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Subject: PzKpfw II (Fl) rss

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Mark Evans
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OK, the PzKpfw II (Fl) has a special ability to place smoke at exactly 3 hexes inside the VCA. If you change VCA to use do this, then you used the same Case A penalties as if you were using a smoke mortar. There is a lot missing here from the rule, I am wondering if anybody has any thoughts on this.

For example is line of sight necessary to the hex where the smoke is placed?

If the PzKpfw II (Fl) is hull down, can it use this ability (i.e. similar to using other hull based weapons)?
 
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Spencer Armstrong
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My take:

It's a sD, so it uses those rules except as amended.

So...

-LOS is not required (that IS listed in sM, but this note does not refer there). That's filthy, BTW and makes the Flamingo even nastier than I realized. Smoke a vehicle you can't see, drive up and burn them with no penalty to your attempt...

-Hull down is allowed. It's not a weapon, so not subject to the prohibition on bow mounted weapons.

FWIW, this sort of thing also comes up on the Wasp (British note 72). It's different, but similar.

S
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Miikka Sohlman
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Of course LOS is required, otherwise it would be totally inconsistent with every other arc "weapon" in the rules (Mortars, Smoke Mortars). I see it's not mentioned in the note but it must be just an oversight.

I mean come on.
 
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Carl Paradis
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Hipsu wrote:
I mean come on.


Gee... Wonder why I gave away for free my 95% complete ASL game collection a few years ago?
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Spencer Armstrong
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Hipsu wrote:
Of course LOS is required, otherwise it would be totally inconsistent with every other arc "weapon" in the rules (Mortars, Smoke Mortars). I see it's not mentioned in the note but it must be just an oversight.

I mean come on.


I agree, that seems to make more sense, but I don't see a rule or a clarification to that effect.

S
 
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Miikka Sohlman
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Spencer Armstrong wrote:
I agree, that seems to make more sense, but I don't see a rule or a clarification to that effect.

Perry to the rescue?
 
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Spencer Armstrong
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Hipsu wrote:
Spencer Armstrong wrote:
I agree, that seems to make more sense, but I don't see a rule or a clarification to that effect.

Perry to the rescue?


Probably worth asking, I'd say. I just went through Klas's collection and found nothing.

Play One Last Mighty Hew as the Germans NOW, before it changes!

S
 
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Mark Evans
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That is the very scenario that brought this question to mind.
 
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Miikka Sohlman
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About the Hull Down question, I have no idea rules wise. Spencer is probably correct about it not being a weapon.

Reality wise a wall shouldn't be a problem considering where the mortars were placed (at the back)

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Chuck Tewksbury
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Spencer Armstrong wrote:
My take:

It's a sD, so it uses those rules except as amended.

So...

-LOS is not required (that IS listed in sM, but this note does not refer there). That's filthy, BTW and makes the Flamingo even nastier than I realized. Smoke a vehicle you can't see, drive up and burn them with no penalty to your attempt...



I believe you take a LOS hindrance +3 to these shots - FT are immune to TEM but not hindrances I'm pretty sure.
 
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Chuck Tewksbury
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ctewks wrote:
Spencer Armstrong wrote:
My take:

It's a sD, so it uses those rules except as amended.

So...

-LOS is not required (that IS listed in sM, but this note does not refer there). That's filthy, BTW and makes the Flamingo even nastier than I realized. Smoke a vehicle you can't see, drive up and burn them with no penalty to your attempt...



I believe you take a LOS hindrance +3 to these shots - FT are immune to TEM but not hindrances I'm pretty sure.


or +2 for dispersed white smoke counter
 
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Spencer Armstrong
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ctewks wrote:
Spencer Armstrong wrote:
My take:

It's a sD, so it uses those rules except as amended.

So...

-LOS is not required (that IS listed in sM, but this note does not refer there). That's filthy, BTW and makes the Flamingo even nastier than I realized. Smoke a vehicle you can't see, drive up and burn them with no penalty to your attempt...



I believe you take a LOS hindrance +3 to these shots - FT are immune to TEM but not hindrances I'm pretty sure.


FT IFT attacks are. FT TK attacks are not.

From the HE & Flame To Kill Table:

"Only TK# Modifiers are: Half if Long Range, +1 if CE & +1 if OT."

FT TKs... In motion, into and out of smoke, against motion target...doesn't matter. So long as you're in the next hex, TK is 8. Roll it and watch 'em burn 72% of the time. This is a key tactic with Flamingos. Smoke 'em in, drive up, don't stop and burn 'em. They have nearly no chance of hitting you and you have a very good chance of killing them.

S
 
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Brian Roundhill
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Spencer Armstrong wrote:
ctewks wrote:
Spencer Armstrong wrote:
My take:

It's a sD, so it uses those rules except as amended.

So...

-LOS is not required (that IS listed in sM, but this note does not refer there). That's filthy, BTW and makes the Flamingo even nastier than I realized. Smoke a vehicle you can't see, drive up and burn them with no penalty to your attempt...



I believe you take a LOS hindrance +3 to these shots - FT are immune to TEM but not hindrances I'm pretty sure.


FT IFT attacks are. FT TK attacks are not.

