the necessity of this inconvenience.


1) Most people will look at the forum list to see the best place to post new topics. (This seems like it will be a continual problem under this arrangement.) CON

2) It's hard to get to the forum unless you know exactly where to go already.(I still think this forum should be made more accessible and be better advertised -- not necessarily the content within the forum, but the existence of the forum itself. Perhaps its up to us to do that, though.) ---

3) Posts in the kickstarter family forum would not show up on forum search results.This is a really unfortunate side effect of the family forum. CON

4) Posts in the kickstarter forum do not show up on the list of Recent and Active threads.I accept that this was a desired result in order to limit self-promotion and protect BGG revenues. PRO
 
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lordrahvin wrote:
I also ask that, at some point in the near future, you consider trying to find ways to make the Kickstarter family forum more accessible to the general community or to new BGG users.

I've already started the steps to initiate that discussion with the appropriate parties, but we will work under the current rules unless and until a change is made to the policy.
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jmilum wrote:
This policy has been in place since January and this is really the first time this level of complaint has been levied. If the family forum is not filling the need for user discussion, then I can discuss that with the other admins and higher ups and see what can be done.

Obviously it took this long for those of us complaining to notice the policy in action.

I only dislike it because a family of game should be related in a manner that does not refer to its funding. There should be some reason the game is considered part of the family that comes from the games themselves. I rather see KS as a publisher than a family. (But I'm sure others would object to my preference as well.)
 
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jmucchiello wrote:
I only dislike it because a family of game should be related in a manner that does not refer to its funding. There should be some reason the game is considered part of the family that comes from the games themselves. I rather see KS as a publisher than a family. (But I'm sure others would object to my preference as well.)

The purpose and function of the families system is to link together games that have a common element or are part of a common series. There have to at least be three games before a family can be considered. The common element here is that all games used Kickstarter. I realize that you think a family should not include that element.

On the other hand, using Kickstarter as the publisher would would not be correct. Kickstarter did not publish anything, it also did not provide the funding, the crowd did.
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"Did YOU "C" the one where Papa Smurf BOUGHT & BROUGHT 'ads' on BGG for their 'Kickstarter' kind? huh? did you? Do you WANT 2?!?" whistle
 
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Smurfette modest
 
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There must have been a moment at the beginning, where we could have said no. Somehow we missed it. Well, we'll know better next time.
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jmilum wrote:


This policy has been in place since January and this is really the first time this level of complaint has been levied. If the family forum is not filling the need for user discussion, then I can discuss that with the other admins and higher ups and see what can be done.



You probably missed it because it was off-topic but this thread from nearly a month ago had several people confused by how to find the forum:

Re: Dear Kickstarters - I want co-op games

whistle
Even as a 5-year BGG veteran I found it very non-intuitive to find this "hidden" forum. The first place I thought to look for forums, being, well, the forum link from the menu, does not have a link to it.
Maybe even creating a link in the forum directory that goes to the family forum would solve the problem.
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lordrahvin wrote:

I know most of the kickstarter-related threads are moving to the kickstarter forums, and I'm subscribed there... but I don't know where they are. I don't see them on the list of forums when I click Forums at the top of BGG, and I don't think their threads are showing up on the Recent or Active threads list.

Is it a segregated subforum somewhere, like the individual game entries' forums or the guilds' forums?


Kickstarter Games Guild
 
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There must have been a moment at the beginning, where we could have said no. Somehow we missed it. Well, we'll know better next time.
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shigadeyo wrote:
lordrahvin wrote:

I know most of the kickstarter-related threads are moving to the kickstarter forums, and I'm subscribed there... but I don't know where they are. I don't see them on the list of forums when I click Forums at the top of BGG, and I don't think their threads are showing up on the Recent or Active threads list.

Is it a segregated subforum somewhere, like the individual game entries' forums or the guilds' forums?


Kickstarter Games Guild


That's not it, that's the Kickstarter Guild forum. He's talking about the general Kickstarter forum which is on the Kickstarter Family page.
 
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jmilum wrote:
jmucchiello wrote:
I only dislike it because a family of game should be related in a manner that does not refer to its funding. There should be some reason the game is considered part of the family that comes from the games themselves. I rather see KS as a publisher than a family. (But I'm sure others would object to my preference as well.)

The purpose and function of the families system is to link together games that have a common element or are part of a common series. There have to at least be three games before a family can be considered. The common element here is that all games used Kickstarter. I realize that you think a family should not include that element.

It is not a common element at all. Knowing that you like one game from Kickstarter does not mean you will like another one. Usually a family of games involves some connection that is inherent to the game play and or theme of the games involved. That's why the word is "family" and not "Indirect Connections".

So why isn't there a "has a board" family? That is far more interesting (is this is a pure card game or is there a board) than what money was used to sell the game. How about "Contains red player pieces"? I don't like games where I can't play red. A family with this information would actually have some value (along with similar families of other colors) since the information they convey actually has something to do with the game play.

How the game was funded has no bearing on how the game plays. That is my objection to this family. It barely qualifies as a loose connection between the games. But, obviously, we're now talking in circles. So I've made my disagreement known and that's as good as I'm going to get.
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I still don`t get it. The forum section of Escape: The Curse of the Temple is full with kickstarter-related threads. For instance:
Escape now available on Kickstarter!
Escape has funded! Now giving the first full expansion FREE to all backers!
Or look at the "Glory to Rome" forum full of "Black Box" amd kickstarter news threads.
I cannot see any sense or consistency, sorry.
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I don't think you are that unfamiliar with BGG to know that there are *many* examples of threads that violate the rules. The admins cannot monitor every single thing posted on this site, it's pretty big.

Those were never flagged and likely never came to the attention of an admin.

Make sense now?
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