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Subject: Playing time rss

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Brian Berg Asklev Hansen
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In the And.Ab. forum the playing time for that game was estimated at 4-6 hours and one hour less that that if playing the shorter game (one less propaganda round)

How would you estimate playing time for Cuba Libre?

I am considering cancelling my preorder for Andean Abyss since it is extremely unlikely that I will ever get to play a 4+ hours multiplayer game.
2-3 hours is much more realistic, so I am really hoping Cuba Libre falls into this category...


Brian
 
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Volko Ruhnke
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Hi Brian. Yes, I would estimate CL as shorter than AA, because there are fewer cards, fewer spaces on the map, and fewer pieces. 2-3 hours is a good guess (but it's a guess, at this early stage).

Sorry that you are considering cancelling AA! There are lots of options besides 4-6 hour face-to-face multiplayer: solitaire, 2-player, Vassal, and (as you mention) short game.

Best regards! Volko

Edit: Also, playing Andean Abyss (even if you don't finish a full multiplayer game) will help prepare you for Cuba Libre, since they use the same core system. AA will be out this summer, CL not until next year, I'm sure...
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Brian Berg Asklev Hansen
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Thanks for your reply Volko

Quote:
Hi Brian. Yes, I would estimate CL as shorter than AA, because there are fewer cards, fewer spaces on the map, and fewer pieces. 2-3 hours is a good guess (but it's a guess, at this early stage).


Perfect!

Quote:
Sorry that you are considering cancelling AA! There are lots of options besides 4-6 hour face-to-face multiplayer: solitaire, 2-player, Vassal, and (as you mention) short game.


I know all about the other options but the problem is that I am pretty sure all my (too few) 2 player sessions will be with other game series, as my regular gaming partner have a couple of game series we really dig.

THe solitaire aspect is really cool, and might still lure me into buying (along with previews of final artwork), but I already have a lot of solitaire games as well as a lot of 2-player games I enjoy playing solitaire. In addition I am not sure I would like a 4-6 hour long solitaire game, as I tend to go for shorter games when I play solitaire.

Quote:
Also, playing Andean Abyss (even if you don't finish a full multiplayer game) will help prepare you for Cuba Libre, since they use the same core system. AA will be out this summer, CL not until next year, I'm sure...


Very true! But I am not sure I can get people to play a system again after a bad experience with it (and not being able to complete a game in a session counts as a bad experience to many of the gamers I know), so I think a better(but much more long term) aproach would be to get Cuba Libre first and use it to introduce them to the series - and then get them hooked on the idea of a similar game with more stuff going on (bigger map, more units etc).

Another problem is one of subject matter.
Cuba is just a much more "hot" subject than 90ies Columbia with my gaming group (myself included), and this matters a great deal when choosing which game to play - especially when it comes to long and/or complex games.

While I am on the subject, I really think you should reconsider the subject for Vol.3.
The COIN series would probably benefit a lot by giving people some less obscure games first to get as much attention as possible before heading of to explore equally interesting (historically speaking) but less "hot" (in the eyes of the average gamer) subjects.

I think a Vietnam, Iraq or Afghanistan game will be perfect for vol.3 as most people know more about these COIN wars and probably find them more interesting/hot (especially gamers who come from countries involved in these wars).

Brian
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Volko Ruhnke
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Quote:
...might still lure me into buying (along with previews of final artwork)...

Well, then, more of that on the way!

Quote:
subject matter ... this matters a great deal when choosing which game to play

True that.

Quote:
I really think you should reconsider the subject for Vol.3. The COIN series would probably benefit a lot by giving people some less obscure games first to get as much attention as possible before heading of to explore equally interesting (historically speaking) but less "hot" (in the eyes of the average gamer) subjects. I think a Vietnam, Iraq or Afghanistan game will be perfect ...

It's sound advice. I intend to do 2003-2010 Iraq (Long Hard Slog) for sure, Vietnam probably, and Afghanistan possibly. I'm convinced that the COIN system will accommodate each of those topics well.