From the HE & Flame To Kill Table:

"Only TK# Modifiers are: Half if Long Range, +1 if CE & +1 if OT."

FT TKs... In motion, into and out of smoke, against motion target...doesn't matter. So long as you're in the next hex, TK is 8. Roll it and watch 'em burn 72% of the time. This is a key tactic with Flamingos. Smoke 'em in, drive up, don't stop and burn 'em. They have nearly no chance of hitting you and you have a very good chance of killing them.

S


Yep, FT are the ultimate tank killers. Does not matter how big they are, does not matter where they add, they all burn in the end.
 
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Nadir Elfarra
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Scary stuff - will have to remember that if/when I face one of the little buggers!!
 
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Robin REEVE
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The chapter H note says :

Quote:
The smoke discharger, if successfully fired, allows the placing of a smoke counter at three (only) hex range within the tank's VCA. Any VCA change pertinent to using the sD is treated as per D13.32.


The VCA change penalty is the only concession to the sM rule.
Otherwise, it is a sD.

That means :
- range blocked at 3 hexes ("only")
- within VCA (and not TCA)
- LOS not needed (hey, it can fire over a building, woods or any obstacle... or even through one!)arrrh
- no +2 moving/motion penalty
- no Hindrance penalty
- it can fire from a building or deep jungle ()

I understand that some people can feel their sense of reality deeply contradicted by those facts, but that is how the rule is displayed.

One could not argue that the vehicle note was written before the sM rules were, as it directly refers to them.
Rules' lawyering supplemental argument : chapter H comes after chapter D, so it supersedes the latter unless otherwise stated.

So, until there is an erratum about that vehicle note - and, frankly, I do think that something should be done about it, as my "feeling of reality" is ruffled to - I will play along the present rules.
ASL is to WW2 what D&D is to Middle Ages : I don't mind having a super duper smoke puffing dragon around.
 
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Miikka Sohlman
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Firing from inside a building, and through another 3 story building standing in between, with a fixed angle smoke grenade projectors of all things...

I think I'm gonna puke... gulp

Who wants to file this to Perry?
 
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Mark Evans
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It's funny that they didn't just say. This vehicle has sM9 that must be used at exactly 3 hexes and fires within VCA rather than TCA. That seems like that would model the behavior of those smoke projectors more accurately.
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Brian Roundhill
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drmark64 wrote:
It's funny that they didn't just say. This vehicle has sM9 that must be used at exactly 3 hexes and fires within VCA rather than TCA. That seems like that would model the behavior of those smoke projectors more accurately.


Since it comes from the first module, I would just call it a bad design decision. Your description makes a lot more sense to me.
 
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Spencer Armstrong
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drmark64 wrote:
It's funny that they didn't just say. This vehicle has sM9 that must be used at exactly 3 hexes and fires within VCA rather than TCA. That seems like that would model the behavior of those smoke projectors more accurately.


Since they could have said that and didn't, sure makes it seem like that was NOT the intent. At least from where I'm sitting.

As an aside, the scenario mentioned above (One Last Mighty Hew) is absolutely terrific, highly, highly recommended.

S
 
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Robin REEVE
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Hipsu wrote:
I think I'm gonna puke... gulp
Turn your head, so you don't hit the rulebook or the playing area.

Welcome to ASL physics, by the way.
You are about to have a lovecraftian shock encountering the non euclidian, undescriptible horror of reality. Beware!robot
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Robin REEVE
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Roundhill wrote:
Since it comes from the first module, I would just call it a bad design decision.
The problem is that the sM rules already were in the RB.
So the BV designers were aware of them.

Now, seriously, I do think that there could be some fix of that special vehicle rule, so as to reduce the distance from common sense that it generates.
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Stephen Stewart
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Spencer Armstrong wrote:

It's a sD, so it uses those rules except as amended.

-LOS is not required (that IS listed in sM, but this note does not refer there). That's filthy, BTW and makes the Flamingo even nastier than I realized. Smoke a vehicle you can't see, drive up and burn them with no penalty to your attempt...

-Hull down is allowed. It's not a weapon, so not subject to the prohibition on bow mounted weapons.


All Vehicular Smoke Dispensers have LOS to the intended target hex in EACH of the different types.

sM is the only one which allows range AND requires LOS.

Since the action is EXACTLY the same, firing up and away from the vehicle, LOS is required...

There in no (EXC: ) stated in the vehicle note saying LOS isn't required...otherwise you can be in the center of a building surrounded by building hexes for 80meters in all directions and place the smoke rounds at a 6th cave 3 hexes away at NIGHT with a NVR of 0.

I know there are exceptions, but you have to give a little common sense on this one. If the rules didn't specifically state that you can do something outside the structure of the rules, then you can't do it. Don't play with what the rules don't allow, play with what they do allow and other than indirect fire with the AID of a spotter, you can't target shit Out of LOS... Sure effects can happen via FFE OoLOS but there are rules for that.


NO, just no.
 
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Spencer Armstrong
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Cite a rule?

I agree with you conceptually, but the rule just isn't there. Hopefully, Perry will sez-ify. His common sense has bearing here, yours and mine do not.

S
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