Seems there is always a tension between introducing more folks to topics that are rich but under-explored, and getting more folks to give a game system a try. I'm not at all settled on Bush War for volume 3 -- afterall, I had intended it as volume 2 until Jeff Grossman and Cuba Libre came along!

Thanks! - vfr
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Gordon J
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Brian: I find Andean Abyss perfect for Vassal if you have ever played games that way. I will never find 4 people to play this in F2F,but on Vassal, I am playing a 4 player game, and it is a lot of fun.

Volko: Before I tried AA, I would have suggested something that people could connect with for a Vol. 3 of the COIN series, but now, after playing AA, and getting to know the history behind the game, I really like getting to know about something different and unknown (but then again I know you have to think a little about how it will get sold and who will buy it.)

I think Cuba Libre seems to be a perfect fit, something I haven't really seen a lot of games do, but yet, it's something most people know about in a historical sense.

I'd be interested in something set in Africa.
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Volko Ruhnke
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Thanks Gordon!

Yup, that's the rub: whether to explore and try to illuminate a fresher topic for a smaller number of players, or just give a better known topic a new twist.

By the time that I have to commit to a topic for COIN Volume 3, I'm hoping that a number of folks like you who have played the system will weigh in...

best, vfr
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Cristian Cano
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I'm really hoping that Cuba Libre's final version could be played in 2-3 hours. If not, I'm afraid I'll have to cancel my P500 because it would be impossible to see the light in my group.
 
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Brian Berg Asklev Hansen
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Quote:
It's sound advice. I intend to do 2003-2010 Iraq (Long Hard Slog) for sure, Vietnam probably, and Afghanistan possibly. I'm convinced that the COIN system will accommodate each of those topics well.
+
Seems there is always a tension between introducing more folks to topics that are rich but under-explored, and getting more folks to give a game system a try. I'm not at all settled on Bush War for volume 3 -- afterall, I had intended it as volume 2 until Jeff Grossman and Cuba Libre came along!


I just tried the system using VASSAL and am now totally hooked.
My friend is hooked as well, and his first question was: "Is there an Iraq game planned for the series"

We are both young (by wargamer standards). One of my first memories of following the news on TV was the 1991 Gulf War (when I was 10 years old), and the War on Terror and war in Iraq has been going on for most of my adult life, and has seen participation of troops from my own country, so these conflict means much more to us than older conflicts as we can´t relate to them in the same way.

Brian
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Volko Ruhnke
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Hi Cristian! I expect that completing Cuba Libre in less than 3 hours will be the norm, at least once players are familiar with the game system. It could go longer, perhaps, with a group that engages in extended negotations throughout play.... Cheers! Volko
 
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Volko Ruhnke
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Brian -- Thanks for hooking your friend!!

Quote:
"Is there an Iraq game planned for the series"

Yes! It will be called Long Hard Slog and cover 2003-2010. Probably COIN Series Volume IV, possibly Volume V (I need to get away from the MidEast for a while after LABYRINTH).

Factions in Long Hard Slog would be Coalition (tan), Government of Iraq (dark blue and light blue), Sunni Resistance (Former Regime Elements and al-Qaeda in Iraq -- black with green crescent), and Shia Resistance (Sadr's militia and Iran-supported extremists -- green with black crescent).

Major differences from both Andean Abyss and Cuba Libre would include the presence of two not entirely aligned Counterinsurgency forces, one of which is a foreign force under withdrawal pressure. Sunni Resistance Special Activities would include IED and Car Bomb; Shia Resistance would include Rocket; and Coalition would include Find Fix Finish (representing advanced counter-network operations).

Should work well. -- Volko
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Brian Berg Asklev Hansen
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Iraq sounds really! cool.

What would it take to pursuade you to do it next, and delay yor break from the Mideast?

Brian
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Volko Ruhnke
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Hi Brian. Thanks! Not sure what it would take, but Volume III is not set. Angola is my lead candidate, and I'm also looking at Vietnam. Since there is plenty of time while Cuba Libre continues testing and development, I'm looking forward to hearing what Andean Abyss players would prefer to follow Cuba. Best regards! - vfr
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Brian Berg Asklev Hansen
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Quote:
I'm looking forward to hearing what Andean Abyss players would prefer to follow Cuba. Best regards! - vfr


It´s good to see that you plan to include the (gamer)population in your COIN campaign- That is a sure way to win our hearts and minds (as well as our money)


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Kurtis Swekla
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I preordered both games even though I am much more interested in the theme of Cuba Libre, but I figure AA will be a good start into the COIN series and tide me over until CL comes out. As for more in the series I would vote for Angola as I am personally sick and tired of Iraq and Afganistan in the media. I like using the games more as a basic learning tool and thus prefer games in more vague or lesser known situations. Maybe Afganistan during the 80's with the Soviet invasion?
Can't wait for AA to come out and I agree the playing time is a bit on the long side but even so a few games a year could be played at that length with 4 players in my group.
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Volko Ruhnke
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Quote:
I would vote for Angola as I am personally sick and tired of Iraq and Afganistan in the media. I like using the games more as a basic learning tool and thus prefer games in more vague or lesser known situations.

I'm of the same bent. And if someone else does a game on the Iraq War before I do, that would further diminish my rush to do it. That said, the topic of Iraq 2003-2010 deserves a focused treatment, and no such game is yet out there that I am aware of. - vfr
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Kurtis Swekla
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And once Andean Abyss comes out and people get into the system hopefully the Cuba Libre pre-orders will shot up quickly.
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Jeff Grossman
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I'm thinking Ireland Libre will be next...

all factions will be represented in shades of gray.
 
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Volko Ruhnke
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Well, as it has turned out, I got the opportunity to work with Brian Train on the next volume in the series, and it will be Afghanistan. Much more on that anon. Its title is A Distant Plain. Which GMT will print first, that or Cuba Libre, I suspect will come down to preorders. Volko
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Greg S
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Volko wrote:
Well, as it has turned out, I got the opportunity to work with Brian Train on the next volume in the series, and it will be Afghanistan. Much more on that anon. Its title is A Distant Plain. Which GMT will print first, that or Cuba Libre, I suspect will come down to preorders. Volko


I'm very excited about this Volko! My preorder has been placed!!
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Volko Ruhnke
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. . . I hasten to add that the ideas for other volumes -- Angola, Iraq, Vietnam -- are still very much alive. This was just some low-hanging fruit!
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Brian Berg Asklev Hansen
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Quote:
This was just some low-hanging fruit!


And you made a good call to pick it! We will enjoy this delicious piece of fruit while we look forward to later entries in the COIN-fruitsalad :)

Brian
 
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Andrew Laws
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Volko wrote:
. . . I hasten to add that the ideas for other volumes -- Angola, Iraq, Vietnam -- are still very much alive. This was just some low-hanging fruit!


I'm interested in how you'll represent Vietnam. The NLF vs. NVA, and ARVN(Diem regime) vs. US don't seem to be as antagonistic as the four factions in Andean Abyss or A Distant Plain.

I would have thought that would work better as a 2-player game mashing up elements of the Twilight Struggle and 1989 games with the COIN system.

Hmmmm. Now you've got me thinking..
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Volko Ruhnke
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It will be 4-player. Please stay tuned....
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Andrew Laws
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"I play to win, as much or more than any egoist who thinks he's going to win by other means. I want to win the match. But I don't give in to tactical reasoning as the only way to win, rather I believe that efficacy is not divorced from beauty."
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Volko wrote:
It will be 4-player. Please stay tuned....


Are you kidding? Guaranteed playtester right here. Particularly if this card is included:

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Volko Ruhnke
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Hey, that's not bad!!
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